Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-11-2002, 10:37 PM   #1
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Breath, Aikido & Misogi

greetings to all!

I posted this in another thread, but thought perhaps it may have some merit for discussion on its own.

*******************************************

The following information was taught to me directly by Seiseki Abe Sensei, 10th dan, at his Osaka dojo. O-Sensei would spend about 1/3 of every month at Abe Sensei's home and teach aikido in the Osaka dojo that Abe Sensei built for him (next to his home). For those who aren't familiar with him, Abe Sensei was also O-Sensei's calligraphy teacher, and thus had a unique Master-Student, Student-Master relationship.

Torifune no gyo is one of the eight "gyo" (literally - austere training methods) or practices of Misogi-no-Gyo (austere training methods/practices of Misogi), as taught by O-Sensei. Many people use misogi as a spiritual practice. Although there is this aspect, it is only part of the picture. The actual reason is not a mystical practice by any means. There is a real basis for this practice, one rooted in a physical science and training directly related to our aikido training. Simply it is used to develop "Kokyu" or breath power. Kokyu is made up of two Kanji, "Ko" - meaning to breath out, and Kyu" - to breath in. There is also an advanced "bugei" aspect having to do with "hiding" ones breath from one's opponent. However, this is an advanced level of this training accomplished after years of companion breathing exercises.

They eight Misogi are:

1. Misogi-no-gyo (purification and breath training with cold water)

2. Torifune-no-gyo (rowing exercise to "actively" train the breath during movement)

3. furitama-no-gyo (shaking hands in front of hara to passively train the breath while in standing meditation)

4. Norito-no-gyo (chanting of long prayers to further train the breath)

5. Otakebi-no-gyo (Lifting the hands over the head, and body up on the toes, bringing hands back down to below the tanden while shouting "eee-aaaay" and forcing all the breath from the body, again, breath training.

6. Okorobi-no-gyo (two different practices using tegatana "two-fingered sword" cutting, shouting "eee-aaaay" and forcing all the breath from the body, for breath training.

7. Chinkon Kishin-no-gyo (seated meditation, with specific hand postures, hand gestures, and specific meditative visualizations)

8. Shokuji-no-gyo (specific dietary measures designed to distinguish the body's physical power and change the blood from acidic (typical) to alkaline [to promote proper breathing, and correct mind/attitude/heart - kokoro-e])

With specific regards to Torifune, there are three different components or movements. Each are to be followed by furitama, thus creating a pattern of "active/passive" breath training.

In the first movement, While moving the hips forward, the emphasis is on moving the hands forward very quickly (fingers active with "ki" and pointed down to the ground, wrists are bent - note the rotation of the forearm from the ready position to the forward position) while exhaling (kiai) with the compound vowel sound "Eeee-Aaaay". As the hips move back, the wrists follow (soft movement) with the vowel sound "ho". This 2-part sequence of forwards and backwards should be repeated upwards of twenty times. This is the male aspect, or giving "ki" exercise or "Irimi/Kokyu-ho" (triangle/square) based techniques.
You should notice that you are breathing hard as you change to furitama-no-gyo exercise.

The second Torifune exercise reverses the emphasis, starting with a forward hip movement, a soft hand movement and kiai with "ho" followed by the return of the hips, quick hand movement, while exhaling (kiai) with the compound vowel sound "Eeee-Aaaay". Then furitama-no-gyo. This is female, or accepting ki exercise or "tenkan/Kokyu-ho" or (circle/square) based techniques.

The third exercise changes the hand movements from ones that are hip level to ones that are chest level. Starting with palms up (at your sides and chest level) begin with the forward hip movement, moving the hands forward very quickly, turning the palms down to the ground, and exhaling (kiai) using the pronouncing "saaaaaah" this is followed by returning the hands to their original position, again moving the hands backward very quickly, this time exhaling (kiai) using the pronouncing "Eeee-Aaaay." Again, the emphasis is on both, moving the hands forward very quickly and back just as quickly. However, it is important to note that you should try this exercise in one breath, pushing all of your breath out as you move forward and back until you can not kiai any longer. This is the male/female or female/male aspect, for giving/receiving or receiving/giving "ki" exercise or "Irimi/Kokyu-ho" (triangle/square) or "tenkan/Kokyu-ho" (circle/square) based techniques. This is followed again by furitama-no-gyo.

