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Old 08-17-2000, 06:31 AM   #26
Cas Long
Location: England
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Wink Yonkyo

Hi,

In my experience, Yonkyo proves more effective on the thinner, more tensile arm , & is more "difficult" to apply on an arm which is thicker.....this is because the technique relies on the compression of the radial nerve which appears closer to the surface of the first type of arm than the latter.

However, although Yonkyo pressure is "easier" to perform on a more slender
arm,it is possible to perform it on a thicker arm if the movement involved in exposing the radial nerve is three-dimensional; therefore the hips play a greater part in the technique than the arms.

Strong, centralised hip movement should always overcome the strength in one arm,
especially when the Uke's balance is completely taken, & everything remains in the Nage's centre.

Hope this helps.......

And, just to add to Andrew's comment,we should all take it easy on Beginners....(but irrespective of sex!) Don't forget, that you could have a female Beginner in Aikido, who is 4th Dan in Karate-you never always know the complete background of the people you train with!

[Edited by Cas Long on August 17, 2000 at 07:01am]

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 08-17-2000, 06:51 AM   #27
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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Posted while I was writing my last post....
"If a big man tries to rape an Aiki trained women whose big male training partners had always.."
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!
Sorry, but this is all really missing the purpose of Aikido. If you want self defense from rapists or muggers, seriously, take up Krav Maga or something. You're talking years before Aikido will be effective in this situation (although you should take it up anyhow...). In aikido practice, your order of priority here should be 1: don't injure your partner, and 2: do your best to let them train well. The only way to understand the pupose of aikido is by constant training, and that takes time.

The main point I've been trying to me is that treating women differently is a mental problem that some men need to overcome. This allows better training for both, but the purpose of Aikido is NOT for self defense or victory in a fight. Fighting skill is an eventual consequence, NOT an aim, of Aikido.

At my senseis last dan grading, actually, some guy was stabbed in the head when he didn't block a yokomen tanto strike from some girl strongly enough, and had to sit out the rest. I don't know if it was related to her being a woman, but if it was I'll bet he'll never make that mistake again..
andrew
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Old 08-17-2000, 07:21 AM   #28
Victor
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Quote:
ca wrote:
Hey Victor,
You can bruise me any day ! you seem like you would be fun to work with.
Thank you, ca!
Many people (men & women) think the same way so I have much problems choosing whom to say onegaishimas...

Quote:
ca continues:
As for yonkyo, everyone is different, and i have my own prejudices there that were pointed out to me: i don't feel the pressure point, and one senior once told me it was because i'm on the small side, and smaller folks have smaller, hard to find nerves...
I can disagree. One of my fellow Aikido-mates (BTW, a woman) isn't very tall, but isn't very slim also, she doesn't feel yonkyo (and ikkyo-osae looks very funny with her, too). So I have to destabilize her in order to apply the technique.

[Edited by Victor on August 17, 2000 at 07:23am]

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-17-2000, 07:35 AM   #29
Victor
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Re: Men Bruise Too.......

Quote:
Cas Long wrote:
Hi,

Where is it written that techniques have to be executed differently on women than on men?

Certainly, there are clear anatomical differences between the sexes, but I have never experienced any of these difficulties in my years of training either as a nage or as an uke, and above all, as a woman.

Please do not see us as inferior to male aikidoka........

Thank You...
I can agree with you - men bruise, too.
But women bruise more often than men
for example, on ikkyo almost all the female students have bruises after each practice of defences against shomen/yokomen uchi: many male students are just stopping the hands of their uke... But because the arms of a male student are generally more dense than of female students', many female students get bruised more often than male students, you know.

It's sad to see when a girl rubs his forearms saying "pplease, mmmake itt sofftterr"

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-17-2000, 07:45 AM   #30
Victor
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Quote:
phantom wrote:
If a big man tries to rape an Aiki trained women whose big male training partners had always been easy on her she would be raped, unable to defend herself, because she had been treated differently.....because she had not had the proper knowledge and did not have the proper training to teach her how to act and alter her responses.
I've said "take care of your uke"
(uke - the one who attacks tori)
It doesn't mean you shouldn't attack your tori at full strength and speed. (only if your tori asks not to attack him/her too fast)

Just my opinion.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-17-2000, 08:25 AM   #31
Cas Long
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Wink

Victor,

Thanks for the reply!

Certainly in the beginning, you can expect bruising from the receiving/blocking of Yokomen strikes,however, I would say that Dojos should teach the correct Ukemi for this (I don't mean "fall" by this, but to "receive through the body"); absorbing
through the body (& especially the hips) is vital (as with my previous Yonkyo post, one-dimensional, muscular Aikido is extremely limiting!)

Two arms crashing together will result in bruising- the correct angle of the arms, lowering the centre of gravity, & a flexible spine are also vital.

Failing this, Arnica is very good!

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 08-17-2000, 01:32 PM   #32
giriasis
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Unhappy hmmmm....

Quote:
andrew wrote:
"And martial arts are a contact sport people, both men and women, who participate are consenting to this."

Aikido is NOT a sport.***

...Aikido trains body and mind simultaneously, competitiveness encountered in sport hinders this mental development. ...Aikido is practised co-operatively, and it's purpose is repeatedly stressed as "the way of great harmony and great love for all beings."
I agree that is true. However, I was really using the word sport in an overly broad and all encompassing meaning that includes all activity with a partner. I should have been more accurate. Aikido is a contact activity. I was not intending to imply that we are trying to be competitive in aikido. And let us please leave the competitive debate to another thread.

In martial arts much contact occurs with the resulting harm. A person who joins a martial art anticipates a certain amount of damage despite the amount of effort taken to not harm the uke. The damage being minor bruising -- the issue at hand.

In order to be co-operative, one still must interact with their partner. One as a good uke must still help teach their partner by showing the weaknesses in their application of their technique or they will never learn aikido properly. One will never learn to be harmonious if they are never learn to deal with strong attacks -- whether those attacks are physical, mental, spiritual, in or out of the dojo or in the home or on the street.


Quote:

"This brings me much closer to reality if I am ever faced with this situation on the street."

The question should be whether it brings you to a better understanding of Aikido. I think it'd take several years for Aikido to become "street effective"...people on the street generally stike rather than grab anyhow. Learn Aikido for what it is, the self defense will arrive through it. (Ok, I know you still don't want loose grips, though.)

I find a two-fold purpose in the study of aikido self-development and self-defense. However, I only discussed self-defense because it had the most relevance to your fear of harming female partners. And I also wanted to bring to your attention that I choose aikido because of its effectiveness against stronger attackers. In addition, many other women may be like me, and I want to encourage you to help us learn to be effective sooner. If you are softer on us earlier on, it will take us even longer to become effective on the street.

Anyhow, in aikido we still must commmit our attacks. I want to learn from a committed attacked not a weak well-meaning one. The disservice you are doing to your female nages and ukes are still the same no matter whether the purpose is self-development or self-defense.

Quote:

Incidentally, I don't think pointing out female yudansha can take Ukemi has any relevance when you're throwing a beginner. I know all the spiders in Ireland are harmless, I still have an irrational fear of handling them. Likewise, I'd tend to be easier on a female beginner. (doh!)
You should be easy on a beginner no matter the gender until you know that they can take harder ukemi and breakfalls. I am not saying these things to say you are a bad nasty man, but to encourage you to look at your fears from my point of view.

I know all to well that Aikido gives us lessons for each indiviual to learn, and that those lessons are not always learning how to do iriminage right. But lessons about who we are as people and how we can better ourselves.

I am glad you are sharing this with us because you are helping me understand my fellow man as well.

Anne Marie


[Edited by giriasis on August 17, 2000 at 01:59pm]
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Old 08-17-2000, 05:54 PM   #33
Mike Collins
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I'm nicer to women because I like them more than other men. I am not threatened by women. No woman ever stole a date from me. No woman ever beat me up. No woman ever kicked dirt on me.

I like to hurt men more cause they make cool noises when they fall really hard.
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Old 08-17-2000, 06:33 PM   #34
Nick
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well put Mikey... it's all about the funny noises when they fall .

In all seriousness though... the sex of your partner shouldn't matter any more than race, religion or sexual preference. We train to leave these discriminations outside the dojo when we enter, train earnestly thinking not "that's a woman, I'll throw her easier" or "that man is black, I'll throw her harder." Perhaps we should think "This is my opponent. I will use the best of my abilities to end this conflict without hurting this person or myself."

And what of all that discrimination you left at the door? Hopefully you'll have trained hard enough to leave them there, and maybe, hopefully, they will die, for they will not be needed anymore...

