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Old 08-12-2010, 07:03 PM   #151
Howard Popkin
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you are single, right? such a long commute for sushi. personally, i'd just tag along with howie popkin, because sooner or later, you will be able to get your hand on some fresh sashimi (if you can get pass his aiki). then again, he just married recently, so he's probably shore lined.
UUMMM WHAT ????????????????

Little known fact....on the first date, I asked my now wife if I could fish fish on our honeymoon. Yes, she looked at me as if I had 20 heads.

BUT..... I held her to it Yes, I got a really good one, and I'm not talking about halibut

Hope to see you soon Phi.

Howie
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:43 AM   #152
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Dan, I know, thanks!

Phi: Haha. I will meet Howie soon..we were supposed to hang out when he came to Japan to visit his teacher. Although me sitting in his boat for hours just so he can teach aiki to me is

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 07:12 AM   #153
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Howard, looks like you're using your shoulders big time in that first picture. That's the last time I listen to you!
 
Old 08-13-2010, 07:32 AM   #154
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Oh I disagree, look again real close. He's sinking and applying aiki-age to the pole. And look at that well developed dantian which he is rotating back and up....why...why...his center is in his hands, and he is just standing there using the fish's energy against him. Though I do not see "a golden rod!!"
I have seen him apply the same technique at a bar...I watched in awe. It seemed so well practiced and effortless, almost like "natural" internal movement. That's it...a new path!
Damn that guy...he's a genius!
Fishing and beer!
I'm sure his seminar notices to soon follow
Dan
 
Old 08-13-2010, 07:45 AM   #155
Howard Popkin
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Oh Patrick,

You're just jealous of my clearly oversized Dantien

No golden rod ?????????????

That's a jigging master 500 gram, it doesn't come in gold

Halibut anyone ?
 
Old 08-13-2010, 09:04 AM   #156
Budd
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Fishing and Beer with internals?? I'd cross oceans for that one!
 
Old 08-13-2010, 09:12 AM   #157
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Hey Phi,
re: Diet.
interesting.
Can you say a bit more about why you said that? Were you serious?
half kidding and half serious. the kidding was the bean and cabbage to produce ki/chi.

i have been working on fixing my back problems. i got the book "permanent pain cure" and the first part was change your diet and drink lots of water. so i am going on the low-fat and low sugar diet approach (have family history of high cholesterol and diabetics anyway). on top of that i drank lots and lots of water constantly (small bladder isn't helping). my muscles and joints feel a lot less tight and back pain is lessen. your body is a walking biochemical factory, so the intake should affect it in ways.
 
Old 08-14-2010, 02:41 AM   #158
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Fishing and Beer with internals?? I'd cross oceans for that one!
Budd,

I dare you to wear that quote you have under your name there on a shirt if you ever come to Japan

Props!
 
Old 08-14-2010, 12:55 PM   #159
Budd
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Budd,

I dare you to wear that quote you have under your name there on a shirt if you ever come to Japan

Props!
Heh . . you know I would, right?
 
Old 08-16-2010, 06:43 AM   #160
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Occasionally, Route 28 near Boston takes you to internal power.
 
Old 08-16-2010, 08:33 AM   #161
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Indeed
 
Old 08-17-2010, 07:47 AM   #162
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Occasionally, Route 128 near Boston takes you to internal power.
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 08-17-2010, 07:51 AM   #163
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend.
Cheers
Dan
Since Im in Toronto for the following week, I soooo wanna take the greyhound to Boston for some r34l AIKI!

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:05 AM   #164
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend.
Cheers
Dan
Who are these "informed sources"? Could we get a quote/source so we can read those astounding remarks, also? Are they in the same messages where they call 'friendship' a 'cancer'?

Why not let Tom tell us the difference himself, BTW? Or perhaps you could explain to us how dantien movement is done that moves the arms? These are good topics for AikiWeb, but somehow the subject keeps drifting to the subjective rather than any real how-to commentary.

Personally, I think it takes people a number of years to learn how to move things with the dantien/hara. Most people aren't able to transition to that mode, particularly in some art where they've moved mainly with the arms/shoulders for many years. Learning a few jin tricks is one thing; learning to move with the dantien/hara is another. If someone is looking for a 'path' to internal power that uses the dantien/hara (I believer Ueshiba, Tohei, and others have mentioned such a thing), it's certainly a topic that deserves serious discussion. Perhaps you could give us a few pointers since you have been doing these things for so many years, etc.?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:13 AM   #165
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Who are these "informed sources"? Could we get a quote/source so we can read those astounding remarks, also? Are they in the same messages where they call 'friendship' a 'cancer'?

