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Old 08-24-2000, 04:51 PM   #51
Magma
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Smile

I think seeing women on the training floor is cool.

I think seeing aikidoka training hard is cool.

I put those ideas on separate lines because to me they /are/ separate. Regardless of gender, attack without intent is a waste of time, an embarrassment, and potentially dangerous. So if we change our attitude or lose our focus with any uke for even just a moment, we run the risk of injuring our partner perhaps worse than the injury we were trying to "protect" them from. Now I know you are saying that losing our focus isn't the heart of the matter when we're talking about working with women, but I say, "Isn't it?"

If I change the trajectory of my punch, or second guess where my hand is going during an ukemi because of fear of what might get touched, my mind is focused on my partners gender, and not on my attack/my technique. It's the same if I go easy with a partner for any other reason than that the person needs more experience. If I go easier because of gender, then it is a failing on my part in not keeping the correct mindset.

As far as women on the training floor, I enjoy seeing that because it brings more body types to practice with. In my dojo, we run the spectrum of body types:
I'm 6'7", 250lbs., we also have
6'2, 320 lbs.
6'3, 200 lbs.
5'5 110 lbs.
5'4 140 lbs.
And everything in between. However, we have only two actively attending females. So when I train with a woman, I may be training with a new body type that I am getting used to, but that's the same as training with men, too.

What it comes down to, guys, is women have been working with their bodies longer than we have been working with their bodies, and they are more aware of their bodies than we will ever be, so they know better than we do what they can take and what they cannot take. I think you can be sure that you pay a woman as high a compliment believing that she is capable of doing something until she tells you otherwise as you insult her by never allowing her to show you that she can. (Then again, replace all of the 'she's with 'he' and the same truth holds).

The ONLY difference I feel working with women, and the only defensible difference I think anyone can raise, is that a technique is going to be slightly different done to a woman because of the way their body is proportioned (lower center of gravity, wider hips, etc.) But that just gets me back to body types...

M
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Old 08-24-2000, 05:02 PM   #52
Erik
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Protecting nage

Quote:
Magma wrote:
If I change the trajectory of my punch, or second guess where my hand is going during an ukemi because of fear of what might get touched, my mind is focused on my partners gender, and not on my attack/my technique. It's the same if I go easy with a partner for any other reason than that the person needs more experience. If I go easier because of gender, then it is a failing on my part in not keeping the correct mindset.
This is a little bit off-topic but my first instructor found himself teaching defense against the bayonet whilst in the military. One of his students decided to protect him by striking off the line. Student winds up with a knife in his arm (lost partial use of it) and my instructor wore dentures.
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Old 08-25-2000, 04:44 AM   #53
Victor
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Take care of your uke

no matter if your uke is a woman or a man.
That's what I wanted to say.
I'm not practicing Aikido to use Aikido techniques on the street.

that means, that:
I think, practicing martial art in order to use its techniques outside the dojo is wrong. Even if you are a woman.

And if anybody blaims me in being too soft to uke - well I really don't care. That's my own way of practice. And I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
Because I know how it ends with harder techniques on women - I've already written about bruises...

just my humble opinion.

BTW, I never said that I don't like practicing a technique with a woman. I do like training with women.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-25-2000, 10:06 AM   #54
akiy
 
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Re: Take care of your uke

Quote:
Victor wrote:
And I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
Because I know how it ends with harder techniques on women - I've already written about bruises...
Quick question, Victor. How many different women do you practice with, say, in an average month? What are their approximate ranks?

-- Jun

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Old 08-25-2000, 10:24 PM   #55
Greg Jennings
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I subscribe to Saotome Sensei saying: No sex on the mat.

I think we have to extend that to other demographics also. We need to accept our partners for who they are, do our best to be a good partner to them and move on.

YMMV,

Greg Jennings
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Old 08-26-2000, 12:25 AM   #56
stratcat
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Talking training w/ women

Hmm. The question of whether or not you train differently w/ a woman as opposed to a man necessarily pertains to each person involved. Personally I don't think there's much difference between how 2 guys train together and how 2 ladies train together. But when it's a guy and a lady... there we run into murky waters. I figure it depends on each person's point of view, and I am particularly in agreement with those who have said that you have to tailor your technique to uke's height, weight and ability. It's been said before, but it bears repeating, you don't koshi a 300lb gorilla the same way you koshi a dainty 100lb lady.

