Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-30-2010, 09:24 AM   #1
Aikidonewbie
Dojo: Plano Aikido
Location: Achille,ok
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 16
United_States
Offline
Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 09:33 AM   #2
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 144
Japan
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Daniel Davis wrote: View Post
Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.
Don´t know what you mean by "correctly"; there are several different ways to pin. I wouldn´t really trust any small joint pin though; if you really want to pin a strong, resisting person on the ground, you will have to go down and into some judo hold. These elegant "look, only one hand" pins are nice for demonstrations, though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #3
shakou
 
shakou's Avatar
Dojo: Ronin Aikido Association
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 43
England
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Is that pin the same as the finish in ude-gurami (sp)? I have found that in the figure 4 lock you may need to take the crossed hand from the your own wrist so you can apply pressue to ukes wrist with both hands, so much more powerful. The knee position isn't so much in the chest as on the ribs and the head. I may be way off on what you are saying so take it with a pinch of salt.

The way we do shio-nage never ends in a pin, it is always a throw, it would be interesting to see what you mean. youtube link perhaps?

Last edited by shakou : 09-30-2010 at 10:15 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2010, 10:54 PM   #4
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Daniel Davis wrote: View Post
Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.
There are several different ways to do it. You just need to keep searching for the right way. But remember, on the street, if the shihonage is done properly, you won't need to pin the person.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:22 AM   #5
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 799
Germany
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Kris Moralee wrote: View Post
Is that pin the same as the finish in ude-gurami (sp)?
No, the shiho nage pin is a pin of its own. Uke lays on his back (just like when pinning from uke kime nage), the hands stay where they are during the throw.

There are indeed different possibilities, but mostly the position is not very goo when placing the knee on the chest. We do this only in hanmi handachi waza. When applying the shiho nage pin from tachi waza we only use the hands.

Quote:
The way we do shio-nage never ends in a pin, it is always a throw, it would be interesting to see what you mean. youtube link perhaps?
Well shiho nage and kote gaeshi both can be applied as throw and as pin.

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:03 AM   #6
Eva Antonia
Dojo: CERIA
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 208
Belgium
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Hi,

when you have uke on the ground lying on his back, you apply a gokyo-like thing with the arm you still hold in shiho nage, but the arm is folded backwards/upwards. You block him with one knee between head and shoulder so that he cannot just turn around and then you apply pressure on the elbow.

But this works only if uke does a backward fall; if he does a forward fall you can catch up with kote gaeshi + appropriate ending.

I found a video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hVsq4cmtuU

(but we put the knees slightly differently in out dojo).

Best regards,

Eva
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 06:12 AM   #7
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Here is shihonage with a pin and atemi at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9a26st3jo

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 07:20 AM   #8
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 144
Japan
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Here is shihonage with a pin and atemi at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9a26st3jo
Thats Yoshinkan though. I have not seen that particular version in Aikikai.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 07:55 AM   #9
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 594
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

This is the Iwama way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 08:14 AM   #10
shakou
 
shakou's Avatar
Dojo: Ronin Aikido Association
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 43
England
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post

Well shiho nage and kote gaeshi both can be applied as throw and as pin.

Carsten
Never seen a pin from shiho nage before. I was gonna cry off with a bad chest but need to know what this is now. I can't look at the you tube links at work cos we're restricted and inter web is down at home..... Sounds like an interesting technique
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 11:19 AM   #11
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
Thats Yoshinkan though. I have not seen that particular version in Aikikai.
That's correct. Here is the current Doshu performing Shihonage and not projecting Uke away but holding on to the hand.. would this qualify as a pin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJjb65eu2w

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 11:35 AM   #12
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Iwama way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_IGG...ext=1&index=44

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 11:46 AM   #13
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 594
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Does not get more Iwama then this:-) Shiho nage @ about 2:10.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 12:31 PM   #14
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Does not get more Iwama then this:-)
My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken.

I was shown a pin from shihonage in which the inside forearm puts additional pressure on uke upper arm in a solid and painful way that very much limits the mobility of the upper body. The feet, lower torso and legs are still free to move. The mos teffective pin from that position that I have experienced anyway.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 01:59 PM   #15
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 883
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken.

I was shown a pin from shihonage in which the inside forearm puts additional pressure on uke upper arm in a solid and painful way that very much limits the mobility of the upper body. The feet, lower torso and legs are still free to move. The mos teffective pin from that position that I have experienced anyway.
sensei says that in order for this to be effective nage needs to have their knee hard up against ukes rib cage to prevent him from rolling out of it. Ive done this pin a bunch of times and on some pretty big guys and when I get it right they can't get out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 02:34 PM   #16
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
sensei says that in order for this to be effective nage needs to have their knee hard up against ukes rib cage to prevent him from rolling out of it. Ive done this pin a bunch of times and on some pretty big guys and when I get it right they can't get out.
I was thinking more of a quick kick to the head and maybe slipping into a triangle or armbar instead of trying to roll out. I'm sneaky like that.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:02 PM   #17
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 594
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Offcourse, after a shiho nage is executed with full intent, there is no need for a pin.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 03:28 PM   #18
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Offcourse, after a shiho nage is executed with full intent, there is no need for a pin.
Especially if uke breakfalls out (like one should).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:20 PM   #19
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

The Iwama, Aikikai, and Yoshinkan shihonage are the same.

The only difference in the Aikai vs. Yoshinkan clip depends on how well you have uke off balance. If you have uke off balance really well then you can go straight down like Doshu showed. If you don't have the balance of uke or uke is fighting, then you slide a little bit more behind uke while going down at the same time like Inoue Sensei showed.

You can also slide even more than Inoue Sensei showed, but uke has to be ready for that for it is a big fall. A friend of mine does another type of Aikido where you can not breakfall out of the shihonage. My personal version is a mixture of my friend's and Doshu and I can also throw like I was taught from DNBK.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:28 PM   #20
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
The Iwama, Aikikai, and Yoshinkan shihonage are the same.
Uh?

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
The only difference in the Aikai vs. Yoshinkan clip depends on how well you have uke off balance. If you have uke off balance really well then you can go straight down like Doshu showed. If you don't have the balance of uke or uke is fighting, then you slide a little bit more behind uke while going down at the same time like Inoue Sensei showed.
You surely don't mean there's no kuzushi in Yoshinkan or Iwama.

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
You can also slide even more than Inoue Sensei showed, but uke has to be ready for that for it is a big fall. A friend of mine does another type of Aikido where you can not breakfall out of the shihonage. My personal version is a mixture of my friend's and Doshu and I can also throw like I was taught from DNBK.
Sorry, but now I'm not sure what do you mean "you cannot breakfall out of shihonage". Could you point me to some resources where I can watch that shihonage. Would be interesting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:36 PM   #21
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Uh?

You surely don't mean there's no kuzushi in Yoshinkan or Iwama.

Sorry, but now I'm not sure what do you mean "you cannot breakfall out of shihonage". Could you point me to some resources where I can watch that shihonage. Would be interesting.
I didn't say there isn't kuzushi. I only stated that if you don't have it very well, then you slide like the Yoshinkan version. If you have your hips taken out very early in the technique, then you can't turn to do a breakfall. Or, if the technique is applied on you so low then you don't have the room or time to turn and breakfall. Unfortunately, these two versions that I have experienced, there are no videos to show. I have experienced {seminar or actual day to day instruction} of different styles of aikido or aikijujitsu. I can only tell on what I have experienced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 05:49 PM   #22
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
I didn't say there isn't kuzushi. I only stated that if you don't have it very well, then you slide like the Yoshinkan version.
If I don't have a strong kuzushi, I'm going to get hit or reversed. I don't think this is the case. But that's just my opinion.

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
If you have your hips taken out very early in the technique, then you can't turn to do a breakfall. Or, if the technique is applied on you so low then you don't have the room or time to turn and breakfall. Unfortunately, these two versions that I have experienced, there are no videos to show. I have experienced {seminar or actual day to day instruction} of different styles of aikido or aikijujitsu. I can only tell on what I have experienced.
Sorry, I don't mean to say you're wrong, I just don't understand what you mean by breakfall. You know, different names for the same concept; different concepts for the same name .
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 06:14 PM   #23
Carl Thompson
 
Carl Thompson's Avatar
Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 448
Japan
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Notice Saito Shihan cuts to the outside in this version (1:40-ish).

Carl
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 09:50 PM   #24
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Notice Saito Shihan cuts to the outside in this version (1:40-ish).

Carl
I believe that is the kihon version for shomenuchi shihonage omote. It is a lot of fun to play 'what if ...' off of that basic opening. I find the ki no nagare version pretty tricky as the timing has to be perfect with very little margin for error.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 02:06 AM   #25
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Shiho-nage pin and joint lock

All these "versions" of shi ho nage aka tenkai kotegaeshi are very interesting.

But does anyone have any principles that would govern the correct execution of the waza?

Specific details always change during the application of technique. The principles however tend to stay the same. I've found that maintaining kuzushi at all times and locking of the attacker's spine so that he is planted to the ground throughout the technique are critical regardless of the version of the waza used.

Regarding the OP's question - knee on ribcage with shoulder or wrist crank works well ime. From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match.

Aikido pins offer the mobility to quickly finish or disengage if needed to deal with other potential multiple threats, they are not the same as ne waza pins where one sacrifices ones footing and standing mobility to maintain positional dominance imho. Keeping ones vertical balance is a key principle of Aikido imho.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:54 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate