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Old 09-30-2010, 10:12 PM   #1
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Mark,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As I said, if you have attended Mike's workshops, then I would suggest going to Dan's. Jim, you should go. I think you'd absolutely love this stuff. [snip]

It's smart to keep an open mind and not prejudge.
Given that Dan has steadfastly refused to accept my invitations to teach a seminar at my dojo or admit me to one of his seminars for aikido instructors, your exhortation doesn't help.

Further, I recently learned that Dan cut off contact with at least one person who mentioned to Dan that he had previously trained with me. Perhaps Dan himself should follow your advice to "keep an open mind and not prejudge." But what can one expect from a teacher who states, "I tell everyone at at seminars if they talk about the seminar or me on the net without clearing it with me, take a long look, because you will never see me again." (See http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=108.)

Does the registration form include a loyalty oath?

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 09-30-2010 at 10:16 PM.

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-01-2010, 06:55 AM   #2
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Mark,Given that Dan has steadfastly refused to accept my invitations to teach a seminar at my dojo or admit me to one of his seminars for aikido instructors, your exhortation doesn't help.

Further, I recently learned that Dan cut off contact with at least one person who mentioned to Dan that he had previously trained with me. Perhaps Dan himself should follow your advice to "keep an open mind and not prejudge." But what can one expect from a teacher who states, "I tell everyone at at seminars if they talk about the seminar or me on the net without clearing it with me, take a long look, because you will never see me again." (See http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=108.)

Does the registration form include a loyalty oath?

Jim
I stood in a room full of high ranking black belts, 4th dan and above, some of them were shihan level. Multiple organizations. Aikido and other arts.

Has it ever occurred to you, or anyone else, that maybe those people do *not* want it known that they attended? Because it seems that when some people do know, they take advantage of the situation with the heads of organizations - sometimes not in a good way. So perhaps, the admonition to not talk about it comes from a specific reason?

Those people there in that room were bright, talented, had long training histories, and were hard working people. They had responsibilities to their organization. Maybe they wanted to get a better handle on this new IP/aiki stuff before they created a situation in their own organization. There are a lot of maybes ... I don't know the why ... I didn't think it was any of my business to ask them or spread it around the Internet that they were there. From two short days spent in the same room, working with them, I gained way more admiration and respect to even think about doing anything like that.

It was certainly great to be able to train alongside all those people like that. I don't think anyone there would want to spoil that kind of environment. As has been said, IP/aiki is very different and its benefits are extremely valuable to martial artists. So, a "loyalty oath"? No. Loyalty born out of mutual respect, admiration, and hard work from all involved? Yes.

I don't know what you expect from a "teacher", but I certainly found admirable qualities from those teachers present. Don't talk about things without clearing them with Dan? ... I think that's a small, simple, and common sense thing to do. But considering how much ill-will has been presented with this topic, how people have used information spitefully, how people have posted personal information without permission, I guess it was something that needed to be said to make sure people who were there guarded against those kinds of situations.

Mark
 
Old 10-03-2010, 05:29 PM   #3
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Mark,

Please try answering a few questions before going off on another tangent.

1) Please describe how Dan's and Mike's teachings differ.

2) How is Daito Ryu aiki different from what you believe that Mike does or teaches?

3) Is Dan demonstrating and/or teaching Daito Ryu aiki?

4) If so, how does his Daito Ryu aiki differ from other Daito Ryu approaches (for example, that of Okamoto-sensei)?
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I stood in a room full of high ranking black belts, 4th dan and above, some of them were shihan level. Multiple organizations. Aikido and other arts.
Citation of anonymous authority does not convince me. Further, what do you mean by "shihan level"? Did these individuals hold shihan licenses from Aikido Hombu? If not, how did you evaluate their "level"?
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Has it ever occurred to you, or anyone else, that maybe those people do *not* want it known that they attended? Because it seems that when some people do know, they take advantage of the situation with the heads of organizations - sometimes not in a good way. So perhaps, the admonition to not talk about it comes from a specific reason?
I'm just a lowly 5th dan, but I invite a wide variety of instructors to my own dojo, and I attend seminars with a wide variety of instructors. My organization, and more importantly, my own teacher, are quite aware of my activities. I feel nothing but pity for anyone, especially someone of "shihan level", who is not free to pursue his or her own training openly.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
how people have used information spitefully, how people have posted personal information without permission,
Examples? I mean, apart from the several instances that Dan has quoted my private correspondence with him to others...