Why not let Tom tell us the difference himself, BTW? Or perhaps you could explain to us how dantien movement is done that moves the arms? These are good topics for AikiWeb, but somehow the subject keeps drifting to the subjective rather than any real how-to commentary.

Personally, I think it takes people a number of years to learn how to move things with the dantien/hara. Most people aren't able to transition to that mode, particularly in some art where they've moved mainly with the arms/shoulders for many years. Learning a few jin tricks is one thing; learning to move with the dantien/hara is another. If someone is looking for a 'path' to internal power that uses the dantien/hara (I believer Ueshiba, Tohei, and others have mentioned such a thing), it's certainly a topic that deserves serious discussion. Perhaps you could give us a few pointers since you have been doing these things for so many years, etc.?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well now Mike, you will have to tell us... since it is you have stated right here that "certain informed sources" (your quote) tell you that is how I move; shoulder heavy, non dantian and with simple jin tricks.
Please do tell us who they are so we can have a better understanding.

Dan
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:19 AM   #166
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well now Mike, you will have to tell us... since it is you have stated right here that "certain informed sources" (your quote) tell you that is how I move; shoulder heavy, non dantian and with simple jin tricks.
Please do tell us who they are so we can have a better understanding.
A worthy Dan-answer, indeed. Why not ask Tom? He was recently at a workshop in San Francisco (a few months back) and I'm certain he's made great strides since then. He should be able to give you a few pointers.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:28 AM   #167
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

I asked you who these supposed "informed sources" were you keep pointing to...to validate your consistently negative comments about me. Try to follow along.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:36 AM   #168
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Let's see if I'm following this. You make a statement discussing "informed sources":
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=162

And now you want to know who the "informed sources" are? I make it Dan = 1 Strawman = 0 with that one.

But back to the topic... why don't you and/or Tom give us some pointers on how to move with the dantien? As I've noted before, you're on record as downplaying moving with the dantien because there are "other ways" to develop internal strength. Apparently you're a master of all methods, so I was simply asking you to explain why you trivialize my comments about moving from the dantien. Apparently it is something fairly easy to do and/or to changeover to, in your opinion. In my opinion, it's difficult. If it's easy, I thought you could shed some light on how to do it for us.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:43 AM   #169
Budd
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Since Im in Toronto for the following week, I soooo wanna take the greyhound to Boston for some r34l AIKI!
Psst, come just over the border and we can play - haven't gotten hands on anyone that does Ark's stuff . Telling you up front, tho, I use too much shoulder and not enough dantien!
 
Old 08-17-2010, 09:18 AM   #170
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Let's see if I'm following this. You make a statement discussing "informed sources":
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=162

And now you want to know who the "informed sources" are? I make it Dan = 1 Strawman = 0 with that one.

But back to the topic... why don't you and/or Tom give us some pointers on how to move with the dantien? As I've noted before, you're on record as downplaying moving with the dantien because there are "other ways" to develop internal strength. Apparently you're a master of all methods, so I was simply asking you to explain why you trivialize my comments about moving from the dantien. Apparently it is something fairly easy to do and/or to changeover to, in your opinion. In my opinion, it's difficult. If it's easy, I thought you could shed some light on how to do it for us.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
You missed the point. I was quoting... you...in that post. Maybe I should have named you as the one who always says this tripe and gossip. The " informed sources" was an exact quote of what you have said. I have pointed out to you before that I dont't put much stocking gossip and gave you an example of things I had heard. I actually agree that it is hard for some people to tell the difference with certain things. For that reason I suggest they continue to research and get out there andmeet others and get an education. I just don't use it to hammer people either behind their back or in public. Its always best to talk about someone as if they are in the same room.

Still missquoting me about the dantien I see. That was about spear shaking I believe. Your own understanding and specific example of store and release is not the only way to use the dantien. For the most part I don't really concern myself with you and what you do or don't do, except when you discuss things as an absolute when they are not.
Dan
 
Old 08-17-2010, 09:43 AM   #171
Lee Salzman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I actually agree that it is hard for some people to tell the difference with certain things. For that reason I suggest they continue to research and get out there andmeet others and get an education.
Forgive me for interjecting, but I just noticed you two agreed on something. Quick, someone take a screenshot!

So before this discussion goes to dark places again (queue cutscene of Tron light cycle game ending in spectacular mutually assured destruction here), let me ask a discussion prompt:

Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 10:02 AM   #172
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Forgive me for interjecting, but I just noticed you two agreed on something. Quick, someone take a screenshot!

So before this discussion goes to dark places again (queue cutscene of Tron light cycle game ending in spectacular mutually assured destruction here), let me ask a discussion prompt:

Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.
Lee,

Would you mind spinning your question off into a new thread? This one is shot I'm afraid and it's a good question you're asking. A new thread would make it easier to follow if someone stumbles across it at some point in the future.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 10:35 AM   #173
HL1978
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post

Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.
You probably won't know if all you know is shoulder driven movement in terms of feel.

There are some things you can watch for. For example for suburi watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mbE5PAKfAU

The motion begins in the middle of the body and propagates outwards into the arms and legs. This forces the arms back (and the weightshift back). This is followed by a closing motion as the weight shifts forwards. You might notice some motion in the front leg as the body becomes convex to offset the "crunch" in the middle.

compare this to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Viwj...eature=related

at ~2:55 or so where its all arm movement with no motion going from the middle on out (or weight shift).
 
Old 08-17-2010, 11:34 AM   #174
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.
As a fellow plebe, something I've been working on over the years is the idea of letting my upper body just "hang" on things via the contact points of my hands (chairs, railings, walls, etc.). Then seeing how I can do the following check points (for example) - both as synchronous and asynchronous steps as well, for training purposes:

1) Hook up the connections "inside", stretch them with your breath, then your intent - how does that affect the object you are connecting to? How does is affect you through the connected object?

2) Put the feeling of the ground "pushing you up" and gravity "pulling you down" as cleanly in your hands (or any other contact point) as possible.

3) The legs, middle and back should be doing the "work" (along with your breath, intent and managed connections, yadda yadda)

4) While the legs, middle and back are doing the "work", you should be "listening" to what's going on inside "you" to minimize any blockages from flexing local muscles (they will try to "help", yes they will, particularly the shoulders, even when you swear to all you own that they are not "helping", they are, yes, they are, damn them)

5) The intent training is different from the conditioning training is different from the strengthening training, yet they all work together (or should as you make progress) and at worst, they should not be interfering with each other.

6) Different from the "intent" training (but related) is "listening" to what's going on inside yourself and isolating the bits you need to improve and make progress.

At least those are some basic primers for my mental map - YMMV/FWIW/ETC

Last edited by Budd : 08-17-2010 at 11:37 AM.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 11:50 AM   #175
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Lee,

Would you mind spinning your question off into a new thread? This one is shot I'm afraid and it's a good question you're asking. A new thread would make it easier to follow if someone stumbles across it at some point in the future.
Jason, I've brought this thing about the dantien up before and a number of people didn't realize the seriousness of the issue at the time. However, the topic is germane in terms of this thread-topic "What paths lead to internal power??". Essentially the topic devolves, as I've said previously in this thread and in a number of other threads, to the fact that "internal strength" is not a simply-defined topic like "shooting basketball hoops" where you either can or cannot do some example.

There is a very big difference between full-blown internal-strength skills and a diverse number of partial-skill approaches. In Chinese martial-arts there are general distinctions made between "internal-style" martial-arts and "external-style" martial arts, but actually all the external martial-arts that I'm familiar with are based on the principles that most people here call "internal strength". I.e., the general understanding of these skills is so poor at the moment that most westerners think that some jin/kokyu skills put them "in the know" in terms of doing "internal strength" or "internal power".

The point to bear in mind is that in Aikido there are clear statements from Ueshiba, Tohei, and others about 'complete relaxation' and 'use the hara'. A lot of martial-styles and wannabe-masters use more what I'd call "muscle-jin" variants of "internal" training. This is not a bad thing because it's at least a foot-in-the-door toward good kokyu skills, but people should bear in mind that there's enough complexity in these skills that there's plenty of room to go wrong and wind up somewhat off the kinds of skills that Ueshiba et al were advocating/demonstrating.

Basic jin skills, say in terms of being able to demonstrate static abilities like 'ki tests', are a good start. However, when a person goes from static to dynamic usage of jin/kokyu skills the easiest thing to do is to begin powering away with jin/kokyu (whether in aiki/hua-jin or in walking through someone's posture) and to never really learn how the dantien is actually used. I.e., the common scenario (and you can safely bet your house on it) is not going to be what Ueshiba, Tohei, and others were talking about (and there's room to discuss that; it's not settled).

Let me re-emphasize that jin/kokyu skills are great and necessary (IMO) as a good first start, but other factors are important. While I appreciate the interesting ideas like "these men are teachers.." and that people will be able to recognize various subtlies as they arise, my experience is that this is not true. So I offered that bit of advice and people can take it or ignore it since in the main I'm more interested in watching what people in Aikido do with the football that has been tossed to them. But in terms of the topic about "paths", the dantien/hara discussion is very important, as are a few other topics that have never been discussed on this forum. I.e., this whole subject is a very complex topic... it's not some singularly-defined merit-badge skill that is simply added to one's own already-excellent Aikido (or other art) skills.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 

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