Having said that, I find it difficult to train w/ women because 1) I am a short guy (about 5'9) so I'm more or less their height and 2) I'm fairly new in Aikido (I've been training for about 6 months), so I will come right out and say it: I am afraid of accidentaly grabbing (in the midst of a tecnique, never on purpose, mind you)a girl's... umm, sensitive parts!

Andy G.
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Old 08-26-2000, 01:17 AM   #57
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: training w/ women

Quote:
stratcat wrote:
It's been said before, but it bears repeating, you don't koshi a 300lb gorilla the same way you koshi a dainty 100lb lady.
Andy G.
I guess I have a different experience with aikido. Especially koshi waza. I do koshi waza with 100 pounders the same as 300 pounders (like all waza). The uke provides all of the energy necessary.

The energy the uke is putting out is what they either absorb or redirect with their ukemi. All you need to do with any waza is "entice the uke into putting themselves into a position where gravity makes it impossible for them to regain their posture and they have to fall.

300 pounders fall like 300 pounders and 100 pounders fall like 100 pounders. Sex of the uke has nothing to do with it. Ability and experience is the determining factor in how much speed and intensity is used when we practice with anyone.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 08-26-2000, 11:53 AM   #58
DJM
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Circle Re: Take care of your uke

Quote:
Victor wrote:


And if anybody blaims me in being too soft to uke - well I really don't care. That's my own way of practice. And I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
Victor,
I don't want you to take this too personally, but isn't this a somewhat selfish sentiment? Surely Aikido is about both uke and tori supporting each other's Aikido.. If an uke asks you to apply technique with more intensity, I feel it's your duty as good tori to oblige - within reason of course - just as if uke is struggling to take ukemi, when you will need ease off a little..
If you're not allowing uke to benefit fully from your practice with them - by improving their ukemi, and their fitness - it changes Aikido away from the cooperative practice it has at the moment, to something closer to a tori/victim style of practice..

Just my personal opinion, and I'm sorry if I seem to be over-reacting, but I feel that ukemi is vital to Aikido practice.. (Perhaps because I'm having so much trouble learning it, I apreciate the difference when I finally manage to perform good (or at least not terrible) ukemi ...)

Peace,
David

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On Water, Placid and Calm,
A Fish Touches Sky
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Old 08-28-2000, 06:00 AM   #59
Victor
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Re: Re: Take care of your uke

Quote:
akiy wrote:
Quote:
Victor wrote:
And I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
Because I know how it ends with harder techniques on women - I've already written about bruises...
Quick question, Victor. How many different women do you practice with, say, in an average month? What are their approximate ranks?

-- Jun
One shodan, one 2kyu, one 3kyu, two 4kyu, one 6kyu and some other women students have no ranks yet.

I like to practice with everyone.

Each keiko I practice, I practice at least one-two techniques with women students.

Each one of them performs techniques her own way, and it is interesting to practice with them all.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-28-2000, 06:09 AM   #60
Victor
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Re: Take care of your uke

Quote:
DJM wrote:
Quote:
Victor wrote:


And if anybody blaims me in being too soft to uke - well I really don't care. That's my own way of practice. And I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
If an uke asks you to apply technique with more intensity, I feel it's your duty as good tori to oblige - within reason of course - just as if uke is struggling to take ukemi, when you will need ease off a little..
If you're not allowing uke to benefit fully from your practice with them - by improving their ukemi, and their fitness - it changes Aikido away from the cooperative practice it has at the moment, to something closer to a tori/victim style of practice..

Just my personal opinion, and I'm sorry if I seem to be over-reacting, but I feel that ukemi is vital to Aikido practice..
IMHO, you don't have to perform a technique hard to make uke work.
I like aikido techniques, based on kuzushi and dynamics. These techniques make uke think about such things like tai-sabaki and ukemi.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-28-2000, 08:35 AM   #61
Magma
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Women on Women

Maybe I'm taking my experience and applying it to the whole, but across the aikido community, I would say that there are far more men than women in the art. So anybody, man or woman, who works with a female partner is working with the gender less common. In other words, it may be just as new for a female nage to work with a female uke... I'm wondering if they see their technique change in any way working with a woman as opposed to a man?