As always, I look forward to your reply.

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-04-2010, 06:27 AM   #4
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Jim,
If you reread posts #18 and #21 and #26, you'll find my answers. Whether you want to accept them is another story. If you don't, please start another thread as they are off topic to this one.

Thank you,
Mark
 
Old 10-04-2010, 07:55 AM   #5
Marc Abrams
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Jim:

It is well known within the Aikido and Daito Ryu communities that you and Dan Harden had some "past issues" (putting it mildly). Dan Harden has made it known to you in private and in a public manner that he simply wants nothing to do with you. You go in your directions and he will go in his. Despite his reasonable request, you are hijacking this thread to impose yourself where you simply should not be. Asking Mark to somehow serve as a proxy for Dan is doing nothing other than to show that you will not abide by a simple request.

Maybe you should be answering the question as to why you are doing what you are doing? Easier than that, would be for you to quietly go off in your directions and allow Dan to do the same.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 10-04-2010, 09:27 AM   #6
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Wow Marc, That was really nice.
 
Old 10-04-2010, 09:42 AM   #7
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Marc,
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan Harden has made it known to you in private and in a public manner that he simply wants nothing to do with you. You go in your directions and he will go in his. Despite his reasonable request, you are hijacking this thread to impose yourself where you simply should not be. Asking Mark to somehow serve as a proxy for Dan is doing nothing other than to show that you will not abide by a simple request.

Maybe you should be answering the question as to why you are doing what you are doing? Easier than that, would be for you to quietly go off in your directions and allow Dan to do the same.
How would you know what Dan and I have said to each other in private exchanges?

I'm not asking Mark Murray to serve as a proxy for Dan --- he has repeatedly put himself out there as Dan's "representative". He encouraged people who have trained with Mike Sigman to sign up for Dan's workshop. As someone who has trained with Mike, I asked him some questions about that. If you, Mark, or Dan have a problem with such questions, I suggest that you take it up with Jun.

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-04-2010, 09:51 AM   #8
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Mark,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If you reread posts #18 and #21 and #26, you'll find my answers. Whether you want to accept them is another story. If you don't, please start another thread as they are off topic to this one.
The closest thing I can find to an answer to any of my questions is in your post #21, in which you state, "As Dan has posted, he doesn't teach an organized system, he does MMA. My personal opinion and that of others is that what we have felt/experienced is Daito ryu aiki." I asked you to provide some rational support for that personal opinion.

I'm still waiting to hear from you on the following questions:

1) Please describe how Dan's and Mike's teachings differ.

2) How is Daito Ryu aiki different from what you believe that Mike does or teaches?

4) [Given that it is your personal opinion that Dan is showing Daito-ryu aiki], how does his Daito Ryu aiki differ from other Daito Ryu approaches (for example, that of Okamoto-sensei)?

Un-numbered) What did you mean by "shihan level", when you described some of the people at Dan's previous workshops? Did these individuals hold shihan licenses from Aikido Hombu? If not, how did you evaluate their "level"?

Given that you are attempting to encourage people to attend Dan's workshops, it seems to me that my questions about your observations and experiences at Dan's (and Mike's) seminars are well-within the scope of this thread. If you disagree, please take it up with Jun.

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 10-04-2010 at 09:58 AM.

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-04-2010, 10:00 AM   #9
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Jun,
Would you please split off all of Jim's posts into a thread of it's own. He is asking about my personal opinions of specific experiences and that is off topic to this thread, which is about Dan's seminar.