Generally, furitama-no-gyo is practiced to warm the body up before Misogi-no-gyo. Then after misogi, the above routine is followed. This is a daily practice, and should be done four times a day (early morning, late morning, early afternoon, and late afternoon - not at night).

If anyone is interested in more information, please feel free to contact me directly.

Shaun Ravens - NY Aikido Center
Member, Aikido Doshinokai

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2002, 04:52 AM   #2
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
Movement, sounds, breath control

So if I read you correctly, there is a correlation to movement, sounds, and breath control?

Different sounds are more effective if used with the correct movements.

Different movements are more effective if used with correct sounds.

Being able to properly breath within the training of sounds, movement, and purifications enhances health?

So how come so many of these guys die before they are seventy, and drunken wino's live longer?

Just kidding ...

It really shouldn't matter if one person lives longer than another, but it become the quality of that life that is the difference.

It is an interesting aspect of breath and sounds having effect for Misogi practices, when they should be the actual catalyst for more effective technique in Aikido also?

Thanks for bringing this practice to light. I had the feeling when we did these practices in Aikido class it was in this direction, but no one had put an explanation together to explain why we do these things the way we do before I read this insightful peace.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2002, 08:27 AM   #3
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
More on Misogi

OK - In answer to your questions....

Quote:
So if I read you correctly, there is a correlation to movement, sounds, and breath control?
Yes, most definitely. Of course, when you are relating this back to actual techniques things are a bit different. In the way that I explained the practices, it is strictly to improve your own breath control, activating kokyu within the body. to be able to ground this and join it into your techniques would be the next level.

Quote:
It is an interesting aspect of breath and sounds having effect for Misogi practices, when they should be the actual catalyst for more effective technique in Aikido also?
I am not sure if I understand your question here. I think you are asking if correct breathing and sounds have an effect on techniques. My thoughts are "Yes, and no." Yes, in terms of breathing, and no in terms of the sounds - although, the sounds (in terms of the misogi practice) will have an effect on your breathing also. So, it could be said that indirectly it does have an effect.



Quote:
Thanks for bringing this practice to light. I had the feeling when we did these practices in Aikido class it was in this direction, but no one had put an explanation together to explain why we do these things the way we do before I read this insightful peace.
My personal experience has been that many people talk about misogi in terms of "spirituality" or "metaphysical" or "Shinto." Most of the time, however, it is because they don't have a practical understanding of what O-Sensei wanted students to achieve with this very practice.

This would not be wrong, and these things were certainly a heavy influence of the origination of these in terms of the Founder incorporating them into daily aikido practice. However, this (to me) signifies more that he was looking for a way to accomplish the breath training, and found an impetus for it in "Kojiki." I don't think that he expected each and every one of us to have that level of understanding about its origins. However, it is important to understand the cultural context of the time - in that if he showed something that had its origins in ancient text, the populous would be that much more easily convinced of its importance. I think O-Sensei was out to have us incorporate Misogi into our training to practically enhance our own techniques, and thereby his aikido through the reputation of his senior students.

Shaun Ravens - NY Aikido Center
Aikido Doshinokai

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2003, 09:56 AM   #4
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Why can't I find this thread in the General forum listing. Why is it only visible by using the search engine ?

maybe this will make it visible ?

Craig
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2003, 10:10 AM   #5
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
Why can't I find this thread in the General forum listing. Why is it only visible by using the search engine ?
If you look at the bottom of the forums thread listing, you'll see a drop-down menu specifying the number of days worth of threads you want to see. Since this thread was close to four months old, unless you had your settings to something that would show a thread this old, the system will not display it...

