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Old 08-18-2005, 06:58 AM   #1
Camille Lore
Dojo: Lehigh Fukasakai
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Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

I am trying to apply the philosophies of AIkido especially in everyday conflicts I encounter. IE people who are out of control and yelling at me because they are having a bad day, drug dealers in front of our house staring us down because my partner is the head of the police department, etc. The Aikido part of me wants to just "not be there" for the attack. The jujutsu part of me wants to stun the person and use their energy against them to stop the attack. However, I am not developed enough in either art to really know how to apply them in these types of non-physical confrontations. Can anyone help?
Onegaishemas
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Old 08-18-2005, 07:20 AM   #2
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Camille Lore wrote:
[...] drug dealers in front of our house staring us down because my partner is the head of the police department, etc. The Aikido part of me wants to just "not be there" for the attack.
Am I the only one thinking that you need bigger guns and know how to use them? Hell, that's rather a bad place to be, you have my sympathy. Frankly, this is way past self defense more like self preservation.

I am sure the Police Department can provide something like protection if you feel threatened -- regular patrols, change of address, whatever...

You can install CCTV cameras on your property to catch them in the act but I'd talk to a lawyer to make sure the evidence you gather is solid and will stand up in court.

Remember when dealing with hard criminals: they don't obey the law whereas you have to. Yeah, it puts you at a hell of a disadvantage.

Best of luck.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2005, 07:54 AM   #3
Camille Lore
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Maybe I should clarify in that I am looking for ways to handle myself when they are staring at me in the park, and when people like my supervisor or others go off (yell at me) inappropriately....the aikido part of me wants to smile and walk away. The jujutsu part of me wants to slam them verbally where I know it will hurt them.
Understand also that the aikido I do is wartime and prewar....so pretty martial.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:39 AM   #4
markwalsh
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Dear Camille

"Off-the-mat" or applied aikido may be helpful to you. Dobson and Miller's, "Aikido in Everyday Life" was an early book in the field, that is still a good place to start. They present a bunch of aiki options, other than smiling an walking away.

I work part time for Aiki Extensions a non-profit who specialize in this area, we have a bunch of articles available free on-line:

http://www.aiki-extensions.org/member_pubs.html

Paul Linden's articles are accessible and well worth a read.

Regards,

Mark

PS - If your partner is interested we also do work with police.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:40 AM   #5
Larry Feldman
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

For 'verbal aikido' try Terry Dobson's book Aikido in Everyday Life
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:43 AM   #6
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

The main goal of self defense is to come out of the encounter with as little damage to yourself as possible. At least, that's how I understand it.

Whatever you do, always look at the long/mid term. While supervisors can be arseholes, they can make your life very difficult indeed. Just note down the encounter, time and reasons, in a book. If/when you decide to take action against said co-worker, then that will come in handy to prove that it's not a one off. If it is one offs, just let it slid.

If you are mathematically inclined, have a look at game theory. It's the mathematical model of conflicts and very interesting... Then again, that's my job so really I would say that!

And of course, there is nothing more annoying than someone who is polite, smiling and cheerful even in the face of arseholes. Hey, everyone sees you as the good guy and them as the bad guy whatever the background.

Of course, taking steam off is necessary: just train hard. Not talking, just do techniques till sweat drips out of you like a waterfall! Go to more classes and continue to train hard. It'll help. Of course, train hard and safe.

Best of luck.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2005, 12:09 PM   #7
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Your partner is head of the police department and you have drug dealers "mad dogging" you in front of your home and at the park? Somehow I can't imagine a police agency allowing that to happen, let alone continue. Our homes and families have always been off-limits to the crooks. Sounds like your cops should visit these poor, misguided souls and give them appropriate criminal conduct training. Why isn't your partner acting on all this?

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-18-2005, 12:22 PM   #8
Camille Lore
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Thank you for the links to those articles; they look great.
We have a part-time police force in a small rural town. Unfortunately, the powers in the local council have been corrupt for years and it's only been in the last two years that things have slowly been straightening out. Then there's civil rights and harassment, etc... so... I wish it were cut and dry.
I will look at those articles and hunt down a copy of that book. Sounds exactly like what I'm looking for.
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Old 08-18-2005, 12:30 PM   #9
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

You also have the Pennsylvania State Police, a highly regarded agency and the FBI has a public corruption unit as well. There are also civil processes available that don't infringe on the civil rights of the drug dealers such as injunctions and restraining orders. Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to offer some contact information or police tactical management suggestions. You don't have to feel that you live in Fort Apache. Have your partner contact Superintendent Eddie Compass at the New Orleans Police Department - he went through all this as a young lieutenant when they were rooting out the corruption there in the 90s. Eddie has been there and done that.

Best wishes

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-18-2005, 02:18 PM   #10
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
You also have (...) the FBI has a public corruption unit as well.
Sorry for spoiling this serious thread. I had never thought of the States being so bad

No Camille you have my smpathies and sometimes enforcing civil rights is even worse if your husband is the head of the local police department. It is all political.

My extra 2 cts is just:
train hard in both arts. You will find your way one day. In the meantime hopefully one of the other posts could help you.

Best regards Dirk
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Old 08-18-2005, 06:10 PM   #11
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

I don't have any experience with lurking drug dealers but I have some with yelling supervisors. LISTEN to what they are saying. Wrong or right, just really listen. You'll be amazed at the effect.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 08-18-2005, 06:27 PM   #12
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
I don't have any experience with lurking drug dealers but I have some with yelling supervisors. LISTEN to what they are saying. Wrong or right, just really listen. You'll be amazed at the effect. kvaak Pauliina
Best advice anyone has written in a long time......
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Old 08-19-2005, 10:24 AM   #13
markwalsh
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Nice one Pauliina

I've been working on listening on and off the mat for the last few years. It seems to me that it's the first part of any aiki response as it allows you to respond to what IS, and without it you can't blend. It's the difference between doing "to" and doing "with" - and people seem to like it!

My mum's a counselor (the therapist kind) so I should be good at this stuff, but it's difficult! One thing I've learnt is that listening is very much an active process. There's an aikido 6th dan called Richard Moon who VERY into listening. I've yet to meet him but he has an article here:

http://www.aikidoofmarin.com/richardmoon.html

He's been involved in international diplomacy, including work with youth from war zones if I remember rightly.
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Old 08-19-2005, 03:22 PM   #14
Aragorn
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
Nice one Pauliina
One thing I've learnt is that listening is very much an active process. There's an aikido 6th dan called Richard Moon who VERY into listening. I've yet to meet him but he has an article here:
.
I go to Aikido of Marin. Fancy that.Richard Moon is my Senseis' Sensei if I remeber Correctly. I never saw him yet. Go to one of his seminars if Possible.
Regards,



All that is gold does not glitter. All those who wander are not lost.
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Old 08-20-2005, 04:00 PM   #15
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
Sounds like your cops should visit these poor, misguided souls and give them appropriate criminal conduct training.
Hmm, exactly why I think LEOs are scum.


Anyway, on topic of drug dealers staring you down: Make strong eye-contact and nod.

That's it. They'll probably continue to stare while walking by, but by doing that you change the nature of the relationship.

That's part of how I'd handle it. I'd probably stop and ask if they had a problem with me in a very mature way--not being confrontational or permissive.

Just how I see it...but, whatever you do, you're the one facing the consequences.
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Old 08-20-2005, 06:18 PM   #16
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Strong statement, Jean and perhaps too inclusive. I never suggested or implied that anyone should behave unlawfully or inappropriately. There are many ways, completely lawful, to convince criminals to stay away from the homes and families of law enforcement agents - ways that could be filmed by 60 Minutes without embarrassment. The cops themselves have always been fair game, but the family members of officers (and reporters for that matter) have traditionally been off-limits to the criminals.

Perhaps your suggestions would work well. Out here there is a good likelihood you would get shot by some of these characters looking to make a name for themselves. Asking them if they had a problem with you could well get an answer in the form of a 9mm pistol held sideways "gangsta" style. Only the person confronted at the time will know the best answer.

Sorry you feel so strongly about my life-long profession. You must have had some terrible experience.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:56 AM   #17
akiy
 
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Hi folks,

Can we please stay on topic of "Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts" here? Please direct topic outside of that to the Open Discussions forum. Thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 08-21-2005, 02:18 PM   #18
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
Asking them if they had a problem with you could well get an answer in the form of a 9mm pistol held sideways "gangsta" style. Only the person confronted at the time will know the best answer.
Yeah, no doubt. That's why I left off with the reference to who'll face the consequences.

It's just been my experience that in those situations it's generally just a matter of animals pressing the limits.

Of the two times I've had guns to my head, once the initial shock and terror wore off (when they started talking and weren't looking to shoot anyone), staying calm and talking like a man yielded the results I was looking for.

Further, of the several houses I've been in that have been the target of drive-by's, they mostly shot high so as not to hit anyone (I believe), just to scare.

However, I've known five people who were shot (2 dead, 2 serious, 1 minor)...but never at point blank range.

So, it does happen, no doubt. But, my experience says that the Aiki way lets everyone retain their intact ego. However, I'm not saying that it's right for anyone else.

Lots of variables.
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Old 08-21-2005, 02:30 PM   #19
markwalsh
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

New thread?
"How can aikido help when you have a gun held to your head?"

As someone recently moved to the US from a relatively gun free country, and resident in a neighborhood where muggings at gun point seem quite common, this isn't just an academic question.
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:11 PM   #20
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

I have to agree with you Jean in that the principles of aiki will assist you in these kinds of situations. Not always of course, but in most. Unless you're facing some mad dog type, remaining confident and collected will help.

I will be travelling out your way in October/November on some court cases and would appreciate any advice as to dojo I could visit in the Detroit area. I anticipate being there for as long as two weeks overall.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-22-2005, 09:24 AM   #21
markwalsh
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

I see two ways in which aikido might be able to help when you have a gun pointed at your head:

1. Remaining calm and confident.
2. Verbal aikido.

What freaks me out about the scenario is the powerlessness.

Mark
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Old 08-22-2005, 02:10 PM   #22
Reitan
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Even if the drug-dealers vanished,the question still remains. How would I deal with this situation if I encountered it?How do I apply dojo priniples to resolve the situation? Nobody can ever sucessfully pre-plan an absolute strategy in any conflict. I would talk to them. Just say "Hi"when you walk by. Let them engage you in a conversation. The street has it's own ethics, and if you talk to people,you will discover them,and their stares would make sense. The understanding from their point of view would give you a natural way of carrying yourself around them that makes you a non-target. Recieve,blend,redirect,and go on about your business.
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:37 AM   #23
Camille Lore
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

Ok, so what's the entrance into a conversation with someone who has told your neighbor that they are sitting across from your house just to see how you like being stared at? I'm not sure I know how to approach someone like that.
I've been advised against trying to talk to them, as it might be seen as a confrontation...but I have wondered hypothetically what I would say to this person to try to disarm them. Just curious.
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:25 AM   #24
markwalsh
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

I've been thinking about the staring problem some.

I guess the first question would be is the staring a genuine threat? The next question would be if confronted, would it become one?

If no to question one then ignore them, but I remember not being able to do this at school when told to! If you believe said individual will become nasty if confronted then leave well alone too. Most people would be embarrassed while confronted however, as they wouldn't expect to be. Maybe give them an opt out so it's an irimi not a clash, e.g.:

"I've noticed you looking at my garden/curtains, you must really like them."

Legally staring at someone continually, may well constitute harassment, so this could even be an option (ask hubbie I guess).

Alternatively....

Put up mirrors so they can see how silly they look.
Get some ugly friends to make out in view...
Get a life size cardboard Steven Seagal to stare back!
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Old 09-08-2005, 05:22 AM   #25
Reitan
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Re: Aikido and jujutsu in everyday conflicts

The staring problem is an interesting one. On the one hand, doing anything at all about it could potentially turn into a dangerous situation. On the other hand, you will probably have all kinds of conflicting emotions inside yourself if you don't do something, and that can actually affect your life and well-being. I would never promote violence or reccomend someone put themselves in a possibly fatal position, but then again, trials,pain,suffering,and the exposure to real-life danger is what produces both a love and appreciation for life,and a genuine martial artist. I can say this- if you are afraid of a confrontation, I would NOT create one. I would wait until my whole being, heart included, was ready to act. There are legal implications to think about as well, as I'm sure you are aware. If you ever do have to confront them, just be honest. Tell them when they stare over at your place it scares the hell out of you. If they keep doing it after that, I would take it as a personal attack. At that point, I would probably be confrontational, but always leave someone a way to back down gracefully. If someone is backed into a corner they will fight visciously, and it doesn't matter if it's a physical corner or an emotional one. Pride probably kills more people that cancer. OK, maybe just plain stupidity ranks up there too, but like the previous poster said, leave them a way to back out. Unfortunately, nobody else can fix this situation for you, and even if they did, these types of things will always keep repeating over and over in our lives until we learn for ourselves how to deal with them appropriately. I would, myself, see this as an opportunity for personal development, and throw myself into it's resolution 100%. No matter the final outcome, you will come out a winner, and the prize will be peace of mind, and experience that will never be found in a textbook or a quick letter like this one. I would also think seriously about the type of weapons and attacks that are widely utilized in your area, and dedicate a large portion of my martial training to dealing with those specifics. Most sensei welcome a student's exploration of these topics, because in the end, it's about real world survival. I wish you the best, and I hope you remain safe.
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