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Old 07-22-2010, 10:40 AM   #1
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Ikkajo Control

Is it more effective to control uke by placing one's hand directly on the very center of uke's elbow or slightly above the exact center of the elbow (i.e. towards uke's shoulder)?

Any thoughts would be appreciated - especially those familiar with Yoshinkan technique.

Osu!
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:23 AM   #2
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Re: Ikkajo Control

The effectiveness of the control is going to be based on your technique, not necessarily the location on the arm/elbow. What may work on one person may not work on another.

Many years ago I trained with a gentlemen who had nerve damage from a gun shot wound that left him with no feeling in his entire arm. Made things interesting because 1) he did not feel pain and 2) he did not feel pain so as shite/tori/nage, you had no idea where the breaking point was.

That's my nickles worth ...
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:52 PM   #3
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Thanks for your insights Sensei Miranda.

Am I correct in assuming that the standard instruction for ikkajo in Yoshnkan is placement of the controlling hand just off of the direct center of the elbow towards the shoulder?

...rab
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:45 AM   #4
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I've been taught both on or slightly off, so I can't comment on what's standard. Everyone's arm is different so you need to adjust accordingly. Personally, I teach it just above the elbow, around where the ulnar nerve is. But again, your mileage may vary.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:47 AM   #5
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I'm constantly reminded to have and maintain a strong grip with all the fingers ... not so much where to grab. Seems just proximal of the humerus head at the elbow is a bit of a 'handle' that the fingers settle into nicely. Sometimes it is the little and ring finger and sometimes it is the index and middle finger in that spot.

Seems more important once physical contact is made to right away obtain a solid grip and maintain contact (musubi) and kazushi.

Still working on it tho ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:04 AM   #6
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Robert,

I was agree about maintaining the contact. This is something I point out all the time. Students tend to release the grip once down then try to re-grip. I was taught to not release until your done.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #7
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Hi Rab
Without going into technique there are good reasons to try and control the fixed bone of the humorus instead of the more mobile elbow.
If you happen to run into someone who understands the connections that make "elbow power" a reality, then you will see that there are also very good reasons to avoid the elbow.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:53 PM   #8
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Rab
Without going into technique there are good reasons to try and control the fixed bone of the humorus instead of the more mobile elbow.
If you happen to run into someone who understands the connections that make "elbow power" a reality, then you will see that there are also very good reasons to avoid the elbow.
Cheers
Dan
I figured there was some wisdom there. Thanks for the confirmation Dan!
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:50 PM   #9
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Here is what I think is a good site that shows various applications of Ikkajo. In each video we see difference pertaining to the question. I am sure there is other videos of other well known senseis. And I am sure others who have experienced Ikkajo from these senseis can speak to this as well.

http://wazajournal.com/techniques/ik...ifference.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo
In that link we clearly see they are showing where the hand placement is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU-MpyeVtLg
In this video, am assuming it is the parent jujutsu of Aikido, the hand isn't in the vicinity of the elbow.

I tend to follow the way Christian Tissier sensei does it. Putting the hand just behind the elbow and moving the elbow toward the ear. By placing the hand just behind the elbow, I feel allows for a very effective kazushi result. By far this isn't the only way. And am just saying that is how I do it, and I feel it is good for me. But here again this technique being a jujutsu combat technique has a different purpose and result than that of Aikido.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:25 PM   #10
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Moving the elbow toward the ear was the way I was taught ikkyo as a white belt. Its a useful mnemonic, but bio-mechanically it offers very little advantage. It's all too easy for uke to counter, to bring force back along the same line and nullifying the effect. Imagining the technique as a kesa giri cut has had much better results for me in recent years.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:14 AM   #11
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Moving the elbow toward the ear was the way I was taught ikkyo as a white belt. Its a useful mnemonic, but bio-mechanically it offers very little advantage. It's all too easy for uke to counter, to bring force back along the same line and nullifying the effect. Imagining the technique as a kesa giri cut has had much better results for me in recent years.
That is correct if you're driving force isn't bi-directional. The major points are, 1. misalign the uke's center. 2. shifting uke's weight to his back on his back foot as you break his posture in two stages each in two different directions, or on two different axis, so uke lacks axisymmetry, creating a change in his center of gravity and balance where he is unable to right his proper posture. His body is all messed up.

