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Old 10-01-2010, 06:01 PM   #1
odudog
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

breakfall = hayaku zenpo kaiten ukemi

The flipping over ukemi usually taken from kotegaeshi. This is the vernacular that I use.

If you don't have a strong kuzushi then do the Yoshinkan version. Things happen as I'm sure you know. So you need backups when your version does not go off as well as planned.

Last edited by odudog : 10-01-2010 at 06:03 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 10-01-2010, 06:11 PM   #2
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
breakfall = hayaku zenpo kaiten ukemi

The flipping over ukemi usually taken from kotegaeshi. This is the vernacular that I use.
Ok, that's the thing. I don't call that a breakfall but a roll. And then, yes, you're right. There are many shihonage variations that won't allow you that zenpo kaiten ukemi. Most of them, I'd dare to say.

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
If you don't have a strong kuzushi then do the Yoshinkan version. Things happen as I'm sure you know. So you need backups when your version does not go off as well as planned.
Again, that's right to me.

But, according to my own personal experience, I find it easier to reverse / escape the kaiten ukemi version than the ushuro ukemi (what I call a backwards breakfall) version.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:04 AM   #3
WilliB
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
breakfall = hayaku zenpo kaiten ukemi
.
Well, that is a mouthful! And it only describes a forward breakfall.
Everybody I know simply says "tobi ukemi". Whats wrong with that?
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:48 AM   #4
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Well, that is a mouthful! And it only describes a forward breakfall.
Everybody I know simply says "tobi ukemi". Whats wrong with that?
Well, everyone I know will say "zenpo kaiten ukemi". "Tobi ukemi" is just such broad a term as "kokyu nage".
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:25 AM   #5
WilliB
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Well, everyone I know will say "zenpo kaiten ukemi". "Tobi ukemi" is just such broad a term as "kokyu nage".
Hate to nitpick, but a "zempo kaiten ukemi" means simply rolling forward. Nothing about breakfall in that term.

But then again I guess that is Flintstone ryu :-)
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:41 AM   #6
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Hate to nitpick, but a "zempo kaiten ukemi" means simply rolling forward. Nothing about breakfall in that term.

But then again I guess that is Flintstone ryu :-)
So exactly what is about breakfall in "tobi ukemi", then? And then again, what does a roll have to do with a breakfall at all?
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:06 AM   #7
WilliB
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So exactly what is about breakfall in "tobi ukemi", then? And then again, what does a roll have to do with a breakfall at all?
The "tobi" of course.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
And then again, what does a roll have to do with a breakfall at all?
That is for you to explain, since you are calling breakfalls "fast forward rolls".

Not that it matters, but since you want to argue...
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:11 AM   #8
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
The "tobi" of course.
Really? LOL. Just LOL.

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
That is for you to explain, since you are calling breakfalls "fast forward rolls".
Really? LOL. Just LOL.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:43 AM   #9
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
The "tobi" of course.
Really? LOL. Just LOL.
Really? LOL. Just LOL.
???
tobi ukemi is japanese for breakfall. Whats funny with that?
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:56 AM   #10
akiy
 
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Willi, Alejandro,

Would it be possible for both of you to redirect your efforts from criticizing the other person's use of Japanese terminology for "breakfall" to addressing the terms themselves? All this bickering seems quite unnecessary to me.

As for the topic here, the terminology used by various styles of aikido -- not to mention by certain groups, teachers, or students within those styles -- are often specific to their training. In other words, they're pretty much technical jargon and are not meant to be truly "descriptive" (as in the names describe exactly what is going on). If you stop a native Japanese speaker who does not do budo on the streets of Shinjuku and ask them if they could tell us what the techniques of "shihonage," "kaitennage," and "ikkyo" looked like, I doubt they would be able to do so from the context of the terminology themselves.

As far as a "breakfall" is concerned, I am guessing that we are referring to the kind of falling in which uke uses an abrupt slapping motion of their arm(s) to "break" their fall.

I can see what Alejandro is referring to when he says that "tobi ukemi" doesn't imply a "breakfall," per se, as people can certainly jump and take a simple roll without slapping. Similarly, Willi's contention that "zenpo kaiten ukemi" doesn't imply a breakfall, either, in that people can take a "rotating frontward ukemi" without the slapping motion, either. However, in both cases, within the context of each of their training, the terms may very well refer to very specific actions -- just as "shihonage," "kaitennage," and "ikkyo" refer to specific techniques within some of our training contexts, too.

With all of that said, would people like to direct the discussion to the terminology that they use to refer to breakfalls and the reasoning why they use said terminology within their context of use?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 10-02-2010, 10:29 AM   #11
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

To go back to Japanese ukemi is receive uke 受 with the body mi 身.

The English word breakfall just means break the fall so it covers all the ukemis but some styles seem to be using it in a more specialized way to mean high breakfall - tobi (jumping) ukemi.

This is a good summary of the terminology from the judo point of view.

http://judoinfo.com/breakfalls.htm

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Old 10-02-2010, 10:45 AM   #12
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
breakfall = hayaku zenpo kaiten ukemi
I apologize for the pedantry, but that should be "hiyaku", rather than "hayaku".