M
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:11 AM   #62
Erika
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Thumbs up Re: (back to koshinage)

2. - She is an UKE -
I have to be very careful when applying the technique: women don't like bruises very much... [/b][/quote]

Please do not generalize! I don't mind having bruises as long as they are not on my face (I work in customer service). What makes me angry is that people refuse to train properly with me because of prejudices like that. Ok I'm female and little, but I try to be serious with my practising. "I can't hit a woman" - kind of comment guarantees that I'll both throw harder and make locks more painful for that person. If someone is too hard on me, I can ask them to lighten. but most often my opponents treat me too gentle. Am I supposed to learn something like that?
I feel straight up offended by getting special treatment.
I just want to be respected as an aikidoka. Nothing more.

erika
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:16 AM   #63
Victor
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Re: Re: (back to koshinage)

Quote:
Erika wrote:
What makes me angry is that people refuse to train properly with me because of prejudices like that. Ok I'm female and little, but I try to be serious with my practising. "I can't hit a woman" - kind of comment guarantees that I'll both throw harder and make locks more painful for that person.
Do you really think that such a behavior is Aikido?

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:24 AM   #64
Erika
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Re: Re: Re: (back to koshinage)

"I can't hit a woman" - kind of comment guarantees that I'll both throw harder and make locks more painful for that person.[/b][/quote]
Do you really think that such a behavior is Aikido? [/b][/quote]

Is looking down on me because of my sex/looks aikido? are we not supposed to be equal at dojo? I'm just far too frustrated being treated like that. the majority of my opponents behave, but there are those too that don't. What I'm trying to show to these people is that I'm not a fairy: I won't fall apart by pain or bad ukemis.

Erika

p.s. I should have calmed down before writing my first message. I'm a bit too spontaneous, but aikido is a great tool in learning patience.
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:45 AM   #65
Victor
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Re: (back to koshinage)

Quote:
Erika wrote:
Is looking down on me because of my sex/looks aikido?
For me, a hard technique is a sign of looking down, not the soft one. I think, that it is much harder to perform a technique softer, than harder.

Quote:
are we not supposed to be equal at dojo? I'm just far too frustrated being treated like that.
Is performing the techniques softer discriminating?
I have no idea why do the women hate soft techniques

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:55 AM   #66
Magma
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Re: Re: (back to koshinage)

Quote:
Victor wrote:
I have no idea why do the women hate soft techniques
Victor, if I may speak for women, they don't hate soft techniques. They hate being treated differently on the mat. They hate the implied belief that they are too delicate to take the same treatment as any other uke. If you threw every technique soft for every uke, no one would have a problem.

I, myself, do not like soft techniques 100% of the time... if I'm in that situation I'll normally go to one of my sempai and asked to be thrown around until I'm out of breath. So I do not blame women for taking a stand on this one.

M
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Old 08-28-2000, 10:01 AM   #67
Victor
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Re: (back to koshinage)

Quote:
Magma wrote:
If you threw every technique soft for every uke, no one would have a problem.
Please, take a time to read my replies to this thread more carefully - I DO throw every technique SOFT for EVERY uke.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-28-2000, 10:10 AM   #68
Magma
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Re: Re: Re: (back to koshinage)

Sorry, I realized I apparently contradicted myself in that last post, let me clarify:
Quote:
I wrote without thinking how it sounded:
If you threw every technique soft for every uke, no one would have a problem.

I, myself, do not like soft techniques 100% of the time...
I meant that no one would have a problem as far as the discussion of gender went... if you threw soft for everyone then no problem. Since you throw women softer, there is a problem.

Then - later, new thought - I don't like soft all the time. I like to be pushed.

Hopefully that clears up my thinking...

M
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Old 08-28-2000, 10:48 AM   #69
Magma
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Re: Re: Re: (back to koshinage)

Victor, I did go back and read your posts (I was worried that I had confused what you said with someone else), and this was what I found.
Quote:
Victor wrote:
I'll always perform a softer technique when I'm practicing with women.
So change from the adjectives of "soft" and "hard" to the comparitives of "softer" and "harder." Do you go softer on a woman than the harder techniques you'd use on a man simply because she is a woman?

At the risk of becoming inflammatory, let me draw a comparison.
Quote:
Victor wrote:
I have no idea why do the women hate soft techniques
Quote:
Segregated America of the 1960's said:
We have no idea why the blacks hate having their own drinking fountain
It's not that you're going too softly. It's that you're going softer on them... And softer or harder simply because of gender I would argue is wrong.

JMO
M
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Old 08-28-2000, 06:17 PM   #70
Dan Hover
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Unhappy you know

I was going to say something....until I read those last few posts, yikes!!!

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 08-28-2000, 06:21 PM   #71
Nick
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It would appear we're beginning to make arguments that have already been made, at the expense of the people they are aimed at- I'd say there's not much more that can be said.

As stated before:

An opponent is an opponent. Period.