The counter, any technique can be countered. I am including all martial arts. In Chinese martial arts for example, all moves after the initial are a series of counters from both combatants. Counters are most successful when the other guy doesn't know what is coming, what to expect and understands the waza. And most of all has practiced the counter. Yoseikan Aikido is a wonderful resource for counters to Aikido. To counter Ikkajo, 1. When there is an opening strike the shi. that would be as the shi moves to catch the strike.

In fact to help the Shi do the waza, lock the elbow or have a slight bend in it as you make a committed strike. To do so put all your weight as you strike on your front foot and bend slightly forward at the waist as you strike. Keep a good maai where you're not too close. Your kazushi is already broken,and you're at arms length away when you come down with your strike. It's all easy pickings from there on in. That is how many people tend to do it in practice. Not all, some keep themselves upright and don't extend themselves when they strike. They know their maai and use it well, they keep a lower and even center of gravity, not breaking at the waist and keeping a straight lower back and aligned spine. When the move fowrard they are driving from their hara stepping in such away they don't shift their weight or lose balance. They are careful not to put too how much weight on anyone leg. And the don't over exaggerate the strike. Or perform the strike if the had imaginary armor on. This is just some examples.

The technique originally was a combat technique from feudal Japan seen is many feudal jujutsus in many variations. In one of the videos I posted it is done in seiza, for example. Which indicates a sword isn't in the uke's hand, rather a tonto or along those lines. And possibly the uke is in armor, or strikes without armor in the fashion of being in armor. I think that is why so many Aikido demonstrations closely resemble Aikido's parent of jujutsu.

Thanks for the discussion
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:19 AM   #12
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I don't like speaking about techniques in this matter and detail because things can be so easily misunderstood. But, I do ever once in while and I hope people will bear with me. I hope people will get a sense or feel of what I am talking about.
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Old 07-24-2010, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I want to correct something, "Your kazushi is already broken..." This is incorrect. It should read, "Your balance is already broken." This provides, of course, an advantage to the Shi performing the waza. A very simple example and I am not claiming it as sliced bread.

Last edited by Buck : 07-24-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 07-24-2010, 08:10 PM   #14
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Now the root jujitsu Ikkajo technique catches the uke's arm at the apex of the strike. The type of strike use for Ikkajo, of course, is archaic. They strike styled in the manner of a sword, like I said also due to the limitation of move when wearing armor. The secondary hand is placed behind the elbow on the upper arm stopping the striking arm of the uke, and thus placing the uke's arm in the ideal position (at the apex of the strike). There there is less power coming from the upper arm of the uke making the arm easy to stop. The shi by keeping keeping the the uke's arm straight and kazushi achieved the shi then moves the arm behind the apex point of the uke's arm back into him toward his ear. The the shi moves the arm down into the pinning position as seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU-MpyeVtLg

If done correctly and the uke is unaware of the technique of Ikkajo, the secondary hand placed behind the elbow at the point of contact at the apex of the strike doesn't matter if the arm bends at the elbow. Because the upper arm is firmly in place for kazushi this position is weak for the arm to fight against the secondary hand. And because if the elbow bends, the result is demonstrated by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

In a more modern strike that Ikkajo is used, the uke's arm isn't straight. The arm is bent, and isn't going to be raised straight ,as demonstrated in the first link of this post, to provide an opportunity for being caught at the apex. There are many variations people will throw and you see it with new students, and the strike isn't standardized like that of Japan and how many of us are taught to strike as the uke. Thus, Ikkajo isn't standardize in a modern situation.