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2003, 02:36 PM   #6
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Awesome post Shawn.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2003, 08:35 AM   #7
drDalek
 
drDalek's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
How about some more info or links about this:
Quote:
8. Shokuji-no-gyo (specific dietary measures designed to distinguish the body's physical power and change the blood from acidic (typical) to alkaline [to promote proper breathing, and correct mind/attitude/heart - kokoro-e])
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2003, 11:42 AM   #8
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Thankyou Shuan, very interesting (without being wishy-washy!) I wonder if Jun would consider accepting one of Shuans submisions within the 'training' or 'spiritual' section outside the discussion board?

Also, my girlfriend has recently got into alot of alternative therapy stuff and has this weird book on folk medicine (western). It constantly goes on about making the blood more alkaline for health. If anyone is interested here are a few tips:

-eat apples, grapes etc (rather than oranges and citrus fruit which is acidic)

-eat natural honey

-absolutely the best thing is cider vinegar (you can buy it at health food stores)

P.S. only take around 2 tea-spoons of cider vinegar a day (I tried half a cup full and it made me gag).

P.P.S I didn't really notice any difference, but I didn't have the patience to try it for more than 1 week.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2003, 11:56 AM   #9
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
try these Wynand, based on a quick search:

http://www.cfsdoc.org/biological_terrain.htm

http://www.doctoryourself.com/honey.html

(I avoided sites which were blantently advertising).

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2003, 01:36 PM   #10
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
Thank you Shaun, very interesting (without being wishy-washy!) I wonder if Jun would consider accepting one of Shuans submisions within the 'training' or 'spiritual' section outside the discussion board?

Ian
I am happy to see that the post generated some interest. My point, as in many of my posts is to try to clearly make a case that O-Sensei made quite a bit of sense to those who were willing to take the time outside of their mat training to look into and study what he was talking about. So many so-called teachers talk about O-Sensei as a "mystical" martial artist, and this is a true disservice to the real person and the real martial art of O-Sensei.

While I am flattered that someone would even suggest that I write an article to be considered for the main website, I feel that if one is interested in these subjects, they should seek out Abe Sensei, and Matsuoka Sensei, if there is ever an opportunity to do so. I am certainly willing and able to try to help make sense of it all, but although my grasp is a bit more than my ability, and it does allow me insight into these things, I feel more comfortable walking along side of those who may be interested, rather than leading them, for the time being.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 09-22-2003 at 01:39 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 06:54 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
[In Re Misogi: Snipping to highlight] There is a real basis for this practice, one rooted in a physical science and training directly related to our aikido training. Simply it is used to develop "Kokyu" or breath power. Kokyu is made up of two Kanji, "Ko" - meaning to breath out, and Kyu" - to breath in.
Hi Shaun:

Although Kokyu is more or less translated as "breath power", it's more than that. It's part breath (an important part) and part a skill of forming paths to the ground (or paths from the weight in downward cases, but that's another story). Many of the demonstrations O-Sensei did, like the jo trick, like taking a steady push to his head while seated, like taking a push from a student's head into his stomach, etc., etc., are actually demonstrations of Kokyu as well. The literal meaning is not always what the idiomatic meaning is, in many languages.

The "rowing exercise" is probably a great basic exercise to focus on, but let me add a thought or two, if I may. Again there is the breathing part, but it is essentially a qigong that affects the body as a whole (think of it as pressurizing and de-pressurizing the skin of a football with the intent of strengthening the skin). The more readily accessible part of the "rowing", despite any comments about speed, is in how the oar is moved. A good practice toward correct rowing would be to take a 10-pound brick and put it on a table in front of you at about stomach height. As you push the brick forward with your hands, actually let the movement of the dantien forward be the power actually pushing the brick (maybe think of your dantien being where your hands are). As you pull the brick, think of an imaginary string from the brick to your obi and pull the brick with your obi. That's how to correctly work with a brick and also with the single oar in the back of the fishing boats the Japanese used.

In other words, I liked your post, but I felt like the focus was too much on the breath, which is not all Kokyu is about. But I really appreciate your laying out those eight steps. Good information.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2005, 11:21 PM   #12
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Shaun:

Although Kokyu is more or less translated as "breath power", it's more than that. It's part breath (an important part) and part a skill of forming paths to the ground (or paths from the weight in downward cases, but that's another story). Many of the demonstrations O-Sensei did, like the jo trick, like taking a steady push to his head while seated, like taking a push from a student's head into his stomach, etc., etc., are actually demonstrations of Kokyu as well. The literal meaning is not always what the idiomatic meaning is, in many languages.

The "rowing exercise" is probably a great basic exercise to focus on, but let me add a thought or two, if I may. Again there is the breathing part, but it is essentially a qigong that affects the body as a whole (think of it as pressurizing and de-pressurizing the skin of a football with the intent of strengthening the skin). The more readily accessible part of the "rowing", despite any comments about speed, is in how the oar is moved. A good practice toward correct rowing would be to take a 10-pound brick and put it on a table in front of you at about stomach height. As you push the brick forward with your hands, actually let the movement of the dantien forward be the power actually pushing the brick (maybe think of your dantien being where your hands are). As you pull the brick, think of an imaginary string from the brick to your obi and pull the brick with your obi. That's how to correctly work with a brick and also with the single oar in the back of the fishing boats the Japanese used.

In other words, I liked your post, but I felt like the focus was too much on the breath, which is not all Kokyu is about. But I really appreciate your laying out those eight steps. Good information.

Mike Sigman
Mr. Sigman,

Thank you for chiming in and bringing life back to the thread. In any case, while I don't necessarily disagree with you, I might have to not agree with it how you chose to make your points. One could say that it is a point of semantics, so please allow me to clarify my previous statement. If you note, the thread is entitled "Breath, Aikido & Misogi" indicating that there is a relationship intermingled between these three elements. Kokyu is breath power. Kokyu-ho is breathing method, kokyu-dosa is breath-exercise and kokyu-nage is breath throw. Of course, there is always flexibility when dealing with anything - including these definitions. Let's not forget any number of interpretations, too - both correct and incorrect ones. However we have to start somewhere. Temporarily fixing these definitions as I have above allows us to have a concrete discussion using actual reference points rather than imaginary ones. Just to point out, these are not my definitions…

So in this case, breath power can surely indicate the "Skin of the Football" as you put it. That is where I would agree with your statement. So to where you speak of the connection to the ground, for that too can be said to be kokyu. There are several levels of understanding of this. One can connect to the ground at one level, and at another level one can transfer the ground up through their opponent and/or their opponent through the ground. The shoulder can have kokyu, the elbow, the wrist, etc. and one can mistakenly develop this kokyu, becoming very powerful, that is until they meet someone who understands how to instantaneously (katsuhayahi) release these particular examples of kokyu.

Moving on; I chose not to delve into the actual relationship between Misogi, the breath and Aikido for several reasons. First and foremost, because many people were interested in the practice as it was passed directly from O-Sensei, and not necessarily the meaning behind the actual physical practice methods. Many people had not had an opportunity to find this information in English in any concise record, and all in one place. After reading this post on Aikido Journal, Stanley Pranin went and re-interviewed Abe Sensei and a fairly good translation was then presented to the public. Sadly this was only in Japanese. The article only scratched the surface, as the obvious questions that one would ask as follow-ups were not asked, or at least not included in the published article. My point is that if it is a choice between a presentation based upon my training with Abe Sensei, or something that comes directly from Abe Sensei, I would always recommend that later.

Second, it really takes a considerable effort and time to train in this manner. Most only take a cursory glance at it, and even that occurring over their lifetime training in the art. Therefore a more complete explanation would have been like piling a bag full of thousand dollar bills on a homeless man. Chances are he would end up dead by the end of the evening, having over-consumed in one manner or another.

Thirdly, if people had a sincere interest they could have contacted me, as many people did - from all over the world, actually, for more information.