Kanpai,

-Nick

P.S- if there's a flame war comin, tell me... I'll be ready

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 08-28-2000, 07:23 PM   #72
Cas Long
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Red face Where's The Harmony?

All,

Please be aware that if we were talking about any other group within Society,
(& particularly within the UK) that there is such a thing as the "Equal Opportunities Act" within Law.

May I stress to all my well respected colleagues featured in these Forums that
I am in particular, speaking both as a Woman and as a Female Aikidoka
therefore; I HATE to separate the sexes @ the best of times,and & find it sad that within the the world of Aikido, that women have to justify their existence on the mat, just as in the way that they fought for the right to vote....come on Guys- I never saw an Episode of "The Flintstones" where either Fred or Barney wore a hakama....

Andrew, if you treat all your Uke as equal, this is great!

Ca, women have a lot of work to do on the mat; not in terms of technique, but
in terms of attitude......

Maybe if we are seen as the "fairer sex"
we can treat all males as rare-steak-eating fighter-pilots & throw them "over-the-top" & hard in every technique, while we look after the kids in the cave,awaiting our evening meal.

This is IRONY, so please, male Aikidoka
need not respond! I would like us all
to evolve on an equal footing in our Aikido training.....maybe we need to address how women apply technique, not
only how they receive it.

I am extremely proud of my Aikido practice, because I have really worked hard in a male-dominated art, & relish
the thought of training with anyone, despite their background..........

Please let the sexes unite- this is "harmony"- the exception I would always make is training with beginnners (of either sex)

[Edited by Cas Long on August 28, 2000 at 07:03pm]

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 08-28-2000, 09:17 PM   #73
akiy
 
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Just a quick little snippet I was going to post in another thread but decided it may make more sense here.

From what I've seen, our teacher uses women as much as the men. During training, he throws them just as hard as the men. One of my previous teachers wrote about him that "he has thrown [her] so hard that spit flew out of [her] mouth and snot flew out of [her] nose. [She's] been covered with bruises but he has never hurt [her]."

That is all.

-- Jun

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Old 08-28-2000, 09:24 PM   #74
guest1234
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hi, tried to reply earlier, but this machine hates me.
first, Magma, whoever you are, i like how you think. good question about how women train with women. i--at least--train the same as with men. i think it cannot be said enough that how a partner falls depends on the strength and sincerity of their attack. if my uke does a good honest attack, male or female, big or small, they fall about the same. probably because i am too small to muscle anyone above say 10 years old. as for bruises, i think we've covered that it seems not to be the women who are bothered by them, so forget that worry. the only time i get a lot of them anyway is when the technique is done INCORRECTLY, ie, lots of muscle making up for poor posture, footwork, balance/grounding, etc, but i am afterall a beginner so i guess i should not criticise....so if any of you are seeing a lot of bruises or 40 foot lofts on your ukes, you may want to take a good look at how you are doing things. i don't get bruised from my falls, from strong grips, or the occasional atemi connection. but for me to correctly do the technique, i need an honest attack. to give less is selfish and wastes both of our time on the mat. i do not think the solution is for women to throw men harder---again, this is just muscle. uhmm, i think that is what we are NOT supposed to rely on. if by harder you mean faster, that's a different issue, but i usually assume a partner who throws slowly either does not know i can take the ukemi (so i tell them i can) or is themselves frightened by the fall (i ask about that when i am nage next). so Erika, next time just smile nicely and ask if that guy refusing to throw you is afraid of the fall himself. and sometimes nage is just going slowly because he/she is trying to figure out the technique. i think the solution is simple: treat your partner just as you would want them to treat you. not as you think you would want them to treat you if you were them. just as you---right now--want to be treated. which means if they ask you to go slower/faster/harder/ easier, well, try to do so (the only exception being attacking harder or faster than you can take ukemi). uke's role is to help nage train, which includes this kind of adaptation (to me, at least). if i'm uke and nage doesn't want to throw me as quickly as i can fall, that's his/her option...but i'd hate to see my male colleagues miss out on the opportunity to throw someone who likes to fall just because i'm female. the only exception i'd make to that is when a senior student, fearing 'hurting' me, doesn't put enough into the technique for me to feel it; now that is stealing my chance at learning.
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Old 08-28-2000, 11:52 PM   #75
Chocolateuke
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U all should have been born in the women rights movment or at least in my 8 th grade social studies class. that said I feel women give me a better and purer throw them men. this meaing women most of the time get my balance easier than men. no I am not free falling I think women just know how to do the throwes better u know wars have been fought in similiar issues lets not have a post war
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