-Nick

[Edited by Nick on August 17, 2000 at 06:35pm]

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 08-17-2000, 08:26 PM   #35
guest1234
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i think if a person (male or female) is getting a lot of bruises from blocking shomen- or yokomenuchi, then one (or both) of the partners might be blocking with the 'edge' of their arm, so bone hits bone, rather than using a rolling of the arm, so the initial contact is with the (even on women) more 'padded' back of the arm. but again, who cares about a few bruises here or there. if a partner (male or female) says the grip is too tight, then adjust for that partner (not the entire sex ).
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Old 08-18-2000, 06:33 AM   #36
andrew
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"You should be easy on a beginner no matter the gender"
I thought the point was that some men tend to go pathetically easy on women beginners? There's easy and patronising....
I LIKE this debate.
andrew
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Old 08-18-2000, 01:05 PM   #37
guest1234
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yes, Andrew, so do I...and hopefully everyone can learn a little---i'm always surpirsed to find out the thought behind someone's actions (often different from what i suspected).
I would interpret 'easy on beginners' to mean don't throw them if they don't know how to fall, or any harder/faster than they know how to fall---men or women.
as a female, i learned ukemi as quickly as i could for two reason: 1) to be the best uke i could, so to help my partners train---and hopefully get good training in return, and 2) so big nages wouldn't have to worry about throwing me. My falls may not be pretty sometimes, but only once have i got hurt (and i never missed a minute of training due to that fall)---so i wish men wouldn't worry about me. the same with grabs---for gosh sake, make contact you guys. not because i'm doing this for self defense---never did, don't now, won't ever---but contact is important to technique. it's tough to do techniques when shomenuchi stops 2 feet above my head and i'd have to jump up to get uke's arm, or nearly chase uke across the mat to get his hand to touch my wrist for katate dori. i've never met a guy who threw me too hard, or who's attack was too fierce to work with...i have met the opposite problem. trust me, if i didn't want to do Aikido, i wouldn't be here. And thanks to all of you for explaining what concerns you.
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Old 08-18-2000, 01:48 PM   #38
Erik
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Quote:
ca wrote:for gosh sake, make contact you guys. not because i'm doing this for self defense---never did, don't now, won't ever---but contact is important to technique. it's tough to do techniques when shomenuchi stops 2 feet above my head and i'd have to jump up to get uke's arm, or nearly chase uke across the mat to get his hand to touch my wrist for katate dori.
I don't think it's because you are a woman. I (6', 200 pounds and solid) constantly run into the problem of getting people to follow through on a strike. Even then I've got to get them to actually strike me and not the space to the right or left of me. My usual technique to correct this is to simply stand there. It gets obvious pretty quickly. Plus, I can look smug and really irritate someone when I want to--gives them extra incentive. People don't get that it isn't fake unless it's fake.

Also, sometimes this sort of training gets conditioned. I spent my first 2 years pulling punches and limiting myself. It wasn't until my current sensei pointed this out, at a seminar, in front of everyone, in his unique ascerbic style, that it hit home to me. Things have been a might different ever since.
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Old 08-18-2000, 02:11 PM   #39
giriasis
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
"You should be easy on a beginner no matter the gender"
I thought the point was that some men tend to go pathetically easy on women beginners? There's easy and patronising....
I LIKE this debate.
andrew
Andrew please complete my quote. By misquoting me you change the meaning of my statement. Please add "...until you know that they can take harder ukemi..." These words are very important to what I am saying.

It is good to be sensitive to your partners. I have found that with most sempai that I work with that we start slow and move up and work faster and harder. Now, if the person already knows me, we just go for it.

Also, you were the one that said you were going easy of female beginners. That is patronizing. Why not male beginners, too? If someone is new (read 1-2 months practice) there is a good possibility that they may not have good ukemi or be comfortable with taking a big fall right away. I see this in new male partners, too.

But, the rest of my point was that we should be only so sensitive until the uke is comfortable with the ukemi, then increase the committment of our attack. That is not patronizing. That is being a good sempai.

Anne Marie
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Old 08-18-2000, 02:25 PM   #40
guest1234
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Erik,
Doesn't standing there and getting punched hurt? serious question. Some of the guys in my new dojo do that, i guess because they are used to folks not being sincere in their attacks...my first sensei was VERY strict on a sincere attack, and since punches are not my strong suit anyway, i find myself at the last moment trying to stop my tsuki as i realize it is making contact with my nage's solar plexus. even with me putting on the brakes (not much, as i have as much force as my 110 pounds can muster already committed), and allowing for the fact that i still 'hit like a girl' (or a guy who'se never punched someone before )---hard to remember all the steps of keeping things aligned correctly---i'm still amazed that that doesn't hurt.
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Old 08-18-2000, 03:30 PM   #41
Erik
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Quote:
ca wrote:
Erik,
Doesn't standing there and getting punched hurt?
I only do it when I've noticed they are missing me by about 2 feet (right/left or above). Somebody who knows how to punch gets it pretty quickly so I don't have to stand there. Most beginners can't punch or strike so it doesn't hurt much even if they do make contact. Actually, it doesn't hurt at all because they aren't hitting you.

