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Old 10-17-2010, 11:58 AM   #1
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

One Reversal for Kotegaeshi

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-17-2010, 03:52 PM   #2
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...

Nagababa

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Old 10-17-2010, 08:04 PM   #3
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...
Constructive criticism indeed...

The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly. I thought the kaeshi was a very interesting counter. The technique seemed to engage mainly the shoulder as opposed to the spine/hips?
Didn't hear the explanation though.
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Old 10-17-2010, 10:12 PM   #4
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza, or is that the subject of the forthcoming series? I am guessing nage might ride ukes movement and continue to finish with a 'non attached' kotegaeshi shape that might look more like a sayu undo (sokomen?) movement.

best,
dan

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Old 10-17-2010, 10:18 PM   #5
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza
By doing a kaeshi-kaeshi waza? Of course to prevent that, there is the kaeshi-kaeshi-kaeshi waza. And to prevent that...
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:26 AM   #6
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...
a) I have no problem with you not buying my videos
b) I can and do execute this kind of thing on ukes my size or larger
c) I am sorry to be boring, but yes I do teach that way quite a lot. Folks who are impatient to get on with the throwing don't do well in my classes. I am more interested in making sure folks know exactly what they are trying to do. Especially when I am making a video, folks would not have any idea what I was doing without the explanation.

Videos are an issue because you can't "feel" what is going on. Ikeda Sensei won't put much of this stuff on videos for the general public because he knows they'll just think it's fake. So he only sells them at seminars after folks have had a chance to directly experience that it does work. I personally don't care whether you think it works or not so I put the stuff out there. Folks will respond or not. It's not my problem.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:31 AM   #7
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Constructive criticism indeed...

The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly. I thought the kaeshi was a very interesting counter. The technique seemed to engage mainly the shoulder as opposed to the spine/hips?
Didn't hear the explanation though.
Most of the energy ones runs in Aikido hits either the shoulders or the hips. If you like the "ball" analogy, the ikkyo techniques tend to go over the ball and involve the hitting the shoulders with the connection whereas the shihonage, kotegaeshi, hiji nage techniques go around the bottom of the ball and hit the hips. Many techniques actually hit both.
The one in the clip involves setting up a situation in which the partner is using you for support and then you essentially take that support away. It involves a bit more than that but that's most of it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:40 AM   #8
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Daniel James wrote: View Post
HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza, or is that the subject of the forthcoming series? I am guessing nage might ride ukes movement and continue to finish with a 'non attached' kotegaeshi shape that might look more like a sayu undo (sokomen?) movement.

best,
dan
We asked Ushiro Sensei about what happens when the two opponents in a martial encounter both have these skills. He said, "the one that wins is the one that gets inside the best."

I think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:58 AM   #9
Lan Powers
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

QuoteI think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.

Probably the most succinct explanation for the disconnect between the Atemi vs the "flowing-harmoniously with NO nasty striking" approaches to Aikido.
I, personally, like the detailed explanations and technical depth presented.
Fits my learning style, I guess....
Thank you Ledyard Sensei

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Old 10-18-2010, 02:08 PM   #10
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
a) I have no problem with you not buying my videos
b) I can and do execute this kind of thing on ukes my size or larger.
I think there is miscommunication here. I know you can execute this thing on anybody. My question was about your partner - not only smaller and weaker then you, but also not willing to do any technique on you. I'd say, in such set up, one doesn't need to train aikido at all to do kaeshiwaza In fact, on the clip we can see there is no technique(against tsuki) so there is not kaeshiwaza at all....

What I consider kaeshiwaza, when Tori is really doing a techniques on me, we can see clearly he is taking my balance, applying efficient physical locks etc. Then, I can demonstrate point by point, HOW to neutralise his attempt in different points of his technique(WHEN)(i.e. in the beginning, in the middle, in the end...ect) and WHY is it possible from biomechanical point of view and/or from timing point of view(with 3 basic timings)...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
c) I am sorry to be boring, but yes I do teach that way quite a lot. Folks who are impatient to get on with the throwing don't do well in my classes. I am more interested in making sure folks know exactly what they are trying to do. Especially when I am making a video, folks would not have any idea what I was doing without the explanation.

Videos are an issue because you can't "feel" what is going on. Ikeda Sensei won't put much of this stuff on videos for the general public because he knows they'll just think it's fake. So he only sells them at seminars after folks have had a chance to directly experience that it does work. I personally don't care whether you think it works or not so I put the stuff out there. Folks will respond or not. It's not my problem.
I'm not impatient. I understand the difficulty of the issue 'can't feel'. However, I don't believe the words can replace it. I expected very detailed physical presentation, kind of step by step instruction with separately filmed closeups to every detail(i.e. feet position, hips and body angles, force vectors, body to body reactions in contact points...etc). Instead all we can see is general picture, not helping at all to understand what you are actually doing.

Nagababa

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Old 10-18-2010, 02:16 PM   #11
AsimHanif
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Szczepan, you 'may' have a point. Would you mind posting a clip of you executing and explaining your points?
Thank you.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:22 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I think there is miscommunication here. I know you can execute this thing on anybody. My question was about your partner - not only smaller and weaker then you, but also not willing to do any technique on you. I'd say, in such set up, one doesn't need to train aikido at all to do kaeshiwaza In fact, on the clip we can see there is no technique(against tsuki) so there is not kaeshiwaza at all....

What I consider kaeshiwaza, when Tori is really doing a techniques on me, we can see clearly he is taking my balance, applying efficient physical locks etc. Then, I can demonstrate point by point, HOW to neutralise his attempt in different points of his technique(WHEN)(i.e. in the beginning, in the middle, in the end...ect) and WHY is it possible from biomechanical point of view and/or from timing point of view(with 3 basic timings)...

I'm not impatient. I understand the difficulty of the issue 'can't feel'. However, I don't believe the words can replace it. I expected very detailed physical presentation, kind of step by step instruction with separately filmed closeups to every detail(i.e. feet position, hips and body angles, force vectors, body to body reactions in contact points...etc). Instead all we can see is general picture, not helping at all to understand what you are actually doing.
This video is a "teaching tool". In other words, my partner is there to help me show other folks how to do something. Actually, in the clips that were edited out, I did spend some time getting a more committed kotegaeshi from my partner. I had to cut that out because Facebook clips can only be ten minutes.

I just got back from doing a seminar in Tallahassee in which I did get to play with a fellow who is substantially larger than I am. We call him "Shrek" and he weighs in at well over 300 lbs. I was quite able to do what I needed to with him. My dojo lacks seniors of similar body structure... sorry. I either have beginners who are huge and really strong but with no skills or I have pretty advanced students who are half my size (even after my recent weight loss). If you know any 300 pound 4th or 5th Dans who want to move to my dojo, please refer them. It would be fun.

Yes, it is an unfortunate aspect of training to a higher level that there are fewer and fewer folks who have the training to stop you or counter you. My partner in the video is a very accomplished Nidan but I doubt he could throw me in any controlled situation unless I colluded. But when you are teaching folks how to do a technique, that is not the time to have a contest. It is the time to slow things down and make what is happening clear.

Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat. You could possibly perform sutemi waza but no other reversal is possible once your structure is compromised. The whole idea is that you take the other guy's center at the instant of contact. That's what the clip is about. He didn't break my balance because I had already messed his up. Of course at the speed we were going, he could have countered the counter. That's always true when working slower.

And yes, as I said in the clip, there are a number of "crossover points" in most techniques at which a reversal can take place, assuming that the nage doesn't already have your center. The one in the clip from kotegaeshi is one from the first "crossover point" which occurs at the instant of contact. There are a couple of reversals that can take place at that instant. Then there are several that can take place at later stages of an attempted kotegaeshi, including a final sutemi waza if nage actually succeeds in performing the kotegaeshi.

The video I just released on Kaeshiwaza is entitled The Principles of Kaeshiwaza and is focused on just that, the principles behind a reversal. When I do Volume 2 it will basically be a presentation of a number of kaeshiwaza done from various Kihon Waza. There will be less discussion of principle and more techniques shown. I will put clips on-line when I film that one so as to not bore you as completely as I have so far.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:02 AM   #13
Michael Varin
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

This is kaeshi waza at our school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

This video was shot almost 3 years ago. It's a light exercise. Muscular resistance is discouraged. There are no explanations, and no contrived what ifs. What you see are guys actually trying to apply and counter techniques when they naturally arise.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:42 AM   #14
AsimHanif
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

"Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat"

Ledyard Sensei, could you explain this? One of my issues with most aikido I've seen is that this issue is not addressed...recovering when you lose your center.

Regards,
Asim
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:21 PM   #15
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
"Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat"

Ledyard Sensei, could you explain this? One of my issues with most aikido I've seen is that this issue is not addressed...recovering when you lose your center.

Regards,
Asim
This stuff is really all about atemi. The true martial application of these principles in a serious violent encounter will demolish the attacker. Every technique that we do is a strike we are "choosing" not to do. If those strikes become explicit rather than implicit as they are in practice, the result is destructive. The purpose of kuzushi isn't necessarily to set up a throw... it can be to simply disrupt the opponent's center enough that when you throw your strike(s), the opponent cannot defend nor will he be able to effectively move the energy of the strike to prevent injury. In most instances, unless the opponent is very skilled, kuzushi has the benefit of creating tension in the opponent. If you strike them when they are tense, your strikes have far more effect than if their structure was integrated.

If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:27 PM   #16
Michael Varin
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
George Leyard wrote:
If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.
Hmm? Interesting.

I would be inclined to make almost exactly the opposite statement.

Please, explain your statement, and where you believe those techniques come from and what their usefulness is.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:52 PM   #17
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
This is kaeshi waza at our school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

This video was shot almost 3 years ago. It's a light exercise. Muscular resistance is discouraged. There are no explanations, and no contrived what ifs. What you see are guys actually trying to apply and counter techniques when they naturally arise.
Takemusu; spontaneous reaction to spontaneous reaction - it does not look choreographed because it is not - it is a simple natural exercise and it is not supposed to look pretty - but it is a very effective exercise to develop your natural reaction to a force, etc. - nice job guys!

As far as George's video, it is an instructional piece and not an exercise or demonstration, so there will be a non-natural flow to it. From his slow and precise explanation of the different aspects of the reversal technique, I can see how it can all come together in a real attack - good presentation on that part George - thanks.

Greg
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:25 PM   #18
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.
Nice!

Some teachers have suggested the bunkai of aikido kata is the manipulation of ma-ai through taisabaki and timing that sets up shapes in uke that look like the afore mentioned techniques and might even finish in these locks.

Love to hear your view

dan

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Old 10-19-2010, 09:39 PM   #19
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Hmm? Interesting.

I would be inclined to make almost exactly the opposite statement.

Please, explain your statement, and where you believe those techniques come from and what their usefulness is.
As Ellis Amdur suggests in his book, Hidden in Plain Sight, one thought is that these locking techniques were put together by O-Sensei as a form of conditioning for the body to prepare it to better generate internal power.

I am not saying that these techniques, or at least some of them, might not have some self defense application. Variants of these techniques are used all the time by well trained law enforcement personnel. However, the thing to remember is that typically the police are not dealing with trained fighters but rather not very sophisticated criminals off the street.

Could anyone honestly think that if two Shihan level Aikido practitioners got in a fight, someone is going to win using one of these kihon waza in a form that looks anything like what we do in a dojo?

Years ago, when I did some koryu training under Ellis Amdur Sensei, he made a comment about some basics in one of these styles. he told us that it wasn't as if we studied these techniques with the expectation that we would use them to defeat an opponent. The practice was really to develop an understanding of how these basics worked so no one could do them on us.

These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc. However, as nearly as I can tell, in their original form there was simply no execution without first applying atemi. In extreme situations, the atemi alone would be the technique. Shioda's story of being cornered in Shanghai during the war by some Chinese intent on killing them is illustrative... the first guy through the door got a broken bottle in the face and the second guy threw a kick and Shioda broke his leg. That's all atemi waza.

Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen. That's because you generally can't pull them off against another professional.

Anyway, you can see the versions of these techniques in aikijutsu from which our Aikido techniques derived and they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.

It would be my belief that these techniques, in their kihon form, were for O-Sensei, different variations of physically describing what he saw as the essential movements and energies of the universe, William Gleason Sensei does some good explanation of this in his second book, Aikido and Words of Power: The Sacred Sounds of the Kototama in which he shows how various Aikido techniques embody certain energetic principles of the kototama.

Anyway, all this is just my opinion... it's fine with me if folks believe exactly the opposite. But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know... which is certainty possible. Many people know all sorts of things I do not.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:13 AM   #20
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc.


Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen.


they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.


But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know...
Once again, HIPS…

What if we place our martial artists in a weapon engagement? What would it look like? What situations might occur?

How many of their techniques would work for a muay thai, or a wrestler against an opponent armed with a sword? How many of their techniques would a muay thai or a wrestler use if they were armed with a sword?

-Michael
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:43 AM   #21
AsimHanif
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

GL:"If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art."

I agree that ikkyo, nikkyo, etc teach principles and are not techniques to use verbatim in a conflict (for the most part).
Also I'm a big believer that if I'm in striking distance, I'm in throwing distance and vice versa.

But my point was that when nage or uke lose center that doesn't mean they can't recover. I don't see this addressed much in most dojo. In a conflict, things don't go as planned and will not be as clean as usually practiced in a dojo setting. The ground ain't a bad place to be….at least in a one on one situation.
And even if I would agree that it's all about atemi, experience has shown that one strike often is not enough. And how much aikido training is devoted to properly striking? It's great if it works out that way, but….
Thanks.
AH
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:54 AM   #22
ewolput
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

Interesting discussion here, if we replace the technical terms by Tomiki's terminology we are discussing in that case how to come from simple basic techniques to sparring. In Tomiki's randori we are using a lot of atemi, not to knock down someone, but as a tool to throw someone. Kaeshi waza is possible on techniques which are not done perfect. This is the case of George Ledyard.
In a videoclip of Takeshi Inoue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7zLwiWhdg we can seen many kaeshi waza. This kind of randori is called hikitate geiko which is a flexible randori style.

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Old 10-20-2010, 09:49 AM   #23
raul rodrigo
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

I suppose that what I would have wanted to see in the video was a situation where George's partner really went after his center with a waza, it doesn't matter which one, and then was satisfied, if only momentarily, that the waza was on track---only to find that G was able to absorb the force and would come back at him with the reversal. What I think I see here is a waza that never began to bite. And so it does seem odd to me to call it a reversal.

Sacrifice throws, to my mind, would be one kind of waza that would be closer to this definition of reversal.

Now I understand that there are limitations imposed by the teaching format, so this particular clip is fine for me, as far as it goes. I am hoping that in the rest of the DVD or in future DVDs, there would be other scenarios/examples of a more energetic exchange between tori and uke.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:23 AM   #24
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I suppose that what I would have wanted to see in the video was a situation where George's partner really went after his center with a waza, it doesn't matter which one, and then was satisfied, if only momentarily, that the waza was on track---only to find that G was able to absorb the force and would come back at him with the reversal. What I think I see here is a waza that never began to bite. And so it does seem odd to me to call it a reversal.

Sacrifice throws, to my mind, would be one kind of waza that would be closer to this definition of reversal.

Now I understand that there are limitations imposed by the teaching format, so this particular clip is fine for me, as far as it goes. I am hoping that in the rest of the DVD or in future DVDs, there would be other scenarios/examples of a more energetic exchange between tori and uke.
Ok, I need to explain this again. His technique didn't "bite" because I was "inside" his power before he could take my center. It looks like he wasn't trying, I know. That is not what is really happening. If you have had a chance to take ukemi from someone who is really high level, you'd have had the feeling that, no matter what you do, you never feel like you did a good attack. The nage is messing with you long before contact is made.

This is much the same. By the time nage touched me, it was already mine. This has a lot to do with the fact that there was no break in connection after I had "target lock on" and initiated the attack, in this case the tsuki, and when nage avoided the attack and grabbed my wrist. The instant he touched me he was part of a back flow that went "inside" his power from my center.

This clip was just a sample filmed when I was teaching a class to some folks who are already quite familiar with these principles. So little explanation of the "how to" sort was required. It was more how to apply principles they already understood in the role of nage to the role of uke. The material on the first Kaeshiwaza DVD set I've done has a bit more "how to" but states on the cover that a familiarity of the material covered in several of the earlier videos I've done. Skipping straight to the kaeshiwaza material won't make much sense to folks without that knowledge.

Let me say that looking at kaeshiwaza as how one recovers from having the other guy take ones center is only a rudimentary understanding of the concept. A really skilled opponent will not let you recover once he's got you. Even a sacrifice throw demands some mistake or opening on the part of nage. If he doesn't give you that, he has you.

The real goal is to never lose your center in the first place. A real counter takes place the instant the nage puts his hands on you. So you won't see anything that looks like a good developing technique because it never gets to develop, it's gone in the instant he touches me.

There has been a lot of discussion of "internal power" on this forum. Dan H has talked at length about developing the structure to be "unthrowable". Well, it's not about just not being throwable because your structure is so immovable... you still have to strike or throw the opponent. Now I don't have anything more than the most basic idea of how to use my internal structure the way the real internal power guys like Mike S and Dan H can. That's something I am currently working on. So I don't have anywhere near the power they have. But even with the little I have done, it's not so easy to break my balance, even when I am moving. You are sure not going to do it by torquing on my wrist, which is the level of most people's kotegaeshi.

What I am doing here would qualify as "power neutralization" which is a related but separate issue from "internal skills" and can be done using methods that are subtle but still technically would be considered external power, simply because of the way I am generating the movement.

Anyway, perhaps Ikeda Sensei is right that you have to feel it before it makes any sense. Like all really good technique, it looks fake until you get to feel it. That certainly is my own goal... I want to have a level of technique that looks completely fake to someone watching and which is somewhat incomprehensible, and therefore un-counterable to my opponent. I want him wondering after that fact, why he fell down at all.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 10-20-2010 at 11:26 AM.

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Old 10-20-2010, 12:01 PM   #25
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Kaeshiwaza Sample Clip - George Ledyard

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
The video I just released on Kaeshiwaza is entitled The Principles of Kaeshiwaza and is focused on just that, the principles behind a reversal. When I do Volume 2 it will basically be a presentation of a number of kaeshiwaza done from various Kihon Waza. There will be less discussion of principle and more techniques shown. I will put clips on-line when I film that one so as to not bore you as completely as I have so far.
I'm still a bit confused after reading your explanations. It was very clear to me from the beginning that with your level and experience, attacker can't do any technique if you not allow him. It is very surprising that you mention something about ' contest' and 'real confrontation'? I'm not sure where you are coming from... I didn't mention any of such stupid ideas. I believe such ideas have nothing to do with our discussion.

This DVD is supposed to be a teaching tool. Who is targeted audience? Other 6th dans? Advanced aikidoka? Everybody? Depending of the targeted audience the presentation must be completely different.

My working assumption is that you targeted everybody. So it is very clear that you should allow for less experienced attacker to take your balance (partially or completely), so customer can see how to execute kaeshi waza from such position. Why it is very important? You are high level aikidoka, but your customers are mostly far less experienced then yourself, so they are not able to preserve their balance in the first moment of the contact with skillful attack. They will fall down sooner or later, but it is simple to present how to recover from different unbalancing in order to counter a technique. These are basic biomechanical skills.

Next point is dealing with teaching by principles. From the clip it is not at all clear what principles you are using to counter a technique. The customer should see step by step demonstration for every used principle in some kind of separate frame. Because of the nature of principles, you also should be able to demonstrate the same principles against other kind of attacks and in different kaeshi waza. Otherwise you can't call it principles. I hope it is a case in this DVD.

I also don't really understand (looks like I'm a bit slow LOL) your discussion about atemi in the context of kaeshi waza. Generally speaking, kaeshi waza is possible when there is a opening in the technique. With atemi or without atemi, if there is no opening no kaeshi waza is possible. Also, both aikidoka are trying create opening (with atemi or without), not only one who is trying kaeshi waza. If both start to hit atemi only, it becomes boxing and not aikido anymore. So I don't see a point discussing here atemi.

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