There is so much more to be said. I recently returned from Japan, where Abe Sensei encouraged the four of us who have been going to seek this training from him over the last dozen years to go even deeper into this training. Much was revealed, and we each have a new respect for what O-Sensei was actually doing when he did Aikido. Of course there is much training to be done.

Lastly, one minor point. Using Chinese terms (dantien & Qigong) to relate to the training might be a bit confusing. As you know the relationship between in (yin) & yo (yang) in the Chinese and Japanese explanations are 180 degrees out of sink. Neither is wrong, just that you can not go back and forth between them in the course of discussing the flow of ki within the body -- and from within the body for that matter. That does not take the different types of "jing" into account, nor how jing is not the same as its Japanese counterpart in this context.

With regards to the Jo "trick" as you put it, I patently disagree with your analysis of the mechanics of demonstration. However, I can agree to disagree for the time being, but more on that later. I will give you kudos on your understanding of kokyu, and not let the language or the semantics get in the way of acknowledging you for that. I think that you might agree -- in the end it is all kokyu, and it isn't O-Sensei's Aikido without it -- that being the (unspoken) point of my initial post. Glad you caught it.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 08:03 AM   #13
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Thank you for chiming in and bringing life back to the thread. In any case, while I don't necessarily disagree with you, I might have to not agree with it how you chose to make your points. One could say that it is a point of semantics, so please allow me to clarify my previous statement. If you note, the thread is entitled "Breath, Aikido & Misogi" indicating that there is a relationship intermingled between these three elements. Kokyu is breath power. Kokyu-ho is breathing method, kokyu-dosa is breath-exercise and kokyu-nage is breath throw. Of course, there is always flexibility when dealing with anything - including these definitions. Let's not forget any number of interpretations, too - both correct and incorrect ones. However we have to start somewhere
Hi Shaun:

Well, it's a good discussion that you started and I hated to see it sort of die away; and you're right, we have to start somewhere. A really good way for most people to get their foot in the door about "kokyu" is in the common practice of kokyu-ho-dosa. The essense of kokyu-ho-dosa in seiza is that the opponents push (as an example) is allowed to go to the ground beneath your knees and shins; your push or throw is allowed to originate from this same ground and should be manipulated with your waist, not your shoulders. In other words, the essence of kokyu practice, in this exercise and all others, is in learning how to use this body skill, in addition to adding the strength from breathing practice

Quote:
Temporarily fixing these definitions as I have above allows us to have a concrete discussion using actual reference points rather than imaginary ones. Just to point out, these are not my definitions…
I understand that, Shaun, but allow me to at least put forward the possibility that things get lost in the translations, as I suggested before. Over the years, I've found that translations depend on one's knowledge of a language and also their real and full knowledge about the subject which they're translating. If someone doesn't understand about the paths of power through the body, then their translation will suffer accordingly. So I'm just asking that the possibility be left open that something may have been lost in the translation is just as important as "I heard it from..."

Essentially, we're not in too much disagreement, since you mentioned people being able to release power from any part of their body, etc.... that's kokyu, or "jin" in Chinese. My point was simply to add a few thoughts to liven up the discussion, nothing more.

Quote:
Lastly, one minor point. Using Chinese terms (dantien & Qigong) to relate to the training might be a bit confusing. As you know the relationship between in (yin) & yo (yang) in the Chinese and Japanese explanations are 180 degrees out of sink. Neither is wrong, just that you can not go back and forth between them in the course of discussing the flow of ki within the body -- and from within the body for that matter. That does not take the different types of "jing" into account, nor how jing is not the same as its Japanese counterpart in this context.
Well these are interesting statements, Shaun. The Japanese borrowed the whole complex "qi"-paradigm from the Chinese and while there have been modifications over time, for various reasons, it's pretty difficult to actually get 180-degrees out of synch. Could you expand a little bit or even start another thread in this group about how you see the "flow of Ki", the Chinese view, and so on? Thanks.