I do recommend you judge people by a method other than their belt color. You need to watch how they move. Sometimes those white belts can be tricky.

Now someone who can really punch, I'm getting out of the way, assuming I can. I'm not into pain, it hurts.
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Old 08-18-2000, 08:49 PM   #42
Keith
Dojo: Susquehanna Aikido
Location: York, PA
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Quote:
Victor wrote:
No women Aikidoka ever told me not to bruise her. I just don't like when a woman has bruises.
You do realize that you've completely changed the source of your problem with training with women, don't you? Before you said that women don't like bruises. Now you're saying that YOU'RE the one who doesn't like them. It's okay not to want to bruise someone, but why doesn't that extend to ALL your training partners?
Quote:
It is very easy to bruise when applying yonkyo.

So, my question is:
How to apply yonkyo on women?
The same way you apply yonkyo on men. Don't worry so much about grinding your knuckle into the nerve. Concentrate instead on controlling uke's center through the elbow. The nerve is just grins and yuks. Best compliment I ever recieved in the dojo was "You're the only person who has ever done yonkyo on me where it was effective without leaving a bruise."

Keith
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Old 08-18-2000, 09:22 PM   #43
Mike Collins
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Because I am a big guy, I tend to be very gentle with everyone until I feel they are up to more strenuous force.

The sad fact though is, that I am more gentle with women simply because I feel more protective towards women. If that makes me a patronizing, insensitive pig, then thats cool; I'm gonna be true to my feelings and personality. I like to be a little harder on guys, because it tends to make them go a little harder with me; my experience is, until I know a woman pretty well, if I go hard with her, she'll tend to get defensive and get smaller, and I don't want to cause that in anyone.

I have also trained with some pretty good women who have caused me to get a bit smaller, until they got me turned in the right direction. If I get to be as good at helping others as they are, I will probably go ahead and do things their way.

Oh yeah, and I like the cool noises guys make when the hit the mat.
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Old 08-18-2000, 09:55 PM   #44
zen711
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a few thoughts.

wow. a few of my favorite topics. hope ya dont mind if i take this time to vent some ideas out here. first, as far as women go, there is still a giant leap that must be taken in the aikido world as far as women are concerned. yes, due to our society, women, especially beginners, are treated as being much more fragile than men. for some, as men make up a good portion of martial arts schools in general, this may be a good way to start out so as not to discourage them into thinking, hey this is a rough and tough guy thing and cause them to leave. however, as women progress, i believe there is a much greater sense of respect that must be shown towards them that is currently not present. the simplest reason i will say is this. i believe women's potential as an aikidoist will not be reached if we continue to treat them differently on the mat. in its truest form, the techniques of aikido are most effective with fluid and completely relaxed motions. i think we all know this as this is the thing stressed most by o'sensei...that strength was NOT necessary. in our society, men grow up and create this inherit reaction to dangerous situations and really any physical activity with strength and often aggression. call it growing up with a sense that stength is most important or from trying to fit a macho point of view...whatever is, it is quite obvious for many men how hard it is when first starting aikido. most men when in a confrontation can clearly be seen having all their energy rise up to their shoulders and chest and all their muscles tense. most women however have not developed this automatic response. yes, they too get scared and certain reactions to stressful and physically exerting situations are similar. but in no way are they so quick to have all their energy fly to wrong areas (as far as aikido is concerned). therefore, if everyone was treated and taught as equals, i believe that women would and are much better and quicker to learn how to return to their center and keep their energy focused and their body relaxed. i just think that discrimination may be getting in the way of letting them truly develop their abilities. Also. as far as ukemi is concerned. ERIK, at the beginning you may not want to jump in and ram everyone in the face/chest/wherever, to avoid anyone passing judgment on you too quickly. however, once you get to know the people you are training with fairly well and they see you're serious about training, i highly suggest that you do hit them. keep in mind it does not have to be hard. a slow attack can still have an incredible amount of energy and be focused and get the point across if you make contact. but the fact is this; first, it is hard enough in aikido to practice the same techinique and not realize how prepared your body is since it is dealing with the same attack over and over again. there is always a certain amount of assumption and safety in knowing what attack is coming that takes away from the "reality" or even the effectiveness of your practice. so a good focused attack not only will be more realistic as far as what your nage may one day have to deal with to save their life (worse case scenario),but it will also help them by teaching them what it is really like to deal with the different kinds of energy, rather than having some kind uke dance around to make their technique look good. plus, when training with experienced yudansha, it is my opinion that having the technique performed well when you are giving a truly dedicated attack teaches you more about the technique than when you yourself are nage. oh, quick note, do not start attacking faster than you can take the ukemi for. you attack fast, your nage will expect you to be able to adjust to whatever he does at the same speed. so, when you start to feel comfortable, start giving slow focused attacks and as your ukemi imporves increase the speed but stay focused. if your nage, regardless of whether they are higher or lower rank is busy standing around, looking at the clock, or simply if they do not make the correct move, feel free to follow through and make that ontact. wake em the hell up. if they start hitting you when they are uke just to "get back at you" cause they think you're just being rough or if they ask you what the hell you're doing, you tell them hey, you either feel some slight impact here and learn to do the technique correctly, or you wait till theres a knife in this fist on the street or someone whos gonna follow up that punch with many more. hoenstly, if they agrgue past that, feel free to kindly bow and walk away to find someone else who really wants to train. ok. nuff for now. happy training all
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Old 08-19-2000, 06:58 AM   #45
Nick
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One of the kodansha in my organization is a woman, one of the head instructors where I want to learn Shinkendo is a woman... women shouldn't be given any more special treatment as beginners than men should, and like men, should have to make the decision that's right for them.

-Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 08-19-2000, 08:32 AM   #46
andrew
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"It is good to be sensitive to your partners"
..which is a seperate topic to the one raised. I also (repeatedly) pointed that going easier on female aikidoka is a bad thing, but if people didn't have bad habits we wouldn't need aikido.
The issue I saw raised was "does this happen?" which was clouded by "ha, women can take ukemi like anyone else" which is also an irrelevant (and anyhow obvious) point.
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Old 08-19-2000, 03:20 PM   #47
guest1234
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Andrew,
I agree, treating women differently in any way (easier or harder) because they are women, is wrong. and yes, it does sometimes happen, usually going too easy. by this, i don't mean i want everyone and their brother to do their best to block my technique---we all know what the technique requires, so men and women can easily thwart their partners---but just give me a good, honest attack. like i said before, the guy who 'takes it easy' on me by stopping his attack 2 feet away from me does two things---makes it hard for me to practice the technique as shown, and implies he thinks i'm unable to handle the attack or get out of the way. the other side of the coin is the guy who feels sincerity requires resistance at all costs, smiling smugly when he has stiffened his arm (that is about the size of my body) in an attempt to prevent ikkyo, ignoring the fact that he presents a tempting elbow target. i'm sure it is equally hard on the guys, who, for whatever reason, really don't want to get thrown/grabbed/punched particularly hard, but do because of the same attitude that prevents some folks from giving a good attack against females (eg, the folks who say 'i'll take it easy on her, and get my workout next turn i get a male partner'). i think we'd all do better if we just treated each other as individuals.
colleen
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Old 08-19-2000, 03:50 PM   #48
Erik
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
"It is good to be sensitive to your partners"
..which is a seperate topic to the one raised. I also (repeatedly) pointed that going easier on female aikidoka is a bad thing, but if people didn't have bad habits we wouldn't need aikido.
The issue I saw raised was "does this happen?" which was clouded by "ha, women can take ukemi like anyone else" which is also an irrelevant (and anyhow obvious) point.
Not obvious to everyone or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 08-19-2000, 03:57 PM   #49
Chocolateuke
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wow... wow... gee.. wow..

Nice post lots of personal conversations... hehe

anyhow I treat women and men diffrent at diffrents times. 5-10 akidoka in teens class is a women great huh? my sensei he treats us all the same ( sex wise but if we have begginers they are treated like begginers they have to learn how to fall and stuff). I treat girls diff in diff situations like cheahs grab I grab for teh gi on a guy but a girl I go for the neck or upper part of gi ( to advoid some very privet places eheh) on a quy who is resisting ill sometimes wreastle ( only if I know that person and not oftin because it is compition) if a girl resist I will go in with the throw for two reasons 1. only the males like to wreasle it seemes in my dojo ( and yes I am a guy so..) 2. girls would give me more shame if they beat me and belieave me they could beat me anyday.

as far as injurys go I have been hurt too
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Old 08-21-2000, 09:57 AM   #50
Aikisho-1
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Hello-

I don't mind training with woman,as long as they are trying.I have practiced with some who are very good,very dedicated aikidoka.Then there are some who just got into it because they're girlfriends talked them into it.Maybe as a way of meeting guys,who knows.I have trained with both kinds.Aikido is hard enough,but it is even harder when someone doesn't give you anything to work with.

I'm affiliated with AAA,and there are some very tough women in class.They will hit you,if you don't give them an honest attack.I like them! I think that it helps to train with both men,and women.Because it helps you to relate to different ki,and different approaches to techniques.
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