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Old 06-06-2003, 01:55 PM   #1
Peter Klein
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what technique against a jab?

hi
i sometimes do some training with other martial artists. most of the time i just do taisabki oder something diffierent but in close unlucky quarters the jab always gets me. u guys got an effective aikido technique against it?
thx
peter
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Old 06-06-2003, 02:09 PM   #2
siwilson
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Move off line of the attack and enter with Ishin!!!

Actually it is hard to give a "use this technique" (and most probably useless) as every jab (& strike) is different. Maybe Atemi, maybe not! Only training will really answer this. I look forward to reading other opinions on this.

Osu!
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Old 06-06-2003, 02:14 PM   #3
Peter Klein
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what is ishin?
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Old 06-06-2003, 02:47 PM   #4
siwilson
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My understanding of Ishin is "Whole Heartedly", as in giving everything!

Osu!
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Old 06-06-2003, 02:57 PM   #5
Dave Miller
 
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If the jab is just a quick "arm jab" that doesn't have the whole body behind it, just get off the line. If they put their body (and balance) into it, shomen ate would be a good counter. The primary question, I would think, is whether or not they put their body into it.

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Old 06-06-2003, 03:07 PM   #6
Peter Klein
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what is shomen ate?
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Old 06-06-2003, 03:48 PM   #7
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
what is shomen ate?
Click here for an animation of shomen ate.

DAVE

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Old 06-06-2003, 04:01 PM   #8
Peter Klein
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ohh u mean the direct form of counter attack from yokomen uchi?
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Old 06-06-2003, 04:18 PM   #9
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
ohh u mean the direct form of counter attack from yokomen uchi?
You can do it from yokomen uchi or from any number of attacks. It's extremely effective against a baseball bat!

The basic gist is to enter and place "unbendable arm" on uke in such a way as to topple them backwards. It can be soft and flowing or very hard and direct, depending on how nage chooses to do it.

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Old 06-06-2003, 05:01 PM   #10
erikmenzel
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How about doing it to them before they do it to you??

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 06-06-2003, 07:47 PM   #11
Jim ashby
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Do it to them before they do it to you, that's called pre-emptive retaliation. Works for me.

Have fun.

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Old 06-06-2003, 10:25 PM   #12
PhilJ
 
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For jabs, I usually assume they're coming at the face (for demo purposes). Getting off the line is great, but [standard boxing] jabs are so fast, I'm too slow for them.

I either prefer the irimi/ishin method. Legs are firmly rooted, so they're a good target for manipulation, as are many other spots.

Holding up my hands like a boxer's training partner is fun too; jabs don't hurt the hands much.

But I've always wondered what more is out there. Anyone else care to share something they've used or experienced with this?

*Phil

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Old 06-07-2003, 02:04 AM   #13
shihonage
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You can not just isolate the jab from the entire fight situation and your opponent.

A jab is too fast to do any technique on. You have to move, avoid, use flinch response, and most importantly, ATTACK.
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Old 06-07-2003, 04:45 AM   #14
Kensai
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As the guy jabs at ya, couldnt you just tobi Ukemi into his legs?

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 06-07-2003, 05:07 AM   #15
PeterPhilippson
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I think there are a few separate bits to this thread. First of all, let's just acknowledge that sometimes the attacker takes us by surprise, or is faster than us. Then we just get hit, and the question is whether we lose our grounding WHEN we get hit.

If we have quick enough responses, we can get out of the way using tai-sabaki, and then use atemi or technique (iriminage or tenchinage variants) as our response.

The final bit is about flexibility. If I try for a lock on the attacking arm, and it is pulled away, I need to be able to move flexibly into something else rather than be stumped.

It's all just practice.

Yours in Aiki,

Peter

Peter
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Old 06-07-2003, 11:04 AM   #16
sanosuke
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move off the line, then irimi,irimi and irimi
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Old 06-08-2003, 11:14 AM   #17
George S. Ledyard
 
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Control of Ma-ai

Everything depends on control of ma-ai or spacing. This term is also translated as "critical distance".

"Action" is faster than "reaction".

A revealing exercise is to have your partner stand in front of you within reach of your dominant hand. Explain to him that you are going to tap him on the chest with your fingers. Allow him to put his hands up about six inches or so apart. At this point he has far more information than any defender in a real fight is likely to have. He knows what hand will strike and he knows exactly what target will be struck. Then try to tap him on the chest going in right between the hands. I can take guy with some substantial martial arts background and hit him 9 or 10 times out of 10 this way. In fact I can put my hands inside my hakama and still hit him at will.

What this means is that if you allow the attacker to come into range (the distance at which he can strike you without having to move his body mass) then you will be hit by anyone with the least experience. This is the most important concept one needs to understand.

Space and Time are Interchangeable

More space equals more time and less space equals less time. Most Aikido interactions in the dojo take place at a ma-ai that requires one full step for uke to attack nage. A jab is executed at closer range. It simply requires a quick shuffle step. If you allow a decent boxer to get into range and he throws a jab, that jab will be in and out before you can do an irimi or move off the line or anything else for that matter. Boxer's have enough trouble even blocking a good jab much less moving their whole mass out of the way.

Initiate

The only way to be fast enough to deal with a boxer's jab is to control WHEN he throws it. The ma-ai point is a mutual distance assuming you both have a common reach and one isn't using weapons. At the instant an attacker has you in range, you have him in range as well. If you choose the moment that the two of you hit the ma-ai point the attacker is forced to either throw his attack at that instant or to back up. If you enter and he doesn't throw his attack, you will be able to hit him because he will not have enough time to react to your strike (unless he backs up in which case you keep on going in until he tries to hold his ground).

If you are the one that picks the time of the attack, then you do not have any reaction time. In fact that attacker is now reacting to you. This means that no matter how fast his physical jab is, you have enough time to deal with it as you move in.

Simultaneous Offense and Defense

The irimi or entry must go directly to the center. If you attempt to evade by moving off the line you will neutralize any time advantage you had gained by initiating. If you look at teachers like Saotome Sensei and Nishio Sensei you will see that they teach a range of atemi which are designed to strike the attacker at the instant that he would have hit you.

At the instant that you physically come together with your attacker the technique will be created. You can't go in intending to do a particular technique (although you can do certain movements that would make that technique more likely to be appropriate) because you do not control what the reaction of the attacker will be. Whatever he chooses to do at the moment of contact combined with whatever entry you are using will CREATE the technique that occurs.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-08-2003, 11:51 AM   #18
DGLinden
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I teach Aikido from boxing positions because I spent a great deal of my life boxing before I found Aikido at age 19. I can still hit anyone I want, from any distance away (with all respect to George) at the age of 51. Yes, fast hands is all important, but there are, very real tactics that can be used to defend against a boxing attack.

Last year I taught a seminar in Germany specifically geared to boxing attacks and found that a gentleman from Sri Lanka who had studied some weird Tai boxing had a very effective jab against me, but still could not get inside to do any damage if the basics of my boxing method were followed.

The overall concept is to understand the boxing format, jab, jab, jab, watch the opponent and time his response, jab, then overhand right, or right hook or right hook and follow with a left hook. What ever the plan, a boxer never throws one punch - always combinations - and so you can not think in terms of defeating one punch or you will get hammered by a right hand or a follow up jab. George assumes that he can be effective with whatever he does, but the truth is that any boxer will hit you three times before you can execute most aikido technique.

What to do then? Boxing already tells you. Circle away from the strong side. Circle away from the strong side - which is the right, usually. So we move initially to the left (his left to our right) as the jab is thrown - using George's timing method we elude the jab and stay away from the heavy power punch. Then we time, time, and time some more. Eventually we are set up for a right hand, a left hook, an uppercut - whatever. We then have all the options we ever want to execute - and again George is right Saotome Sensei teaches hundreds of variations of technique for this.

This important thing is to see the attack as a whole, not one punch, and respond to the whole, not one fist.

Daniel G. Linden
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Old 06-08-2003, 01:40 PM   #19
George S. Ledyard
 
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Jabs from Boxing

Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I teach Aikido from boxing positions because I spent a great deal of my life boxing before I found Aikido at age 19. I can still hit anyone I want, from any distance away (with all respect to George) at the age of 51. Yes, fast hands is all important, but there are, very real tactics that can be used to defend against a boxing attack.

Last year I taught a seminar in Germany specifically geared to boxing attacks and found that a gentleman from Sri Lanka who had studied some weird Tai boxing had a very effective jab against me, but still could not get inside to do any damage if the basics of my boxing method were followed.

The overall concept is to understand the boxing format, jab, jab, jab, watch the opponent and time his response, jab, then overhand right, or right hook or right hook and follow with a left hook. What ever the plan, a boxer never throws one punch - always combinations - and so you can not think in terms of defeating one punch or you will get hammered by a right hand or a follow up jab. George assumes that he can be effective with whatever he does, but the truth is that any boxer will hit you three times before you can execute most aikido technique.

What to do then? Boxing already tells you. Circle away from the strong side. Circle away from the strong side - which is the right, usually. So we move initially to the left (his left to our right) as the jab is thrown - using George's timing method we elude the jab and stay away from the heavy power punch. Then we time, time, and time some more. Eventually we are set up for a right hand, a left hook, an uppercut - whatever. We then have all the options we ever want to execute - and again George is right Saotome Sensei teaches hundreds of variations of technique for this.

This important thing is to see the attack as a whole, not one punch, and respond to the whole, not one fist.
I don't have any issue with what Linden Sensei says here. I don't see any place at which we disagree, his movement tactics are completely compatible with the principles I outlined. I didn't want to infer that there would only be one strike by the attacker. I think one needs to assume that any attacker with training is intending to attack using some set of combinations.

In my post above I didn't get into what the entry techniques were that I would use. I only talked about the issue of the entry itself and the timing / spacing issues. Everything I was taught by Saotome Sensei and my other teachers called for striking the attacker on his first beat. No matter what combination of strikes he is intending to utilize, he should be struck on the instant he would have landed his first strike on you.

I am assuming we aren't talking about fighting for fun here. If I am to deal with a boxer, I can't be trading blows. The first strike I do should be one that either puts the opponent out or causes him to break the timing of the combination he is intending to do. This would normally entail a strike to the eyes or the throat. I am large enough myself to stand someone up with a punch but I wouldn't trust that in a life and death encounter. Boxers, Muy Thai fighters, folks like that can take incredible punishment. I don't think mere power technique would be sufficient.

At the same time there is the additional issue of "Kokyu". Although I am using atemi waza on the entry I need to enter in such a way that there isn't a second strike possible. I have watched Saotome Sensei do this over the years but I think the clearest explanation I have seen was by Ushiro Sensei at the Aiki Expo last year. For anyone who didn't see him he is there again this year. Although his style is karate, the principles he is talking about are identical to those we are attempting to utilize in Aikido.

The issue here is timing. I have watched hundreds of hours of Extreme Fighting and UFC type bouts. In many of those fights there were very competent kick boxers like Maurice Smith up against grapplers. The issue was always who could control the timing. The grapplers stayed out of range until the instant at which they felt the striker was distracted (perhaps by the kicks to the front knee they kept doing) then they entered. In all the fights I watched, I never saw a striker land more than one punch in the time it took for the two opponents to come together. It wasn't that the striker was intending to do single strikes, he obviously was trained to do all sorts of combos. It is simply that in the time it takes for two bodies moving together at high speed to meet, there simply isn't time for more than one strike to take place. The fastest strikers I saw in those fights hit their opponents once on the way in (the grappler's simply covered any targets that would have put them out in one blow and absorbed the hit). We need to do much the same thing although the techniques we use once we are in are different than those the grapplers are using. That's why the atemi aspect is important.

If the Aikido practitioner can enter decisively just as the boxer does his jab, he should be able to either preclude or neutralize the second strike of the intended combination. I remember reading a story about Shioda Sensei dealing with a boxer after his senior students had been having little success. They had all been attempting to deal with the jabbing hand. Shioda Sensei entered in directly to the back hand and he threw the guy with a shihonage variation.

In the end it still comes down to skill level. Linden Sensei's boxing may be better than my Aikido and I am going to get clocked. It's not the fault of the art but rather the fault of the practitioner.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-08-2003 at 01:43 PM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-08-2003, 02:04 PM   #20
ikkitosennomusha
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Guys,

There are some good comments but, really, you all are making this harder than it has to be. There are many great way to deal with a jab. In fact, I would say that you really do not have to deal with it at all!

Let me explain, *First*, what is a jab? It is an extension of one's self and one's ki just like a puck but faster and snappy. What does Aikido teach you? It teaches us to match the uke's speed until redirection occurs then at that point, its up to you how mercyfuly ou want to be.

*Second*, Aikido also teaches us to instantly rush as someone mentioned earlier, Ishin. As soon as a uke, boxer, or schmuch extends his arm in any form or fashion, in fact, at the very first twitch, Nage should be all over him and thus it ended before it began. A jab is usually thrown for a distraction so it can be followed up by the *big one* but if Nage lets the warrior out, the boxer will not even have a chance to get the second punch off!

Now that we have discussed some ideaology, lets discuss some methodology. Shomen Ate as mentioned above will work if you are totally committed but it would not be my first response because if you are a little late, you are ging to have to deal with the second punch,in which you can still prevail but there is no need to do more work than necessary.

My policy is usually quick and dirty on this. I recommend directing yourself to the outside for a irminage or go a little further to the back side and kokyunage straight down controlling the head. You can even do something like kotegaeishi because the fact that he has extended his arm to me is a gift. Honestly, you will not even know he was trying to throw a jab if you allow your ki to flow!

I hope this helps and inspires some of you to go for it! I have delt with this before and oneday some of you will see that ts like a kick, not that hard to defend against

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 06-08-2003 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 06-08-2003, 02:06 PM   #21
ryujin
 
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Circle Jabs

You can set up an excercise where one person starts out throwing jabs at a slow pace and you just move off line, either direction. as you get used to this gradually pick up the pace. Or add a parry to the movement if you wish by simply bringing your hand up to protect your face. Add a turning motion to this like in arimi nage. One thing to keep in mind is that most likely the hand from the person jabbing has a farther distance to travel than your own hand does from your side to your face. The other thing I've learned over the years is getting hit while moving hurts a lot less than standing still and getting hit. : )

Personally, I have had success with several techniques from the first jab in the dojo during randori and while I was employed as a bouncer. Shomen ate by getting off line and entering to the inside of the jab. Hadaka jime by getting off line and entering to the outside of the jab and the above mentioned arimi nage.

Carl Bilodeau
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Renshinkan

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Old 06-08-2003, 02:39 PM   #22
George S. Ledyard
 
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Wow!

Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
Guys,

There are some good comments but, really, you all are making this harder than it has to be. There are many great way to deal with a jab. In fact, I would say that you really do not have to deal with it at all!

Let me explain, *First*, what is a jab? It is an extension of one's self and one's ki just like a puck but faster and snappy. What does Aikido teach you? It teaches us to match the uke's speed until redirection occurs then at that point, its up to you how mercyfuly ou want to be.

*Second*, Aikido also teaches us to instantly rush as someone mentioned earlier, Ishin. As soon as a uke, boxer, or schmuch extends his arm in any form or fashion, in fact, at the very first twitch, Nage should be all over him and thus it ended before it began. A jab is usually thrown for a distraction so it can be followed up by the *big one* but if Nage lets the warrior out, the boxer will not even have a chance to get the second punch off!

Now that we have discussed some ideaology, lets discuss some methodology. Shomen Ate as mentioned above will work if you are totally committed but it would not be my first response because if you are a little late, you are ging to have to deal with the second punch,in which you can still prevail but there is no need to do more work than necessary.

My policy is usually quick and dirty on this. I recommend directing yourself to the outside for a irminage or go a little further to the back side and kokyunage straight down controlling the head. You can even do something like kotegaeishi because the fact that he has extended his arm to me is a gift. Honestly, you will not even know he was trying to throw a jab if you allow your ki to flow!

I hope this helps and inspires some of you to go for it! I have delt with this before and oneday some of you will see that ts like a kick, not that hard to defend against
My Gosh, Dan! I guess we've been missing something not to have realized how easy this is. Must be we've been thinking too much. I guess I would like to see our friend here demonstrate the ease of his technique on Lewis from the DC dojo... just a thought.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:32 PM   #23
PhilJ
 
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Very interesting ideas. I'm truly wrapped up in this one.

Mr. Ledyard, you talk about moving and striking/dealing with uke in a way that neutralizes the combination or next strike. But like what was said, many folks are trained to take a great deal of physical punishment. In fact, even in a normal confrontation, many people tend to "go numb".

Are you talking about simple atemi, kyusho-jitsu (sp?), both, none? Do you or Mr. Linden have issues with taking the legs on irimi?

*Phil

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Old 06-08-2003, 09:56 PM   #24
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kokyu

Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
Very interesting ideas. I'm truly wrapped up in this one.

Mr. Ledyard, you talk about moving and striking/dealing with uke in a way that neutralizes the combination or next strike. But like what was said, many folks are trained to take a great deal of physical punishment. In fact, even in a normal confrontation, many people tend to "go numb".

Are you talking about simple atemi, kyusho-jitsu (sp?), both, none? Do you or Mr. Linden have issues with taking the legs on irimi?

*Phil
When I saw Ushiro Sensei demonstrating this I realized that I was seeing what I had been trying to do but simply much better. Ushiro Sensei was talkining about the use of kokyu and his entry placed him in a postion from which there wasn't a second strike possible. Of course he was usuing ukes not fighting but it was clear that at that moment he was capable of finishing with a strike or with a throw, his choice.

I have seen Saotome Sensei do this for years but hadn't understaood what he was doing (hismovement is so subtle that I often find myself understanding what he had been doing when I get a chance to see and hear other teacher's explanations of the same principles).

Although there is no reason why attacking pressure points can't be part of this it isn't central to what I am talking about. The strikes I am talking about are pretty much to the eyes or the throat. There are others but these are the basics. The issue is how do you get in? The hits aren't the central issue.

Saotome sensei's simultaneous defense / offense techniques are done in such a way that the attacker is sure right up until the moment that he is struck that he was going to hit you. These are deflection and strike techniques. The nage doesn't move off the line to evade the attack. He deflects the attack while moving into the center for the atemi; it is after he enters to the center that the fade off the line takes place to the extent that there is one. At the instant of the atemi you have, not only the physical strike which can cause physical dysfunction, but the atemi can be part of getting kuzushi where you have the attacker's center and can continue striking or throw at your choosing.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-09-2003, 12:43 AM   #25
Col.Clink
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I wasn't really going to comment on this thread, but since one of my students ( that boxes) asked a similar question a couple of nights ago, I thought I'd just add my 2 cents.



Well, I had no answer (to the student)as I have never tried to apply technique to a boxer, or anyone in a confrontation as to date I haven't had to , so, I asked him to throw a few punches and we'll see what happens. After his first two attempts, I had to tell him to actually try and hit me, as I couldn't give an appropriate response to a half hearted punch. He then let rip with a flurry of jabs and combo's, I was actually taken back by surprise as I didn't expect such a true attempt, and all I managed to do was to "slap" his hands/fists away from my direction. I actually thought I was going to get hit, and he was a big fella who could quite easily drop me if he had of connected. It was when he went for the big hit that I found myself standing over him and he was on the floor in front of me. I really dunno how!

So, I asked the other students what I did, as I had no idea as it happened so fast The following is from their words. I had 'slapped' his hands away with each strike, moving to the outside of each arm as it came in, I was moving in a crescent(tenkan?) with each punch he made, when the big hit was coming ( they could see him winding up) I apparently stepped back just before he connected which I guess made him over stretch, as they said he went all off balance. I then went to the outside of the arm and grabbed his head and continued his forward motion, causing him to fall on his front, which he fell quite nastily being in a boxing stance.

When he got up he was about as rapped as I was, he said he was really trying to hit me, I said "I know! I'm glad you didn't!"

So, we tried to do it all again, as we both were curious how we could both improve,(I was more curious on how I had managed to avoid him) but it lacked the same intensity, and I think we both were a little afraid of hurting each other after that, although I said we would practice on it a little more after his next grading, which we will, and i'll try to get a technique on, but I highly doubt I could without a LOT of practice.

So, to the original question, I think moving has a hell of a lot to do with it, ma-ai, and a heap of luck. I mean, the first thing we are supposed to do in a confrontation is to get out of the way, so just keep doing it until there is an opening to move I guess.

What George and Daniel said holds a lot of water too

Cheers

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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