飛躍 hiyaku - jump, leap.

The first kanji also happens to be the one for the tobi of tobi or tobu ukemi.

FWIW, I also have no idea what Flinstone finds so amusing about tobi being used as a term.

Incidentally, "tobi" or "hiyaku" is merely a modifier that can be applied to any kind of ukemi - zenpou or kouhou. This, for example, could easily be called hiyaku kouhou ukemi. So, while a forward roll in Yoshinkan is called a zenpou kaiten ukemi (literally "forward + roll + ukemi"), when that involves uke leaving their feet without first making contact with the ground with their hand, it's a hiyaku zenpou kaiten ukemi..

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Old 10-02-2010, 10:52 AM   #13
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Thanks Jun, that was needed.

My group identifies break fall vs. roll via a numbering system;

-Zenpo kaiten ukemi dai ichi (katahiza tsuki) is our forward roll, no slap, from kneeling position.
-Zenpo kaiten ukemi dai ni is our forward roll with no slap from the standing pos.
-Zenpo kaiten ukemi san is our standing forward roll with arm slapping to break momentum
-Zenpo kaiten ukemi dai yon is our standing forward, arm slapping, roll where the straight/post leg does not touch the ground
-Hyakyu zenpo kaiten ukemi is our standing 'jumping' break fall...though we emphasize controlled ukemi, not an actual big, high, jump.
-Tobikoshi ukemi (sotai dosa) is our forward, arm slapping, breakfall over a partner's hip as s/he is bent over.
-Koho kaiten ukemi is our rear roll, no slappy...though quite different than many of the aikikai style's ushiro ukemi
-Koho ukemi ichi is our feet together backfalling movement with no slappy
-Koho ukemi ni is same but with slappy
-koho hikiashi ukemi ichi/ni same idea but with stepping back
-Ukemi uchite renshu ichi/ni laying on floor, head off ground, slaping mat exercise. Dai ni is the same but feet also off ground.

As you can see, this is obviously an internal design used by us for our training purposes. There are always going to be budo specific terms that are different and esoteric in comparison to contemporary Japanese language...these would cause debate and confusion in many native speakers, let alone those who only know "Dojo Japanese." This issue is compounded by translating these ideas to English...which don't always have a directly translatable word. To caveat off Jun, ask a native Japanese speaker what suigetsuzuki means. Heck, many Japanese martial arts practitioners might not know what that means. Furthermore, If I ask anyone on this forum what Ki Osae Do Giri dai ichi or Sasoi Awase Tsuki ni is, I am pretty confident they won't know what it is unless they train at my school, or perhaps with the Yoshokai. Certainly these differences are meant to assist in one's own training and not as a base for Truth in Budo Terminology...for me, the vernacular is secondary to the training.

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Old 10-02-2010, 10:59 AM   #14
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I apologize for the pedantry, but that should be "hiyaku", rather than "hayaku".

飛躍 hiyaku - jump, leap.

The first kanji also happens to be the one for the tobi of tobi or tobu ukemi.

FWIW, I also have no idea what Flinstone finds so amusing about tobi being used as a term.

Incidentally, "tobi" or "hiyaku" is merely a modifier that can be applied to any kind of ukemi - zenpou or kouhou. This, for example, could easily be called hiyaku kouhou ukemi. So, while a forward roll in Yoshinkan is called a zenpou kaiten ukemi (literally "forward + roll + ukemi"), when that involves uke leaving their feet without first making contact with the ground with their hand, it's a hiyaku zenpou kaiten ukemi..
Is it really, I mean are you going by knowledge of the Yoshinkan group specifically or language knowledge?

I've always thought/assumed it was hyakyu as in "100" zenpo kaiten ukemi...the purpose for hyaku being for whatever reason...I've heard stranger names for techniques. If what you say is true, then wow....my bad, that one totally went over my head for the last 10 years! Lol. I can already tell this is going to be one of those things where I go to dojo and say "guys its hiyaku as in jump, not hyaku as in 100" and everyone will be like "your kidding, how did you not know that?" Regardless, thanks for the info!

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Old 10-02-2010, 11:34 AM   #15
WilliB
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Is it really, I mean are you going by knowledge of the Yoshinkan group specifically or language knowledge?

I've always thought/assumed it was hyakyu as in "100" zenpo kaiten ukemi...the purpose for hyaku being for whatever reason...I've heard stranger names for techniques. If what you say is true, then wow....my bad, that one totally went over my head for the last 10 years! Lol. I can already tell this is going to be one of those things where I go to dojo and say "guys its hiyaku as in jump, not hyaku as in 100" and everyone will be like "your kidding, how did you not know that?" Regardless, thanks for the info!
I am not doing Yoshinkan, and I commented based on the "hayaku" spelling of the original poster. Which simply means fast.

Now I youtubed for it, and this pretty official looking video indeed says it is "hiyaku", as in "jump":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22BL4ierNJA

Looks we all learned something.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:08 PM   #16
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Wow, thanks again.