Last edited by Buck : 07-24-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 07-25-2010, 03:23 PM   #15
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:53 PM   #16
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae I put in my post. This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74

It is interesting because the elbow of the Uke is going toward his own ear and the arm is bent. The Shi then walks him forward to the ground. There is no leading

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo[/quote]

The shi does take the Uke's arm toward the ear, slightly and not as overlty as before. We can see that about :31 of the vid. And the Shi doesn't more the arm to a more acute angle as others do. The Shi increase the angle of the arm until it is straight and locked as he takes the Uke's arm downward while the Shi pivots around taking Uke to the ground to pin.

Both cases we see the elbow move to the ear. We see this happening in other vids etc. The thing too is the secondary hand is placed behind the elbow on the upper arm of the uke. One opinion is this is for stability, and control. And it is the philosophy of some to place the elbow toward or at the ear as a means of kazushi.

I figure finite nuances are out weighted by the big picture of the general application of the technique. That where exactly the secondary hand is place on the elbow vs. the general area where the hand is placed doesn't have an overwhelming impact on the result of the waza.
FWIW

Last edited by Buck : 07-25-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:57 AM   #17
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I think where you don't want to put the secondary hand is below the elbow on the lower part of arm (ulna and radius). Thereby, having both hands on the uke's lower arm. I have done and see it done as well the secondary hand being placed right at the elbow. This locks the arm straight and leading to keeping the arm locked out requires a rolling over of the arm. Here the Uke's locked arm is pushed to the ear first or it isn't, but in both cases the Uke's arm is turned over as it and moved downward to the pin.

I think for me, it has a bit less control than going beneath the elbow on the upper arm. But some Aikidoka I know, who do it this way, they make it work and are comfortable with this way.

If a person is into preserving a waza it should be preformed accordingly. Meaning it was done exactly in the same manner by a certain person, or marked by a particular method representing a particular style or school, then secondary hand placement is important.

If a person isn't bound by such tradition then precise secondary hand placement isn't as important. What is important in this case is what works for the individual. For example, one person my prefer the secondary hand on the elbow, and another individual may prefer like me to place the secondary hand just below the elbow to ease in moving the elbow toward Uke's ear to get kazushi that is favorable to the results I want from the Uke.

Ikkajo being from old jujitsu we have to assume the parent art of Aikido preforms it is under the assumption that both Shi and Uke are engaging possibly in armor, with or without a weapon, and as trained swordsmen- not working out side their sword world. And with Thus, providing a committed Shomen attack and defending against it within the confines of a swordsmen. All such wazas are approached and treated in this manner without variation. That is, all shomen strikes in the parent art of Aikido are treated the same way. The secondary hand is always placed in the same position and the arm is always dealt with in the same manner. Nothing changes. Flaw here is that this is true for the Uke's attack. That is a shomen strike is done in the same fashion each time and never changes. In this presentation the Uke never attempts to counter.

Whereas Aikido is more flexible and adjusts to different shomen strike variations and counters in general and in comparison. So this provides freedom of secondary hand placement, as well as moving the arm say to the ear vs. not.

Last edited by Buck : 07-26-2010 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:23 AM   #18
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Re: Ikkajo Control

As uke, I find that nage puts pressure anywhere on my elbow joint in ikkyo, I resist and try to bend my elbow. Moreover, I'm often successful and can reverse. If nage's hand is just above my elbow, toward my shoulder, I can't get my center under my shoulder, so it short-circuits my ability to take the technique back.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:25 AM   #19
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Mr. Burgess

I note that 7 out of the 17 responses are from you.

When you're waxing philosophical about non-technical matters I can let your anonymity slide, but when you're expressing preferences for one way of performing a technique over another, invoking apparent personal knowledge about the historical provenance of the technique, and giving out detailed advice to an audience, I would like to know the depth of your experience, please.

How am I to know that you're not just some 4th kyu (like myself) with a propensity to cut and paste other people's knowledge for your own self-aggrandizement?

Thank you in advance.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:31 PM   #20
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Call it one big post I broke up. By giving such a detail post on how I do it and why. That is just me. Other's have other ways that work too.

Being on Aikiweb for a while having and having some experience, i.e. a small number of post 906 indicating I am moderately active here. the rules state we must avoid thread drift. I kindly ask you private message me in regard to your other questions.

Last edited by Buck : 07-26-2010 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:01 PM   #21
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Re: Ikkajo Control

OK, try this question: You claim that where the hand makes contact -- with the elbow or above it -- is a "nuance" that has no "overwhelming result on the impact of the waza." Several other posters have suggested reasons why they consider one option more advantageous. Question -- what specific experiences or considerations lead you to consider this a mere nuance of no real importance, and why should we consider your view to be well-founded instead of poorly founded or unfounded?

Not about bickering, and not about personalities. Just a simple question you should be able to answer -- how do you know?

This question isn't off topic, it's necessary for you to answer in order for us to understand what you've contributed to this technical discussion and the statements you've made evaluating the importance of a particular technical detail in a particular technique.

So, if you choose not to answer it, it would seem you're signalling that people who need this information should ignore your contribution.

David Henderson
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Old 07-26-2010, 07:28 PM   #22
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
OK, try this question: You claim that where the hand makes contact -- with the elbow or above it -- is a "nuance" that has no "overwhelming result on the impact of the waza." Several other posters have suggested reasons why they consider one option more advantageous. Question -- what specific experiences or considerations lead you to consider this a mere nuance of no real importance, and why should we consider your view to be well-founded instead of poorly founded or unfounded?

Not about bickering, and not about personalities. Just a simple question you should be able to answer -- how do you know?

This question isn't off topic, it's necessary for you to answer in order for us to understand what you've contributed to this technical discussion and the statements you've made evaluating the importance of a particular technical detail in a particular technique.

So, if you choose not to answer it, it would seem you're signalling that people who need this information should ignore your contribution.
Great question David my friend, I answered that very good question already. I happened to put the answer in a couple of posts. As that is laborious for all to go back through those posts, and read them, I will put it here in a abridged form.

Basically, what I was saying is as long as the hand is behind the elbow its all good. No need to worry about an exact location. Some people place the secondary hand at mid-arm. And others, like myself, place the secondary hand close to the elbow. And there are some who place the secondary hand on the elbow. When you visit other dojos and other styles, you will see this and other different hand placements. Allot of attention for some is focused on exact secondary hand placement, but that is not where the meat of the waza lies. As I said, if you place both hands on the lower arm then that is a problem. But, it's not a problem if the hand is above the elbow on the upper arm or more up on the upper arm. That is more of a matter of splitting hairs and lends itself more to preservation of technique, or adhering to the way one school teaches it and does it vs. another other.
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:16 PM   #23
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Buck, what style of Aikido does it the way you've so carefully described?

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Old 07-26-2010, 11:30 PM   #24
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Instead of interrogating Philip, how about sharing how "YOU" do it. Be curious to see how different or the same your application is.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:01 AM   #25
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Well, honestly I am having a hard time following what Buck is saying and having trained a bit with people from various styles I was wondering if he was coming from one perspective or another since my experiences have varied given different styles.

In response to the OP I was taught to avoid the elbow for a variety of reasons. One being that it gives them quite an anchor to fight against. This is also in line with Dan up above about it being easier to control structure of the attacker if you worry more about the humerus instead of the more problematic elbow. How you go about that, however, varies quite a bit. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty muscular ikkyo as well as some very soft, flowing ones. But there are huge issues involved with these things as to how the ikkyo is itself done given varied attacks, styles, etc. So my ears perk up when someone posts with such detail and then says something like "that's not where the meat of the waza lies". Usually everything done in a technique like this depends on how everything else is done. So there are usually really good reasons given the overall philosophy of the style, methodology, teachings, etc.

Just looking for context.

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