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Old 09-15-2010, 09:41 AM   #26
tim evans
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

I purchased the dvd,s from the dojo but I,M told it,s on youtube under aikido 4th kyu test

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:26 PM   #27
Rob Watson
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Quote:
Charles Toor wrote: View Post
I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs
Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
Also notice in the video regarding the "grab", he is not literally grabbing uke's punch in midair. He glances his hand down uke's forearm and lets his hand slide down to uke's wrist.
And THEN grab! Hard to see but look closely and it is clearly grabbed after the blend/deflection and slide down the forearm onto the wrist. The web between the thumb and index finger slips right into place and a bit of pressure actually can make the fingers flex closed a bit ... I don't think one wants this to happen and when a bit more kokyu is present the angle is 'wrong' for the grab 'reflex' but is much better for the control and maintenence of kuzushi. I always thought one kind of led the ukes arm out and up and around to start the throw.

Interesting to play around with when uke strikes and pulls back to 'chamber' another strike. The blend/deflect then grab portion really becomes critical in such a case.

I'm not so sure that as an applied technique this works so well (as compared to the first method in the youtube vid) but for a training tool there is much to work on. Not that this is relevant ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:54 PM   #28
RED
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

I've seen this one done before. My freakin' husband loves loves loves this means of doing this technique.... I'm not a huge fan of it personally. I don't like when people try to grab strikes out of the air. There is a huge room for era when you are trying to grab something out of the air, it it limits your options IMHO. If you miss you are in an awkward situation. If you connect there is a great possibility you might end up in a position with your elbow out, being very vulnerable. I would prefer the same technique, with a cut that lead to an eventual grab if you wanted it. The cut leaves room for the technique to evolve, possibly even into other techniques.

Last edited by RED : 09-15-2010 at 02:58 PM.

MM
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:08 PM   #29
Aikibu
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Lots of good advice here, particularly about the angle of the "entry" and the difference between "catching" uke's arm and making connection -- points that will prove themselves equally important in a whole variety of techniques.
Well...there are some diamonds in the rough of this topic but that's about it...

I know that sounds trollish and for that I do apologize in advance but most of what I saw would get you in serious trouble. Too much focus on avoiding the strike/executing the technique and not enough on taking Uke's center...and where's the Atemi?

William Hazen
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Old 09-16-2010, 04:12 AM   #30
ctoor
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Hello everyone,

There are too many kind responses to individually thank each person.

I must start by clarifying what 'stepping straight back' means to me to clear up any confusion: if I step back - even if there is a slight angle or twisted hips - and uke is able to ram me or deliver successive attacks of the same type, then I am not out of the way. I consider this stepping straight back for this thread's purpose. When at look at the eHow video, I feel unsafe if I were the nage. I feel safer if I were the nage in Yamada Sensei's clip where he really moves off to the side.

From the kind responses I have gotten, it is clear that is important to get off the line of attack for this technique - but taking a step back is insufficient. Yamada Sensei shows a clear movement off to the side of the attack which I admire.

Next, it has become quite clear that nage cannot and should not grab a flying punch and for good reason. Parrying down the arm to lower uke's center and unbalance him, then grabbing/scooping the forearm or wrist makes more sense.

As a bonus from this discussion, I discovered that it is not necessary to grab uke's wrist in nikkyo and raise his arm up to get behind him - I am worried about uncontrolled elbows, you see.

This was a good discussion. Thank you everyone for your time and detailed responses!
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:26 AM   #31
phitruong
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line.

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:23 AM   #32
Aikibu
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line.

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance.
Much Better...

William Hazen
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:46 PM   #33
David Yap
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line.

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance.
To be fair and polite, Charles (the OP) has only asked for help on his "assigned" technique. He didnt ask whether the technique he described is martially practical.

In gassho.

David Y
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:07 PM   #34
Aikibu
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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David Yap wrote: View Post
To be fair and polite, Charles (the OP) has only asked for help on his "assigned" technique. He didnt ask whether the technique he described is martially practical.

In gassho.

David Y
Understood... Not every Aikido Technique has a Martial Application.

William Hazen
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:18 PM   #35
Rob Watson
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Understood... Not every Aikido Technique has a Martial Application.

William Hazen
I wonder if the converse is similarly true. In that maybe not every martial situation has an aikido solution? Perhaps a new thread is called for ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:28 PM   #36
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack? I have never seen that and if I did, I'd correct nage on the spot. As the punch comes in, nage steps diagonally foreward while re-directing the punch. Now that the "power"/punch has gone by you, uke's chin should fit into your elbow, enter into uke and throw in an angle----to the left front or right front. Step back is not an option since it's very hard to "catch" a punch. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:42 PM   #37
Rob Watson
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack?
When sensei demonstrates that technique as the one to practice.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:43 PM   #38
RED
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack? I have never seen that and if I did, I'd correct nage on the spot. As the punch comes in, nage steps diagonally foreward while re-directing the punch. Now that the "power"/punch has gone by you, uke's chin should fit into your elbow, enter into uke and throw in an angle----to the left front or right front. Step back is not an option since it's very hard to "catch" a punch. Just my 2 cents.
Off line I think is the head of the nail here.
If you view the videos above, there instances where the tsuki can be received off line to get the uke's weight on his front foot for an ura etc etc.

MM
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:18 PM   #39
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

The irimi in this version of irimi nage occurs following initial contact between uke and nage. This isn't the way we normally do it, but we've done it with this initial "entry," which is like the one used in kid's class for ikkyo (instead, in that example, of entering ahead of the rhythm of the strike and pre-empting it). Seems to me this irimi nage may also be related to versions where the opening involves ushiro tenkan and the irimi nage opportunity/relationship arises as uke is unbalanced by being brought into, around, and up in a spiral, the direction of which is then reversed... Also not my favorite, not that it matters.

FWIW, I think there is another aspect to the particular version of the technique addressed by the OP that is important for balance- taking aside from getting off the line and how that may affect uke's balance (and it may).

To me this aspect involves learning how to step back without withdrawing your center/weight from the interaction, so that when you (hopefully) make contact with uke you don't find yourself simply "swatting" at his hand any more than trying to "catch" his punch out of the air.

Regards,

David Henderson
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:14 PM   #40
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
To me this aspect involves learning how to step back without withdrawing your center/weight from the interaction, so that when you (hopefully) make contact with uke you don't find yourself simply "swatting" at his hand any more than trying to "catch" his punch out of the air.
I also am not a fan of in general of the "step back" response to a tsuki if the goal is to get to shikaku...however I totally agree w/ the above that it can be an invaluable training tool for the very difficult brain-body job of learning how to absorb/accept (the moving back off the line) without collapsing, so that there is a "hole" in front of uke but you continue to control the centerline and keep one's energy forward - at least that's how I experience it and work on it. YMMV.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:45 AM   #41
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
You cant grab a punch. It´s as simple as that.
What you can do is to make contact and affect the balance of uke. It´s very important to move backward with the intention still directed forward, you dont want to have the feeling of escaping or fleeing. While moving backwards, cut down (in your own center) along the arm of uke. The cutting motion goes from the shoulder to the wrist and starts making contact along the biceps. Drop your hips during the cut and transfer the drop to the arm of uke. If this is done successfully you have compromised the balance of uke and created a small opening.
Remember to be quite relaxed in your arm during the cut and to move backwards in a small angle.
This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido. It is a specialized technique that requires Aikido ukes to actually do it. Without our unique "stiff arm of death", which only Aikido people, amongst all the martial arts, actually do, one cannot execute this technique. Not if you are sixth kyu, not if you are an eighth dan. I defy anyone to actually do this technique on anyone who isn't colluding.

I teach it to my students, since it is part of the basic repertoire in Aikido but I have to ask the students to facilitate the technique by attacking in such a manner that it can be done. If they attack more like I have taught them to punch, there's no way. Anyone who can really strike will punch your lights out before you can complete the arc of the technique.

And this is true of most of the techniques we do which involve stepping back rather than entering.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:43 PM   #42
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Without our unique "stiff arm of death", which only Aikido people, amongst all the martial arts, actually do, one cannot execute this technique.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-18-2010, 03:58 PM   #43
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido.
One of the down sides of having kata and waza all wrapped into one is it gets confusing! As far as a vehicle to present principles waza is stinky but kata is great. Knowing the difference is a big step forward. I'd advocate sticking the particular technique into the kata basket and not think of it as waza or applied techniques but simply a teaching tool. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Ledyard is confused about this point lest anyone thinks so. At least I like to think about such things in this way.

Not to nit pick but I've run across quite a few karateka with the zombie arm of doom syndrome (ZADS- as in 'egads, 'es got ZADS!)) and I don't think they were 'infected' by aikidoka.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 09-19-2010, 12:50 AM   #44
WilliB
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido. It is a specialized technique that requires Aikido ukes to actually do it.
ROTFL
bulls eye!
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:48 AM   #45
dps
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

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Charles Toor wrote: View Post
My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.
Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.

David
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:09 AM   #46
dps
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
You cant grab a punch. It´s as simple as that.
If you think that tsuki means punch then you are right, but if tsuki means to thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuki) and thrust means to push or drive quickly and forcibly (http://www.answers.com/topic/thrust) then the technique makes sense.

David
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:00 PM   #47
Basia Halliop
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

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Charles Toor wrote: View Post
My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.
I assumed by figure it out he meant figure out how to do it correctly - which presumably is a large part of the point of going to class. 'Just doing it' when you're doing it wrong and without any respect to basic principles sounds like horrible training. Just fudge through and do it any which way that vaguely resembles the technique, avoid attempting to figure out how to improve it or how it's actually supposed to go, and hope that someday you'll magically start actually doing it correctly?

Of course 'figuring it out' is a process, and improvement won't come all at once, and it's best to aim just for small incremental improvements in understanding and performance, and sometimes different kinds of figuring it out take different kinds of practice, for which there is a time and a place, but I would hate to practice at any dojo where I wasn't ultimately pushed to try to figure it out...
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:30 PM   #48
Basia Halliop
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Regarding zombie arm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKhYHrJHA6k

Apparently the problem is not entirely unknown in other arts too .
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:28 PM   #49
grondahl
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

Ok. Whats the japanese name for punch then? Because all aikido waza I´ve seen involving some kind of punch has been called "tsuki"-something.

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If you think that tsuki means punch then you are right, but if tsuki means to thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuki) and thrust means to push or drive quickly and forcibly (http://www.answers.com/topic/thrust) then the technique makes sense.
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:35 PM   #50
dps
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Ok. Whats the japanese name for punch then? Because all aikido waza I´ve seen involving some kind of punch has been called "tsuki"-something.
I do not know the Japanese language and am relying on the internet for definitions. I hope those more knowledgeable will comment.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...word_for_punch
"If you are referring to the verb 'to punch,' you may say 'naguru.'

I was taught tsuki meant thrust like with a knife, jo, similar to a push or grab. In this context stepping back off line increases your distance between you and uke and gives you a better opportunity to unbalance your opponent .

Just one definition of tsuki that the technique fits.


David

Last edited by dps : 09-19-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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