Quote:
With regards to the Jo "trick" as you put it, I patently disagree with your analysis of the mechanics of demonstration. However, I can agree to disagree for the time being, but more on that later. I will give you kudos on your understanding of kokyu, and not let the language or the semantics get in the way of acknowledging you for that. I think that you might agree -- in the end it is all kokyu, and it isn't O-Sensei's Aikido without it -- that being the (unspoken) point of my initial post. Glad you caught it.
Absolutely. I agree with you and I've said the same thing for many years. In fact, I can remember 20 and more years ago taking a lot of flack from Aikidoka for trying to express that general thought. The lack of knowledge about how these things work and the focus on technique or New Age mysticism, etc., within the Aikido community (in the 8 years I studied) is why I moved on and studied Chinese martial arts for the last 20 years. My contentions are (1.) that O-Sensei didn't do all of his Ki demonstrations as an interesting aside, he did them to make a point and (2.) that even the best technique done without the presence of Ki and Kokyu is not really Aikido because it is just external technique. However, that is my opinion, not something said in order to start a flame war.

I think I discussed the jo-trick in another discussion. Why not throw your thoughts about in there, rather than us trying to juggle too much in one thread?

All the Best

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 08:45 AM   #14
Martin Ruedas
 
Martin Ruedas's Avatar
Dojo: Makiling Southside
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 46
Philippines
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
-absolutely the best thing is cider vinegar (you can buy it at health food stores)

P.S. only take around 2 tea-spoons of cider vinegar a day (I tried half a cup full and it made me gag).

P.P.S I didn't really notice any difference, but I didn't have the patience to try it for more than 1 week.

Ian
Hi Mr. Dodkins, Why don't you try this site, www.Bragg.com, about cider vinegar, particularly apple cider vinegar.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 09:16 AM   #15
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
I think that you might agree -- in the end it is all kokyu, and it isn't O-Sensei's Aikido without it -- that being the (unspoken) point of my initial post.
Man, no offense intended, but if I have to do all this stuff to have "O Sensei's" aikido I'd just assume not have it.

I've never spent any amount of time on breathing other than basic stuff like "breath out when you throw" and how to breathe while taking uke. I'd just assume be training rather than doing all this.

My Aikido seems none the worse for it.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 10:19 AM   #16
Casey Martinson
Dojo: Meishinkan Dojo/Lehigh Acres
Location: Florida
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

hey keith, i think what you mean to say is, "i'd just as soon be training", not "i'd just assume be training." one of those common mistakes that a lot of people make because it's nearly undetectable when speaking. but in writing, there is a clear difference and the correct version is the only one that makes sense. and i don't mean to put you down at all; i made the same mistake for many years. i also used to say, "play it by year" before i realized what i meant to say was, "play it by ear." and since i've already hijacked the thread for totally unrelated musings on language, let me say one other thing for the benefit of anybody who might not know: the high octane coffee beverage is "espresso" not "eXpresso,"--i still hear that one all the time--and it actually has less caffeine than coffee because it's brewed so much quicker. anyway, excuse the digression. great thread.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 12:37 PM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Hi Mike You may have found what you were always looking for all those years in Shaun and Abe Sensei... have fun!

Hi Keith...I know we in the yosh don't go in much for ki and all that...but having spoken with Mike and Shaun over the years, I do believe that their approach holds quite a bit. For one, a much more grounded approach to the whole 'ki' debate. They have both influenced how I think about that stuff...even without hands on practice with them. Though I have to admit they would probably consider me personally such a lightweight if they felt my technique in person! Can't do the stuff they talk about...but I do think the language they use gives us a chance to open that door.