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Old 10-03-2010, 02:59 AM   #17
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
???
tobi ukemi is japanese for breakfall. Whats funny with that?
Sorry, Carsten, but tobi ukemi means "flying ukemi". Don't see the "breakfall" there. At all. I do tobi ukemi rolling, not breaking the fall... but then again, I'm not an Aikidoka according to many people here.
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Old 10-03-2010, 03:02 AM   #18
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
FWIW, I also have no idea what Flinstone finds so amusing about tobi being used as a term.
Never said I never used tobi as a term. Did I miss something? I'm not a native Japanese speaker also, but I do have a sankyu (in Noken) since many years ago. Then left the studies. I'm well aware of the term, but thanks.
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:33 AM   #19
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Never said I never used tobi as a term. Did I miss something? I'm not a native Japanese speaker also, but I do have a sankyu (in Noken) since many years ago. Then left the studies. I'm well aware of the term, but thanks.
I never said you said you used the term "tobi". WilliB said the term in Japan for "breakfall" was "tobi ukemi". You said, "LOL." I simply said I don't get why you were laughing out loud. It is indeed a common term for what English speakers refer to as a "breakfall". That the literal translation of "tobi ukemi" is not "break + fall" doesn't matter.

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Old 10-03-2010, 05:56 AM   #20
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Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Sorry, Carsten, but tobi ukemi means "flying ukemi".
Yes. And this exactly is what is called a breakfall in my "aikido-world". In German it is called "freier Fall (noun) /fallen (verb)". Which literally means "free fall/falling". The meaning is to do ukemi with no contact to the ground. Or with contact to the ground only at the end of the movement.
You can do this with slapping the tatami. Or very quiet, smoothly, if you are able (which I am not).

And you have to do it because tori holds on to uke (or uke holds on to tori) and can not roll away. Or because tori leads you over the hip (koshi nage) or over the leg (irimi nage, tenchi nage) or over the elbow (shiho nage) or over the hand (kote gaeshi).
Or you have to jump by yourself because tori uses a joint lock (kote gaeshi, shiho nage) and you have to "rescue yourself".

Quote:
Don't see the "breakfall" there.
Well you have to fall without contact to the ground, you are not able to roll away => "tobi (flying) ukemi", "freier (free) Fall", "chute frappée (hit/slap)"
And when we express this in english we use the term "breakfall".
It's just the word, just the translation, which is in use to express tobi ukemi or freier Fall or chute frappee.

Quote:
but then again, I'm not an Aikidoka according to many people here.
"many people here" ar not the ones who define, who you are. Or are not.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:15 AM   #21
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

To really blow your mind, "tobi" does not in fact mean "flying" or "jumping", but is a Japanese term for moving through the air without contact with the ground. It thus encompasses both of the above English terms, but doesn't really mean either of them. This is why it is such a commonly used term for what we call in English a breakfall -- it is literally ukemi where in you at one point move through the air without touching the ground.

Breakfall, OTOH, is not a very precise or transparent term. Really, it should be an all encompassing word for "ukemi", and I believe originally that's what it was in judo. But since judo falls often tend to leave the ground, it ended up being applied to those types of falls in aikido.

Josh Reyer

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Old 10-03-2010, 06:30 AM   #22
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Sorry, Joshua and Carsten. Tobi ukemi can be a roll no matter how you look at it. It can be a breakfall too, of course. What I do mean is that "tobi ukemi" does not equal "breakfall", but "flying ukemi".

Ok, this is the terminology I'm used to:

Mae Ukemi: forward breakfall. Yes, there is nothing meaning "breakfall" is the term "mae ukemi". It defaults to breakfall because there is no "kaiten" in the term, as simple as that.

Ushiro Ukemi: backward breakfall. Same caveat as before.

Zenpo kaiten ukemi: forward roll.

Koho kaiten ukemi: backwards roll.

Tobi ukemi: flying ukemi.

Tobi mae ukemi: flying forward breakfall.

Tobi zenpo kaiten ukemi: flying forward roll.

Hope this clarifies my pow.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:35 AM   #23
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Thank you.

What is the difference between a forward breakfall and a forward flying roll?

What is a backward breakfall?
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:53 AM   #24
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Thank you.

What is the difference between a forward breakfall and a forward flying roll?

What is a backward breakfall?
This is a forward breakfall (in my book): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-NSUPmhjFk

This is a forward flying roll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNzmfZe8W4

Hope this helps understanding my (and of those around me) use of the terms.
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:43 PM   #25
Chris Farnham
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Re: Japanese Term(s) for "Breakfall"

I have noted this on more than one occasion, but in my limited experience training in Japan, I have noticed that Japanese Aikidoka are less dogmatic about terminology than Aikidoka abroad. For example I have heard people use the term katate dori and katate mochi in the same breath. Yes, if you want to pick nits, they don't exactly mean the same thing, but they do roughly describe the same action.

In my first dojo in the USA( Chiba sensei and Yamada sensei lineage) we used the terms breakfall and highfall interchangeably to refer to the ukemi being discussed. This weekend I was at a seminar with Inagaki Shihan at the Ibaraki shibu dojo in Iwama, and I heard this same ukemi referred to as takai ukemi by some people. I am not contending that this is an official term, but it was used and understood.
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