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Old 08-09-2010, 02:19 PM   #101
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Dan, I can only speak to my direct experience in that regard, which ain't a whole lot. I can genuinely say that I would love to get hands on time with people that you've worked with who are really demonstrating skill in aiki and martial skill in its application.
We will have to see what we can do.
You can talk to several people you know who have felt various members of the old and existing crew and also watched me spar with various MMA guys. Some of the old crew, including some who've been gone for years, stop by to play (I make them teach). Many have had kids and or moved but they still show up here and there right up to last Sat. Andy is thinking of going semi-pro; every place he goes, he does extremely well. I keep trying to talk him out of it.
Anyway, here's the rub, couple of people enjoyed training with them more than me!!
Remember what I said about teachers surrounding themselves with good people who keep them on their toes??
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-09-2010 at 02:23 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2010, 02:50 PM   #102
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We will have to see what we can do.
Awesome.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You can talk to several people you know who have felt various members of the old and existing crew and also watched me spar with various MMA guys.
I heard very good things about Andy that were unsolicited only because I try not to ask for secondhand info, you know (sometimes, I fail, but I'm human)? It's just something where I prefer to get my own hands-on corporate knowledge and that tends to serve me better in the long run. I'm always fine with admitting I don't know what I don't know.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Some of the old crew, including some who've been gone for years, stop by to play (I make them teach). Many have had kids and or moved but they still show up here and there right up to last Sat.
That's how it should be, I think - train 'em up so they can do their own thing - welcome 'em back to the fold when they can visit. Percentage-wise, do you find they stay within the traditional setting (or have brought the stuff from your group to a traditional art) or just kinda do their own thing wherever they can do it?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Andy is thinking of going semi-pro; every place he goes, he does extremely well. I keep trying to talk him out of it.
Is it because of the cumulative punishment you just get over time or are you still trying to get him to play with sticks??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Anyway, here's the rub, couple of people enjoyed training with them more than me!!
That's because they probably drink beer like men should instead of those girlie mojitos and gimlets *ducks*

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Remember what I said about teachers surrounding themselves with good people who keep them on their toes??
Dan
Well, yeah and that just seems like a no-brainer when you want to be good (great, even). Fastest way to have a dojo full of skill-less wankers is to cultivate a flock of obsequious yes-persons. There's the traditional hardcore folks with tight reishiki, which is something else . . but I don't think that's what we're talking about - and the denigration of arts into parody starts from layering the BS on top of something absent content to begin with (Dan, where's the quote you like to use . . I keep paraphrasing it).
 
Old 08-09-2010, 03:27 PM   #103
Howard Popkin
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Dude,

You just said "girlie" about Dan's drinks.

AWESOME

Howie
 
Old 08-09-2010, 06:55 PM   #104
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Awesome.
I heard very good things about Andy that were unsolicited only because I try not to ask for secondhand info, you know (sometimes, I fail, but I'm human)? It's just something where I prefer to get my own hands-on corporate knowledge and that tends to serve me better in the long run. I'm always fine with admitting I don't know what I don't know.
Andy is very...very good, but there are others, a few good ones that come to mind: Pete, Mike, Glen, Richie, Todd, James, Chris, Eric, Danny,...and so on. My overall point of bringing this up was your mentioning the idea of the next generation in regards to IP/aiki I think it was a bit myopic of the aikiweb readership movement. I also really wonder who is teaching just IP and who is really teaching IP/ aiki, and who is teaching Ip/aiki in real combatives, but that's for another day.
I wanted to be clear...many of the new people here mostly teachers in their own right in other arts, have now felt people who trained with me for anywhere from seven to seventeen years. In my case this isn't a new movement. It's old news to me. In fact, many of the new group want to do some the older training methods used; paried jujutsu drills for IP/aiki building, and some other proprietary things we developed ourselves.

Quote:
That's how it should be, I think - train 'em up so they can do their own thing - welcome 'em back to the fold when they can visit. Percentage-wise, do you find they stay within the traditional setting (or have brought the stuff from your group to a traditional art) or just kinda do their own thing wherever they can do it?
Well I think you are confusing them with the teachers training here now. I never taught them "traditional" anything, so they were not "going back to somebody else." They were my people. We always did MMA and they went out to other schools to test them (selves).

Quote:
Is it because of the cumulative punishment you just get over time or are you still trying to get him to play with sticks??
No, we both have had our share of injuries over the years, broken bones, and what not, that's not it. He has four little girls and a military wife and in my opinion has nothing to prove. I see it as....We've both walked into various groups and done very well....so what's the point? I keep telling him you can go to various places and keep refining under pressure without having to risk finances and also training time away from home from family for a couple of fights a year. Oh well.
Sticks?? Did you say sticks? He loves sticks..twin sticks that is. Speaking of which I have to wrap this up and go teach sticks.
Quote:
That's because they probably drink beer like men should instead of those girlie mojitos and gimlets *ducks*
Uhm...er....uhm...sputter...cough... Girlie? Well, I do have that tender touch!

Quote:
Well, yeah and that just seems like a no-brainer when you want to be good (great, even). Fastest way to have a dojo full of skill-less wankers is to cultivate a flock of obsequious yes-persons. There's the traditional hardcore folks with tight reishiki, which is something else . . but I don't think that's what we're talking about - and the denigration of arts into parody starts from layering the BS on top of something absent in the content to begin with
(Dan, where's the quote you like to use . . I keep paraphrasing it).
"In lue of substance...you frequently find formality."

It's not a quote though, it's mine. I coined it...apparently after visiting the same places you did; groups that created this stifling, rigid and formal atmosphere; yet could never...on their best day....deliver.... on something that was a martially viable skill set; with weapons and without. Yet remained so convinced that they could!
I can't say why it is..but the more competent the people I meet are, the more down-to-earth, and relaxed, even funny they are about all this budo stuff.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-09-2010 at 07:03 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2010, 08:33 PM   #105
Budd
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Andy is very...very good, but there are others, a few good ones that come to mind: Pete, Mike, Glen, Richie, Todd, James, Chris, Eric, Danny,...and so on. My overall point of bringing this up was your mentioning the idea of the next generation in regards to IP/aiki I think it was a bit myopic of the aikiweb readership movement. I also really wonder who is teaching just IP and who is really teaching IP/ aiki, and who is teaching Ip/aiki in real combatives, but that's for another day.
Yeah, no interest in having that argument over the internet, that's an in-person discussion for those that really want to have it - I'm fine saying "I don't know" until I get more info with time. But I do understand your other point regarding myopic aikiweb readership (hey that was me until I got hands on you, then Mike).

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wanted to be clear...many of the new people here mostly teachers in their own right in other arts, have now felt people who trained with me for anywhere from seven to seventeen years. In my case this isn't a new movement. It's old news to me. In fact, many of the new group want to do some the older training methods used; paried jujutsu drills for IP/aiki building, and some other proprietary things we developed ourselves.
No that makes sense and I was trying to be vague since I wasn't sure if you guys were doing any system or your own thing (that I'm not otherwise defining because of its proprietary nature) - but I did mean the old group, rather than the new influx.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well I think you are confusing them with the teachers training here now. I never taught them "traditional" anything, so they were not "going back to somebody else." They were my people. We always did MMA and they went out to other schools to test them (selves).
Fair enough - sounds right and I was definitely just asking rather than violating the first rule of a fight club I don't belong to

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No, we both have had our share of injuries over the years, broken bones, and what not, that's not it. He has four little girls and a military wife and in my opinion has nothing to prove. I see it as....We've both walked into various groups and done very well....so what's the point? I keep telling him you can go to various places and keep refining under pressure without having to risk finances and also training time away from home from family for a couple of fights a year. Oh well.
Okay, understood - mine was a lame attempt at humor since I thought you'd mentioned him as one that you couldn't get interested on the "old school" stuffs with the blue uniforms, skirts, etc. . . definitely wasn't commenting beyond that.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sticks?? Did you say sticks? He loves sticks..twin sticks that is. Speaking of which I have to wrap this up and go teach sticks.
Twin sticks sounds fun, always meant to find some folks that wanted to dance to some FMA, but haven't had the opportunity, yet.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Uhm...er....uhm...sputter...cough... Girlie? Well, I do have that tender touch!
Hahahahaha uh huh . .

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"In lue of substance...you frequently find formality."
Bingo, I knew it was yours, just can't seem to remember it exactly, on demand.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's not a quote though, it's mine. I coined it...apparently after visiting the same places you did; groups that created this stifling, rigid and formal atmosphere; yet could never...on their best day....deliver.... on something that was a martially viable skill set; with weapons and without. Yet remained so convinced that they could!
Belief systems, I wager. Lots of human history gets shaped by belief systems, I believe . . and if someone's martial practice is dependent on me doing x y z, in that order, lower case, with no hyphens, in order to finish the alphabet . . well . .

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I can't say why it is..but the more competent the people I meet are, the more down-to-earth, and relaxed, even funny they are about all this budo stuff.
I don't know, either. I think you have to be basically weird to be fascinated endlessly by this stuff . . it's just difficult when you're delusional, psychotic, a control freak, arse, etc. . . (any combination) in addition . . and a number of those types have found refuge in martial arts - particularly when the model for years and years is/has been blind obedience/following . . seems rife for abuse, especially once culturally removed when it has to be learned and pantomimed.

But as far as paths go . . do folks that have come through your doors and since moved on, do any of them have their own groups to propagate things further? Part interest on my part, part looking at models to follow and more data points, etc. And honestly enjoying the discussion as it's evolving. No agenda either way. . I know my role as a seeker and happy to just walk that path for a bit, collecting info as I can.

Enjoy the stick session *jealous*.
 
Old 08-09-2010, 11:16 PM   #106
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Tha was funny about Andy and the stick. I forget the budo people talk and remember...what you said about him not wanting to do the other was correct...I just forgot I told you........
All that said he was very good with armor on and freestyling it.
I just got in and I'm beat...having a glass of....grumble ...uhm... beer... and hitting the sack.
Dan
 
Old 08-10-2010, 12:01 AM   #107
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

In the interest of fairness and disclosure . . At a seminar in the April/May timeframe . . I was observed drinking one or two martinis of varying colors (at least one had an umbrella, I'm sure of it) in addition to my manly beers served cold from the tap . .

Okay, not AT the seminar, but at the dinner after one of the days at the seminar . . sheesh . . if there's nitpickers like me out there, that would've been too easy.

Really manly beer, I tell ya, but since they came later darned if I could tell you exactly what they were . .

Bringing this back full circle (or swish, or swig . .YMMV), one of the paths towards developing internal power is to get out and work with people at seminars who are teaching Internal Strength/Power/Martial Arts . . it may have been mentioned a time or two.

*cough cough*
 
Old 08-10-2010, 10:57 AM   #108
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Yeah, no interest in having that argument over the internet, that's an in-person discussion for those that really want to have it - I'm fine saying "I don't know" until I get more info with time. But I do understand your other point regarding myopic aikiweb readership (hey that was me until I got hands on you, then Mike)..
Well I hate wading into that very unpopular and highly prejudicial topic, of IP/aiki and actually being able to fight with it.. It's like trying to debate the beauty of your loved one. You could line up ten thousand objective opinions that will never change the one. There's no winning that debate, neither is there in a review of martial artists.

Most do not have the experience, education and understanding to engage in all aspects of that discussion...but they are convinced they are capable of it...until they meet certain people who truly are, face to face. Thats why I say ten thousand words of debate end when you meet those same people in person, hence the reason the remaining detractors will NEVER.....EVER...meet in person. They know what is going to happen, and it exposes everyones understanding on the spot.

Quote:
...Belief systems, I wager. Lots of human history gets shaped by belief systems, I believe . . and if someone's martial practice is dependent on me doing x y z, in that order, lower case, with no hyphens, in order to finish the alphabet . . well . .
I have called for a fair standard, based on what aikiweb did to several people who were making claims, to now be used for others who want to discuss IP/aiki as if they know something..."show!"
It is not going to happen. The results are to defining and finite and they tend to remove the debate points of those who attempt to redefine things to fit their views, I guess just because... it's their view!. You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to as just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.

When it comes to IP/aiki, my own meaning and observation is not limited to the those most often discussed here. I meant to be far more inclusive. Some here refer to the ICMA masters and their developement of internals, some refer to the few in the JMA who have anything by way of internals worthy of being called "developed." Beyond that discussion I challenge:
  • Who is teaching that portion of their art in a cohesive and clear manner, that has real value, past technique or form. One sure indicator is how much of what they do is tied to their "technique."
  • Who has students who can demonstrate it in a free manner.
  • And who....knows how to use whatever, in a manner that has martial efficacy across the board..
  • What happens when you start kicking and punching and trying to or succeeding in taking them to the ground?
I agree whole heartedly that the discussion ...can only...be discussed in person. There is a reason I advocate going out and meeting as many as you can who are supposed to be good and seeing what they can do and what their students can do. It protects those looking, and helps them to continuously define and re-define what good really means and what they want out of their pursuits.
I've never bought into this living legend Japanese and Chinese teacher stuff either. I have read more B.S. about ICMA masters who were "scary" and JMA aiki teachers who were "amazing."
Which turned out to be anything but. Beauty does lie in the eyes of the beholder I guess.
Of course there are some VERY good teachers out there and they can use what they know, The key points are
a) whether or not they are good,
b) whether or not they know how to fight with what they know-outside their system,
c) whether or not they can and will teach it.
I think you and I pretty much agree on all of those points.

Quote:
...I was trying to be vague since I wasn't sure if you guys were doing any system or your own thing (that I'm not otherwise defining because of its proprietary nature) - but I did mean the old group, rather than the new influx.
Other than the old group were more raw recruits who I brought up, and the new group are mostly VERY experienced with anywhere from twenty to forty plus years in different arts; both are facing the same dilemas from different ends of the spectrum. I had to redefine things to make them more universal for so many different approaches. In that light I removed the idea of applications since they were a road block to many. Now, after meeting the old crew, the new crew wants to do more of my own ideas of application. I will leave you to figure out why that is.... The joke here is that we are going back to "the old way of MMA."

Quote:
Fair enough - sounds right and I was definitely just asking rather than violating the first rule of a fight club I don't belong to
Ooooh... you have been informed of the recent "Don't talk about it" eh? I tell everyone at at seminars if they talk about the seminar or me on the net without clearing it with me, take a long look, because you will never see me again.

Quote:
Twin sticks sounds fun, always meant to find some folks that wanted to dance to some FMA, but haven't had the opportunity, yet.
Well, its all the same to me, knife, sword, single stick, two stick, spear, hand to hand, for me they are all versions of the the same thing.

Quote:
I think you have to be basically weird to be fascinated endlessly by this stuff . . it's just difficult when you're delusional, psychotic, a control freak, arse, etc. . . (any combination) in addition . . and a number of those types have found refuge in martial arts - particularly when the model for years and years is/has been blind obedience/following . . seems rife for abuse, especially once culturally removed when it has to be learned and pantomimed.
Jill calls it "Cowboys and indians"
Dressing up and playing out an era and culture beyond your experience opens up that culture to be redefined by many; student and teacher alike.

Quote:
But as far as paths go . . do folks that have come through your doors and since moved on, do any of them have their own groups to propagate things further? Part interest on my part, part looking at models to follow and more data points, etc. And honestly enjoying the discussion as it's evolving. No agenda either way. . I know my role as a seeker and happy to just walk that path for a bit, collecting info as I can.
Of the dozen or so who got something, most are just doing the dad and husband time out thing...kids everywhere!!!!! A couple moved too far away, three are talking about coming back as the kids have gotten older, hence their recently showing up. There is no end of them kidding me "Hah! You've been discovered!" Remember, they have seen me close the dojo and stop teaching altogether...twice... with no notice to anyone. So they're cracking up at the recent turn of events and waiting for me to do it again!

oh yes...hundreds of others just were in and out and never amounted to much, we all know how that goes.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. Should have responded to your comment. I've enjoyed the exchange as well, Budd.

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2010 at 11:05 AM.
 
Old 08-10-2010, 02:11 PM   #109
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to [are] just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.
My understanding of the idea of "natural internal power" is that it's simply a recognition that we all have the capability and, as such, can pay attention to that part of the "nature" of our own bodies to develop it. It doesn't mean "don't train with as many talented people as you can." If anything, to me it simply implies the good advice of "learn how your body works organically" (as opposed to ritualized form), and that basic equality between all people you described in an earlier post. Everyone does "have it," it's just that not everyone is aware of it..."it" being the functions of the body which manifest that thing you do. I'll readily buy the idea that most people who have the very slightest ability probably think they're operating with a greater portion of their potential than they are, but speaking as one of the more Shinto ritual involved people here, I've never been given the impression that the concepts magically make the reality. If anything I've been told repeatedly that the proof is in the pudding and you only get better at anything by training with people who are better than yourself...with the implication that any serious student will eventually branch out and compare training methods.

Sorry if I've misread your meaning, but you seem to be implying something very different from my experiences...and I'm not speaking at all about the quality or presence of IP/whatever itself, purely the approach I've practiced which you seem to be now commenting on.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-10-2010, 03:07 PM   #110
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Sorry if I've misread your meaning, but you seem to be implying something very different from my experiences...and I'm not speaking at all about the quality or presence of IP/whatever itself, purely the approach I've practiced which you seem to be now commenting on.
You did. There are certain rituals and practices that are indeed power building. but IP/aiki is not relegated and as simple as only that.
However, they are not "natural" nor is the various mind/body intent, and breath power training a natural affair. You will not get there without being shown. These things are far more mental and involve a learned control and discipline not a "oh yeah I do that everyday" tyoe of event. Look I have shown people into shinto and decades of misogi...they had no clue, could not even touch it. I had an MMA guy look at me last night and say. "It's so simple in concept..why can't I do it?"

What I said was contextual within aikiweb discussions
You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to as just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.
Look, anyone can do whatever they want, all the power to them. I am limiting my own discussions of their efforts;
To when they involve themsevles in these discussions and then insinuating what they can deliver by way of IP/aiki (or even potentially delivering) compared to what is being shown/ discussed in these discussions.
It is a very fair and even handed approach to what has gone on in the past.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2010 at 03:21 PM.
 
Old 08-10-2010, 03:10 PM   #111
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
My understanding of the idea of "natural internal power" is that it's simply a recognition that we all have the capability and, as such, can pay attention to that part of the "nature" of our own bodies to develop it.
I'd have to flip through a few books to find the quote, but I'm pretty sure it's in one of the books about Yang Cheng Fu and it basically says something like, "These skills are not intuitive, but must be taught". Not saying that no one can have a few I.S.-related overlaps, ever, but that the development of these skills is considered something "natural" in the sense of "pre-birth" (Early Heaven), while our normal strength is considered to be "post-birth" (Later Heaven). It takes training to develop the skills (or pieces/parts of the skills, more likely, for most people).

Then, too, there's another quote attributed to Yang Cheng Fu that goes something like, "These things are simple once I've shown them to you, but it would take several life-times for you to figure them all out".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-10-2010, 03:26 PM   #112
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

There is some measure of resentment going on in these threads. Everyone wants some measure of respect for their training. It's one of the reasons why people get personally attacked so often. Okay fine.
Where is the respect for those who actually can and have delivered, and then openly share and teach?
Then...respect for the existence of IP/aiki as real and something out of the ordinary, as witnessed by, experienced by and now trained in by; hundreds of people from aikiweb and practiced by thousands...hell, tens of thousands, the world over?
I think the dialogue and process needs to be more even handed.
What I've been advocating is a very fair and even handed approach using the same standards established right here in the past. I have been trying to use it to bring people together and enjoy their arts more, instead of splitting people apart.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2010 at 03:40 PM.
 
Old 08-10-2010, 05:07 PM   #113
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is some measure of resentment going on in these threads. Everyone wants some measure of respect for their training. It's one of the reasons why people get personally attacked so often. Okay fine.
Where is the respect for those who actually can and have delivered, and then openly share and teach?Then...respect for the existence of IP/aiki as real and something out of the ordinary, as witnessed by, experienced by and now trained in by; hundreds of people from aikiweb and practiced by thousands...hell, tens of thousands, the world over?
First off, sorry again for misunderstanding what you meant. Speaking for myself, I don't resent you. I see comments that occassionally seem too sweeping to me...and since I do tend to skim these conversations, I know I've contributed to more than my fair share of the myopic diversion. Sorry for that as well. I've been trying to refrain from posting so much for just that reason...and will probably do a better job in the future.
That said, I'd love to hear more about the folks other than the small handful I keep seeing here. Nothing against you guys at all, it just seems the best approach might be to encounter more than 3 or 4 people...or 5 or 6 even. I hear quite a bit of respect for you, Mike and Ark, but I would love to hear about other folks.
Coming into these conversations relatively late, I see quite a bit of respect for you folks and what you're teaching, because so many folks do describe your lessons as being so revolutionary to their training of many years.
I gotta go. Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit. Anything else I think of to say I'll do via PM like I ought to.
Thank you for the thoughtful responses, both you and Mike!
Take care folks.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-10-2010, 08:43 PM   #114
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

I sometimes think that too many 'martial artists' get hung up on some role-playing thing about "respect" and other ritualistic behavior. Perhaps people should get around 'history', rituals, 'respect', conformation, etc., and simply ask 'how does it work?'. Cut through the B.S.

Either someone knows it well enough to explain it (or at least the basic principles) or they don't. As long as people go the route of the obvious diversions and those obviously looking for followers, I tend to personally think that most of them are maybe not worth the time. Ever see Ueshiba Sensei worry about the people who didn't show him stuff? No... he simply went after what he could. He did what he could do. He worked hard. He showed his results.

Good "paths" lead to good results... you'll know them when you have them. People not interested enough to look?.... at some point in time you have to grok whether it's friends or results you're looking for.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-10-2010, 09:36 PM   #115
Marc Abrams
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

I have enjoyed an AWESOME vacation in Sonoma/Napa valleys. It has been fun to catch up on this thread. I will present an interesting analogy. I had the privilege of meeting some remarkable winemakers and wineries. Some wineries make meritage (fine red wine mix) by waiting until the individual types of wines are done with the barrel aging so what you mix is what you get. After all, there are some "formulas" for these blends. Then, there are some more experienced winemakers (making finer wines of course) who wait 1/2 way thru the barrel aging before making the blends to finish aging in the barrel. This is based on some real-life experience. Then, I went to a winery where the winemaker literally makes the blends BEFORE barreling. This wine maker has over 30 years of ACTUAL HANDS-ON experience about making fine wines. Of course, this winery is considered a top-flight winery.

There are some people who like to pretend that they can do "research" and "study" IP from readings, internet, books...... and learn anything about what people are discussing. One such person is consistently asked specific questions to indicate any REAL understanding of what people are working on and learning from others. There is no substitute for real-life experience from teachers who can actually teach what they are talking about.

Mike made a very good point about the issue of "making friends." People spend far too much time trying to be defenders, supporters........ Simply put, go out there and train with people like Dan, Mike, Ark..... Do your personal work to try and develop some of these skills that these people teach. The remarkable thing that you discover is how little you really do know when you see what is out there and own up to where you really are. Talk has always been cheap. Walking the talk has always been another issue all together.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 08-10-2010, 10:33 PM   #116
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike made a very good point about the issue of "making friends." People spend far too much time trying to be defenders, supporters........ Simply put, go out there and train with people like Dan, Mike, Ark..... Do your personal work to try and develop some of these skills that these people teach. The remarkable thing that you discover is how little you really do know when you see what is out there and own up to where you really are. Talk has always been cheap. Walking the talk has always been another issue all together.
Marc Abrams
I dunno Marc
I can think of so many examples of Teachers in Budo who would disagree with this. Some of their stories, which have been published here and there, tell a different story, of how they "missed it" in only training budo as research in better ways to kill, instead of thinking to enjoy the ride...and in particular, making friends.

One fella mentioned how a teacher showed him how her friends from budo took care of her, her house, her cats, when she was in the hospital. Going on to ask him "If you were in trouble, who in budo would take care of ....you?"
Another famous teacher saying budo is about life, not killing, and that you should use it to build your life and friends. That guy is extremely capable and yet has many friends.
Yet another well known and very capable married couple, who insist on using budo to build a community and group around them.

And quoting Ueshiba as an example of not role playing and only doing your research and not caring about friends, or supporters (of all things OMG are you kidding me?) or respect or anything else is just simply a freaking comedy. What a joke!

You guys can do what you want...if community and friendship isn't a factor in your budo, then there is no point in discussing it further, it will not be missed by you.
I think for many others...it is an empty message. I certainly do not support it. In fact if it wasn't for a good friend of mine convincing me to care about helping others...I wouldn't be here AT ALL. I would not be helping, I would still be in a closed dojo. I think he was right all along, and I personally know a couple of dozen people who were very glad I listened.

On second thought if the message we want to send is not to care about people and making connections and only learning a better way to fight ..then it makes it clear what the goals are for those people in teaching, It's just for the money or fame. Seems to me that sort of behavior in budo is rather well known and breeds sycophants, cult like behavior and beliefs and hangers on.....

Healthy relationships and the now evil word "friends" would not stand for that sucking up B.S.
Good luck with that, I know where I stand on the issue. I do budo for much, much, more than a better way to fight or for impartial and removed and disinterested knowledge and research, and I think I am a better man for it.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2010 at 10:43 PM.
 
Old 08-11-2010, 07:49 AM   #117
Marc Abrams
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I dunno Marc
I can think of so many examples of Teachers in Budo who would disagree with this. Some of their stories, which have been published here and there, tell a different story, of how they "missed it" in only training budo as research in better ways to kill, instead of thinking to enjoy the ride...and in particular, making friends.

One fella mentioned how a teacher showed him how her friends from budo took care of her, her house, her cats, when she was in the hospital. Going on to ask him "If you were in trouble, who in budo would take care of ....you?"
Another famous teacher saying budo is about life, not killing, and that you should use it to build your life and friends. That guy is extremely capable and yet has many friends.
Yet another well known and very capable married couple, who insist on using budo to build a community and group around them.

And quoting Ueshiba as an example of not role playing and only doing your research and not caring about friends, or supporters (of all things OMG are you kidding me?) or respect or anything else is just simply a freaking comedy. What a joke!

You guys can do what you want...if community and friendship isn't a factor in your budo, then there is no point in discussing it further, it will not be missed by you.
I think for many others...it is an empty message. I certainly do not support it. In fact if it wasn't for a good friend of mine convincing me to care about helping others...I wouldn't be here AT ALL. I would not be helping, I would still be in a closed dojo. I think he was right all along, and I personally know a couple of dozen people who were very glad I listened.

On second thought if the message we want to send is not to care about people and making connections and only learning a better way to fight ..then it makes it clear what the goals are for those people in teaching, It's just for the money or fame. Seems to me that sort of behavior in budo is rather well known and breeds sycophants, cult like behavior and beliefs and hangers on.....

Healthy relationships and the now evil word "friends" would not stand for that sucking up B.S.
Good luck with that, I know where I stand on the issue. I do budo for much, much, more than a better way to fight or for impartial and removed and disinterested knowledge and research, and I think I am a better man for it.

Dan
Dan:

I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 08-11-2010, 08:47 AM   #118
Mike Sigman
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.
I was just thinking how this current diversion from the topic mirrors almost exactly some conversations from 5-6 years ago about internal strength. If I recall correctly, someone made an appropriate observation that it's probably wiser to have some good and demonstrable skills before worrying about all the other aspects. "Friendships", "respect", "Budo", "Wu De", and so on are all good things, but they're not definitive parts of which "paths lead to internal power". Same comment made all those years ago on this same forum. How much has really changed since then and for how many people?

The years creep slowly by, Lorena,
The snow is on the grass again;
The sun's low down the sky Lorena,
The frost gleams where the flowers have been;




FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-11-2010, 08:31 PM   #119
Tim Fong
 
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

I don't have to be best friends with the people that I regularly train with. But, I have to be able to have mutual respect and trust. I prefer not to roll or spar with people whom I don't trust and where there is no mutual respect. That's not training -- that's a fight. There is definitely a place for fighting too, but let's not confuse the two.

I guess it's different for people who mostly do solo practice and non-agonistic drills.

Last edited by Tim Fong : 08-11-2010 at 08:44 PM.
 
Old 08-11-2010, 08:59 PM   #120
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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I don't have to be best friends with the people that I regularly train with. But, I have to be able to have mutual respect and trust. I prefer not to roll or spar with people whom I don't trust and where there is no mutual respect. That's not training -- that's a fight. There is definitely a place for fighting too, but let's not confuse the two.

I guess it's different for people who mostly do solo practice and non-agonistic drills.
So how does all of that relate to your internal-strength skills? Dantien/hara usage? And so on? The question in the topic is in relation to "What paths lead to internal power?" In relation to Ueshiba and Takeda, would "plays well with other children" have been a known factor in their I.S. development?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:06 PM   #121
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
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Dan:

I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.

Marc Abrams
Hi Mark
Got it, though the expanded explanation helps to clarify, Hey, it was late and it sort of fit in with a discussion we just had after training; exactly about where these specific types of discussions.....then, like clockwork…Bam!
Hilarious, and once again predicted.
As you can see, from the flow of discussion some treat the idea of "friendship" in a discussion of budo, like a cancer. As if the very idea is impossible to talk about in training with internal power and aiki and it ends up with the idea of "making friends" as anathema to serious budo or the way certain people try to control a dialogue as if this isn't relavent to training. I guess if all you do is stand alone in a room or just have people push on you... it really isn't relavent.

I think you would agree with Tim's comments. He made a very intelligent point. I just got finished training and if I didn't trust the ones I was training with I would not have gone at it at the same speed and with the same risk factor, nor would they have trusted me either. You don't learn or teach others by just going at it …do you?

For the record (and as you know) sparring…actual sparring and using Ip/aiki, involves the same parameters as any other art, gradual, amped up, safety. One of guys had just go back from an MMA gym had his elbow cranked in drill sparring by someone he trusted who screwed him up now for months. So, as Tim pointed out when you actually get beyond solo training and reading some forum and get your ass out to actually use IP/aiki in sparring or showing others how…friends and trust takes on a very real meaning.

Most people who actually are good at budo, already know all of this, but for those who have spent too much time training alone and at a computer, it might help.
Anyway....I'll talk to you tomorrow instead of here.
Dan
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:21 PM   #122
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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As you can see, from the flow of discussion some treat the idea of "friendship" in a discussion of budo, like a cancer. As if the very idea is impossible to talk about in training with internal power and aiki and it ends up with the idea of "making friends" as anathema to serious budo or the way certain people try to control a dialogue as if this isn't relavent to training.
Yeah, but instead of all the simply untrue oblique shots about anyone treating "friendship" as cancer, yada, yada, etc., how about explaining how this complete aside about friendship, budo, wu de, etc., leads to internal power? Let's see if we can keep to the discussion without the usual self-congratulation and putting down of others, for a change. The original topic is about "paths that lead to internal power".

If you want to posit that "friendship" is a bona fide component of I.S. training, fine by me.... I'm just asking for you to support it instead of posturing. If you can't support your thesis, just admit it, but let's keep the thread on topic about "paths that lead to internal power", please.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:22 PM   #123
DH
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

..........................

Last edited by DH : 08-11-2010 at 10:29 PM.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 07:31 AM   #124
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Yeah, but instead of all the simply untrue oblique shots about anyone treating "friendship" as cancer, yada, yada, etc., how about explaining how this complete aside about friendship, budo, wu de, etc., leads to internal power? Let's see if we can keep to the discussion without the usual self-congratulation and putting down of others, for a change. The original topic is about "paths that lead to internal power".

If you want to posit that "friendship" is a bona fide component of I.S. training, fine by me.... I'm just asking for you to support it instead of posturing. If you can't support your thesis, just admit it, but let's keep the thread on topic about "paths that lead to internal power", please.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 07:55 AM   #125
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Re: What paths lead to internal power??

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?
Still more posts that are completely off-topic. Let's just accept the obvious... most people see right away that the importance of "friendship" (or trying to put others down, aggrandize one's own glory, etc.) simply fails as an argument, so that topic gets dropped like a hot potato when questioned. I.e., while it sounds cool to go off on some of these digressions, they don't do a thing to further the main issue of the thread.

Thinking about it, though, reminds me of a discussion I had yesterday which reminded me of a comment one of my earlier teachers made back in the 1980's. I talked about going to a tournament that Summer down in Houston and he asked me why I wasted my time doing those things instead of just practicing. "Very few of those people are serious martial artists, so you are wasting your time", he said. I.e., his opinion was along the lines that if you are trying to develop serious skills, the practice is more important than the social aspects. I tend to agree.

Lorel, why not contribute something substantive about the path to internal power that you're taking and how well it works, why it works, etc.?

Mike Sigman
 

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