Ron (Shioda Kancho was ALL about kokyu rokyu...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 12:44 PM   #18
James Young
Location: Orange County, CA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Carlos Martin Ruedas Guevarra wrote:
Hi Mr. Dodkins, Why don't you try this site, www.Bragg.com, about cider vinegar, particularly apple cider vinegar.
I'm glad that someone mentioned the health benefits connected with apple cider vinegar, i.e to make your blood less acidic. I remember once on a business trip that the president of one of our vendors in Japan was into healthful living and all that and on one occassion he gave us a glass of Pairogen C. It was quite an unusual drink to say the least and when I read the ingredients it was primarily apple cider vinegar along with some other natural ingredients. I was told it was good for my health, but I didn't know exactly what it was supposed to do for my health. From the above posts now I do understand. As a sidenote unfortunately I didn't experience any of the intended benefits at that time because I only drank it for a couple of times while I was visting that company and never became a regular, long-term user. It may be interesting to try it again and use it on a regular and long-term basis to see if it does provide any benefit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 02:21 PM   #19
Casey Martinson
Dojo: Meishinkan Dojo/Lehigh Acres
Location: Florida
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

As for balancing blood pH, I might add that protein, especially animal protien (meat, dairy) has a very acidifying effect. I haven't read any of the "Balance your pH" diet books that are currently popular, but one consequence of overly acidic blood is a loss of bone density. Calcium is a natural antidote to high acidity, so in order to restore the appropriate pH balance, your body will draw calcium from the bones. This is not to say that such proteins are--from a nutritional perspective--bad, but they should be treated as very potent foods to be consumed in moderation. In general, Americans are not moderate in their consumption of meat or dairy. For more on this subject and healthy eating in general, I highly recommend Paul Pitchford's "Healing With Whole Foods". It is unbiased, comprehensive and extensively researched. Pitchford has a unique background in both nutritional science and traditional chinese medicine which allows readers to learn about food from eastern and western perspectives.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 05:14 PM   #20
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Yeah, I hear you Ron.

And I'm not trying to be down on these guys or stifle discussion or anything. Just sharing my opinion. I've been around the country and North of the border plenty and trained at a lot of different dojos & different styles. I've trained with folks whose main emphasis and focus was on ki and breathing etc.

It's not bad per se, but it's not what I consider to be good Aikido or good training. It would be one thing if all the ki exercises/breathing/whatever was done in addition to good hard training; good basics, balance, posture, etc. Now I've only been to maybe 3-4 'ki type' schools but they all have left a bad taste in my mouth, as well as every 'ki' sort of Aikido clip I've seen on the web. I'm not discounting it at all but I, personally, have never seen people with what I know to be solid fundamental basics in dojos such as I've described or in the vidoes I've seen on the Web.

I'm not saying they aren't out there, I just haven't seen it. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong either.

Cheers,

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 05:25 PM   #21
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Yeah, I hear you Ron.

And I'm not trying to be down on these guys or stifle discussion or anything. Just sharing my opinion. I've been around the country and North of the border plenty and trained at a lot of different dojos & different styles. I've trained with folks whose main emphasis and focus was on ki and breathing etc.

It's not bad per se, but it's not what I consider to be good Aikido or good training. It would be one thing if all the ki exercises/breathing/whatever was done in addition to good hard training; good basics, balance, posture, etc. Now I've only been to maybe 3-4 'ki type' schools but they all have left a bad taste in my mouth, as well as every 'ki' sort of Aikido clip I've seen on the web. I'm not discounting it at all but I, personally, have never seen people with what I know to be solid fundamental basics in dojos such as I've described or in the vidoes I've seen on the Web.

I'm not saying they aren't out there, I just haven't seen it. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong either.

Cheers,
Ummmmm.... I've been to a few Ki schools as a visitor, but I didn't see what I was looking for... and I don't think any of us were discussing Ki schools. We're discussing how the real stuff is done, regardless of school. As I noted earlier, I left Aikido because I couldn't find the information I wanted among the New Age practitioners and the "technique" practitioners who already knew everything and weren't interested in even discussing. it.

It doesn't take but a few videos for you to realized that both O-Sensei and Tohei both spent a lot of time demonstrating their Ki abilities (well, it was mostly kokyu, but that falls under the heading of Ki). I'm not sure why someone doing Aikido wouldn't be interested in the subject, frankly. But each to his own.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 05:43 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Mike You may have found what you were always looking for all those years in Shaun and Abe Sensei... have fun!