As Jim has posted in #32, he doesn't see my answers in my previous posts, so perhaps a different thread will allow more illumination regarding this. Otherwise, I'm done answering in this thread.
 
Old 10-04-2010, 10:04 AM   #10
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Hi Jun,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Jun,
Would you please split off all of Jim's posts into a thread of it's own. He is asking about my personal opinions of specific experiences and that is off topic to this thread, which is about Dan's seminar.

As Jim has posted in #32, he doesn't see my answers in my previous posts, so perhaps a different thread will allow more illumination regarding this. Otherwise, I'm done answering in this thread.
I'd appreciate it if you would leave my posts in this thread. I believe I have asked some questions which are quite relevant to the original topic, especially given Mark's exhortations to the readers of AikiWeb to attend Dan's workshops.

Thanks!

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 10-04-2010 at 10:06 AM.

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-04-2010, 10:07 AM   #11
Marc Abrams
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Marc,

How would you know what Dan and I have said to each other in private exchanges?

I'm not asking Mark Murray to serve as a proxy for Dan --- he has repeatedly put himself out there as Dan's "representative". He encouraged people who have trained with Mike Sigman to sign up for Dan's workshop. As someone who has trained with Mike, I asked him some questions about that. If you, Mark, or Dan have a problem with such questions, I suggest that you take it up with Jun.

Jim
Jim:

Once again, I would strongly and politely suggest that you allow the past to remain the past. I personally have no problems with questions. What I do have a problem with is that you are hijacking a thread in a manner that runs counter with the polite request of Dan Harden that you go your way....

I have had the distinct pleasure of working with both Mike and Dan. I find them both to be admirable and skilled martial artists who have a lot to teach people who learn from them. I respect them enough that if one of them were to say to me "please do not have any more contact with me," I would do so. I would not directly contact that person, or anybody who trained with them. Your questions simply serve no useful purpose given the history that you two have had.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 10-04-2010, 10:14 AM   #12
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Marc,
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
[snip]What I do have a problem with is that you are hijacking a thread in a manner that runs counter with the polite request of Dan Harden that you go your way....

I have had the distinct pleasure of working with both Mike and Dan. I find them both to be admirable and skilled martial artists who have a lot to teach people who learn from them. I respect them enough that if one of them were to say to me "please do not have any more contact with me," I would do so. I would not directly contact that person, or anybody who trained with them. Your questions simply serve no useful purpose given the history that you two have had.
If someone were to post something along the lines of, "If you have taken any seminars from Ushiro-sensei, you should make every effort to attend the seminar with X-sensei," wouldn't you ask that person about his basis for comparing Ushiro-sensei and X-sensei? My questions to Mark are reasonable. His unwillingness to answer them speaks for itself.

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 10-04-2010, 10:31 AM   #13
Marc Abrams
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Re: Dan Harden Workshop Nov 6 & 7 Santa Ana, CA

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Marc,

If someone were to post something along the lines of, "If you have taken any seminars from Ushiro-sensei, you should make every effort to attend the seminar with X-sensei," wouldn't you ask that person about his basis for comparing Ushiro-sensei and X-sensei? My questions to Mark are reasonable. His unwillingness to answer them speaks for itself.

Jim
Funny you say that! I do exactly what you said. I think that it is important for all of us to try and get some hands on with some truly remarkable teachers. I do not have to ask anybody to make comparisons. I want them to experience it for themselves.

That is a totally separate topic from what is going on here. If you had absolutely no history with Dan Harden, then those questions would be seen in an entirely different light. You make comments that display "issues" with Dan Harden, so your questions are not simply what they seem to be. Those questions are also being asked in a manner that goes against the polite and direct request from Dan Harden to you.

Mark should simply not respond to you as well. If he is assisting Dan in setting up a seminar, then that is a nice thing to do. Trying to place him as some kind of proxy for Dan because of that is simply beyond where he should go.

You are simply trying to create an unnecessary situation for reasons all of your own. Don't you have better things to be doing, rather than trying to stir up controversy and discord where none needs to be?

Marc Abrams
 

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