[snip]

Ron (Shioda Kancho was ALL about kokyu rokyu...)
Hi Ron:

Well, without having ever seen Abe Sensei, I've heard a lot of good about him, so the post caught my interest. I like the 8 points, even though my general feeling is that it's not pure Ki training and has a certain amount of religious baggage to it. So I'll stay in a conversation and contribute information as long as I'm getting info back.

What, BTW, is kokyu Rokyu... what technique? That just means "Kokyu Six" to me.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 05:53 PM   #23
James Young
Location: Orange County, CA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Kokyu ryoku (not rokyu) translates to kokyu power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 08:33 PM   #24
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Now see, I can follow the line of thinking that produces "shuchu ryoku," Shioda Kancho was definitely all about that. I can feel "shuchu ryoku" when I do a technique correctly. My timing is perfect, I have off balanced the uke, my body is in correct alignment, I apply the technique correctly, my movements have been precise and efficent, zanshin,etc. Not that it really happens that often... (gotta watch that back heel!)

That's a concept that I can feel, understand, and practice. This other stuff, I don't know...alot of it seems to be wrapped up in Shinto mysticism that really has nothing to do with training for me.

Sure, O Sensei was into it but big deal. Ghandi was Hindu, does that mean I have to become Hindu to learn from him or follow his example? Or do exactly everything he did? I don't think so.

I can practice hard/train hard in Aikido, develop excellent technique, and integrate the philosophical concepts of Aikido into my life quite easily without it (ki training/misogi/etc). Some (read, me) would argue that people can actually benefit from not doing it and instead spend that extra free time on actually training.

You don't learn to ride a bike from thinking about it, reading about it, talking about it, or doing supplemental exercises to increase your bike ridiing skills. You learn to ride a bike by doing it.

Seems to me Aikido is the same way. Just a hell of alot harder.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2005, 09:27 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Breath, Aikido & Misogi

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Sure, O Sensei was into it but big deal. Ghandi was Hindu, does that mean I have to become Hindu to learn from him or follow his example? Or do exactly everything he did? I don't think so.

I can practice hard/train hard in Aikido, develop excellent technique, and integrate the philosophical concepts of Aikido into my life quite easily without it (ki training/misogi/etc). Some (read, me) would argue that people can actually benefit from not doing it and instead spend that extra free time on actually training.

You don't learn to ride a bike from thinking about it, reading about it, talking about it, or doing supplemental exercises to increase your bike ridiing skills. You learn to ride a bike by doing it.

Seems to me Aikido is the same way. Just a hell of alot harder.
Well, O-Sensei was not only riding the bike, he was doing it in an entirely different way that was hard to see. He did all the demo's about being hard to push, the jo-trick, etc., etc., (and they're recorded for you to see, in fact) to emphasize that he did things in an unusual way. If you don't ride the bike like O-Sensei did it, you're not doing the same art he was... you're doing something else. I don't particularly care if someone doesn't see that or chooses not to care, I was just pointing it out in a friendly way.

Believe it or not, the unusual skills that O-Sensei showed in his demonstrations are the heart and soul of Aikido. Maybe you would enjoy taking a look at some of the old films that are recorded and see if you can duplicate his feats. If you can, you understand the heart of Aikido and you'll understand why Shaun and I suggest it is so important. It's so important that when Koichi Tohei broke off from Hombu Dojo that he used the Ki strength as the banner of the new school he was starting.... if it wasn't so important, he wouldn't have done that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido does not work at all in a fight. joeysola General 1930 07-09-2012 02:51 AM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Philippine ranking and other stories aries admin General 27 06-27-2006 04:27 AM
What the hell? Chris Birke General 127 06-03-2006 08:41 AM
Article: Aikido Now in Brunei AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 09-20-2005 06:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:37 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate