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Old 07-27-2010, 08:52 AM   #26
DH
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Dealing with the arms should be a reduction of negatives. Why attack and try to control a series of rotational joints when you can avoid them and reduce it to one? Everything else is ancillary.
Speaking of avoidance,
Why do arts for the most part avoid training the body to cancel out ikkajo or Ippon Dori as a control in the first place instead of taking ukemi for it? Isn't it better to teach someone to do it, then also teach them to take ukemi for it, then teach them to cancel it out altogether so it no longer works on them? By the time you reach a certain level, shouldn't you be able to do, and then to stop, all of the waza in Aikido or Daito ryu with aiki? Then decide if you want to give up and catch air for the day?

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:08 AM   #27
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Well, honestly I am having a hard time following what Buck is saying and having trained a bit with people from various styles I was wondering if he was coming from one perspective or another since my experiences have varied given different styles.

Just looking for context.
Keith my friend, I will be happy to explain any concerns you have in understanding what am saying. You just have to ask, I will be more than happy to explain? I am completely open, as I realize am not the easiest person to follow. I try to make it as simple and clear as I can. That is why I provided likes and the post being so long. I don't want to speak in codes, or in abstract terms or special language. I understand that for some such language provides creditability, if it sounds good, he must know what he is taking about. But rather, I want to give nuts and bolts, in plain understandable terms the best I can. And if I am not doing that I will be glad to address any foggy areas. I am not interested in self-promotion etc. I am more concerned in sharing information for the betterment of my learning and others. WIth that said, I am no expert. Just a student.

Last edited by Buck : 07-27-2010 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:11 AM   #28
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkajo Control

My own concern is that Buck put in so much detail about a particular approach to ikkyo, which leads to the impression that there is one approach. Ikkyo is the technique that manifests the greatest amount of variation from shihan to shihan. Even among my own core training group of seven guys, who have been together for years and have gone to more or less the same teachers, none of us do it the same way. I would have been more receptive to an answer that gave a range (Shioda did it this way, Saito this way, Chiba this way) and gave the OP the space to figure out what worked best for him.
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:17 AM   #29
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why do arts for the most part avoid training the body to cancel out ikkajo or Ippon Dori as a control in the first place instead of taking ukemi for it?
Isn't it somethign like this
-if taught at the beginning will just lead to force on force ego strength battle (?)
-first get used to force coming at you...get used to 'riding the force' outside you..(coarse movement). Do not panic. Condition body. a b c
-after some time...go for another level...riding the force inside you. Condition body differently
?
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:40 AM   #30
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Keith my friend, I will be happy to explain any concerns you have in understanding what am saying.
To be honest, Buck, it is simply not worth the trouble. I'd like to think I'm reasonably literate. But for the life of me I can't understand most of what you type. And most of what you type here and elsewhere simply doesn't match up to any on-the-mat experiences I've ever had. It reminds me of speaking with rank beginners who've read all the books, say some of the right words, but who haven't actually done it yet. I could be wrong, of course, but honestly it's at the point where I can't bear seeing another 10 posts that I simply won't be able to follow. And being that I've got some experience under my belt I worry what beginners take from your posts. Maybe they're helpful to them, but I kinda doubt it.

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Old 07-27-2010, 09:56 AM   #31
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I understand it is a hard thing to talk about how to do a waza. I am not expert at that. I could simply say I use physics. I prefer the method of Christian Tessier Sensei to prevent a counter within the structure of Aikido. Out side of that structure would be to kick or punch with a free arm; or something else outside of Aikido's conventions. I feel the focus of secondary arm placement is secondary, where do you place it exactly doesn't have that much impact on the success of the waza. That is my opinion. I feel the focus should on kazushi as this is more of a focus for me.

I understand your position and where you are coming from. I understand also how you feel. I respect that. I will not be offended if we don't share ideas and knowledge anymore. I understand. The best to you and yours, in the spirit of Aikido.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:02 AM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
To be honest, Buck, it is simply not worth the trouble. I'd like to think I'm reasonably literate. But for the life of me I can't understand most of what you type. And most of what you type here and elsewhere simply doesn't match up to any on-the-mat experiences I've ever had. It reminds me of speaking with rank beginners who've read all the books, say some of the right words, but who haven't actually done it yet. I could be wrong, of course, but honestly it's at the point where I can't bear seeing another 10 posts that I simply won't be able to follow. And being that I've got some experience under my belt I worry what beginners take from your posts. Maybe they're helpful to them, but I kinda doubt it.
Keith:

Isn't it interesting how threads involving your new "friend" end up at the same place for most people? You seem to come to the conclusion and concern that many people do. Once again, a reasonable person would simply want to know where your new "friend" is coming from. A simple, PUBLIC history as to real martial arts experience would help clarify a lot. I am sure that your new "friend" is just frothing at the bit to provide all of with that information !

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:20 AM   #33
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I understand the reasons to prefer seeking to control uke above the elbow joint. The way I understand it is in terms of the way my body reacts to some of the situations those posters referenced, and the way my partner's body reacts, as both nage and uke.

For example, the way we do basic gokyo from shomen involves entering and taking uke's balance by interrupting the strike. Uke's balance and structure are disrupted because the strike is interrupted while his/her elbow is "up by the ear" and behind their center and movement. The hand is placed above the elbow as nage enters.

I agree with Keith that a number of deliberate choices went into constructing each of the different versions of ikkyo I've been exposed to. So, when I read a detailed description of a particular version of ikkyo (taking balance by elbow-to-ear) followed by a dismissal of another issue (placement of the second hand), it struck me as a little odd.

I would expect this version of ikkyo to include a preference for placing the second hand above the elbow joint (towards the shoulder) because it feels consistent with the underlying strategy for unbalancing uke, in addition to reasons others have stated.

I felt like since I jumped in, I'd offer this. I will say I am weary of being intentionally misconstrued, protestations of friendship notwithstanding.

David Henderson
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:57 AM   #34
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I felt like since I jumped in, I'd offer this. I will say I am weary of being intentionally misconstrued, protestations of friendship notwithstanding.
Agreed.

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:31 PM   #35
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I ve been seen and tried alot of the different executions and hands placements for ikkyo. The most efficient way for me(omote waza) is to cup the area to the inside of the elbow joint,where all the connective tissue for the bi and triceps are. If I catch the nerve that is there, then that's just gravy. Then its a cut straight down. Hopefully that will knock him off his feet or load all his weight on to his front foot. In which case, I follow the cut with a step to finish off uke's balance.

But standard rules apply, learn through training not through talking. Aikido is to be felt and experienced. You will learn far more from doing it than listening about it.

For a particular point of concern,relating to the authenticity of Buck's relative Aikido experience, he has been around long enough to have valid opinions. Whether or not you can understand them ,well that's entirely up to how he writes his posts and how the reader interrupts them. Now I will say this and try to keep his anonymity intact, there isn't a dojo in the North East USAF that doesn't know Buck.

On a personal note, I am a bit put off by the off topic attacks on Buck.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:48 PM   #36
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
I ve been seen and tried alot of the different executions and hands placements for ikkyo. The most efficient way for me(omote waza) is to cup the area to the inside of the elbow joint,where all the connective tissue for the bi and triceps are. If I catch the nerve that is there, then that's just gravy. Then its a cut straight down. Hopefully that will knock him off his feet or load all his weight on to his front foot. In which case, I follow the cut with a step to finish off uke's balance.

But standard rules apply, learn through training not through talking. Aikido is to be felt and experienced. You will learn far more from doing it than listening about it.

For a particular point of concern,relating to the authenticity of Buck's relative Aikido experience, he has been around long enough to have valid opinions. Whether or not you can understand them ,well that's entirely up to how he writes his posts and how the reader interrupts them. Now I will say this and try to keep his anonymity intact, there isn't a dojo in the North East USAF that doesn't know Buck.

On a personal note, I am a bit put off by the off topic attacks on Buck.
William:

I simply disagree with your premise regarding being around long enough to have a valid opinion. If a person has been practicing 10 years and have done nothing right during those 10 years and do not realize it, is that person's opinion's valid. The same holds true for someone who has been practicing for 1 year. Simply look at the long and storied history of the posts of the person in question. More often than not, people end up telling him that his is not on track, is not making sense, is providing a "shell" of an answer,.......

I frankly do not give a rat's rear-end as to whether or not all of the North East USAF dojos know the poster in question. We have a valid right and valid reasons for asking for some real answers to his experience, training, ..... so that we can better understand his answers and where he is coming from. His lack of overt answers speak a lot louder than people who, for what ever reasons they can muster, seem to come to his "defense." Honesty is the best policy in my book, what about yours?

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:24 PM   #37
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Jun has incorporated a wonderful feature into Aikiweb. It's called The Ignore List.

I recommend using that feature if you find a particular person's posts consistently unhelpful or aggravating in some way. Try it - you'll like it!

Just wish there was an ignore list for all facets of life!
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:27 PM   #38
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ikkajo Control

I'm so not interested in debating this. I've given a fair try at obtaining clarification. Obviously, that isn't going to happen in a meaningful way. I'm done.

David Henderson
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Old 07-27-2010, 04:20 PM   #39
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I'm so not interested in debating this. I've given a fair try at obtaining clarification. Obviously, that isn't going to happen in a meaningful way. I'm done.
Ditto.

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Old 07-27-2010, 05:45 PM   #40
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Okie dokie if we can get back on topic... I'm another vote strongly in favor of the above the elbow, and the variation I'm fondest of is the tegatana to the lower triceps so as the center enters, the cut rolls the upper arm over.

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Old 07-27-2010, 08:42 PM   #41
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Well folks, after some persistent prodding, someone (other than you know who) has taken some of the bait. It seems that Buck is a staff instructor at an established dojo in the USAF. I guess that some persistence from an instructor from a rinky-dink organization (me) has finally allowed us to begin to evaluate where Buck is coming from in his thoughts. I would personally like to thank the irritate person who provided me with this information. Myself and others can now begin to understand Buck in context of his Aikido background.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming .

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:46 AM   #42
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Okie dokie if we can get back on topic... I'm another vote strongly in favor of the above the elbow, and the variation I'm fondest of is the tegatana to the lower triceps so as the center enters, the cut rolls the upper arm over.
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU#t=1m48s

prefer that approach as well. prefer to have my hands free for quick strikes if needed. don't like grabby approach.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:50 AM   #43
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Is it more effective to control uke by placing one's hand directly on the very center of uke's elbow or slightly above the exact center of the elbow (i.e. towards uke's shoulder)?

Any thoughts would be appreciated - especially those familiar with Yoshinkan technique.

Osu!
To address the original post:

Here are some vids by various top Aikidoka sensei including O'Sensei demonstrating Ikkajo along with a parent jujitsu demo where I feel Ikkajo is rooted.

Parent jujitsu Ikkajo: The secondary hand position is above elbow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWrCzu-AjA

A compilation Ikkajo demonstrations includes O'Sensei. All secondary hand position is above elbow. Except approx. 2 instances, one demonstrated at or near to the shoulder. The other seems one on the elbow as demo by Doshu http://wazajournal.com/techniques/ik...ifference.html both exceptions work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTKJw8Gs4s

Takeda Yoshinobu sensei - a recent demo includes Ikkajo which is on the elbow as well. I included mainly because it is a recent vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c5yA...eature=related

In all cases and variations it seems it does not matter where the secondary hand is placed, i.e. on elbow or above. Most demonstrating sensei's , OSensei and the parent jujitsu are above the elbow on the upper arm. Doshu seems to be placing it on the elbow, and I stress seems to. The model is then above the elbow. We see O'sensei did it and taught it above the elbow, we then can suppose that is how he learned it as the jujitsu vid demonstrates how they do it. With all these examples I would say the model show it is done at the elbow, but as we see and practice variations of hand placement work just as well, i.e. on the elbow (IF that is where Doshu is placing his hand, or nearer to the shoulder on the upper arm.

Last edited by Buck : 07-28-2010 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:23 AM   #44
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Thank you for posting those videos.

I believe in the video of Doshu the initial contact with uke's arm is slightly above the elbow joint; as the technique continues, his hand still seemed anchored to the humerous element of the joint.

Perhaps some of this discussion reflects misunderstanding of terms.

David Henderson
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:28 AM   #45
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Nice example, Phi. I like Endo's ikkyo as well. Not that I can do it his way. A visiting Japanese shihan, a 7th dan and a good friend of Endo, said to me, "Only Endo shihan can do his techniques."
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:44 AM   #46
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU#t=1m48s

prefer that approach as well. prefer to have my hands free for quick strikes if needed. don't like grabby approach.
Phil:

That was an excellent clip for a number of reasons:
1) Joint locks should never be focused on restraining one joint or area. They should be a cascade of actions that locks up the hip structure (like Dan mentioned in his post- turning the body into one big joint).

2) Grabbing [contracting muscles]( as opposed to a wrapping [like hands around a handle bar]), causes a reciprocal tension response that allows the person to reconstitute their balance and react effectively to what is being done to them.

3) The hand slightly behind the elbow, along with the hand at the wrist/hand area can cause an effect that I call joint blocking. When the person starts to move a joint, the pressure on that joint (elbow) will reflexively cause the opposite response. If a hand is placed on the elbow, the elbow should hopefully be hyper-extended in order to to allow the person to use the point of contact on the elbow to neutralize the movement.

4) By not fully committing yourself to grabbing, you allow yourself the freedom of movement to be able to do what ever is necessary. in a dynamic, evolving environment.

5) That clip displays a wonderful connection to the uke in which he allows the uke's tensions to result in the technique evolving into it's own effective range of motions.

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:49 AM   #47
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Nice example, Phi. I like Endo's ikkyo as well. Not that I can do it his way. A visiting Japanese shihan, a 7th dan and a good friend of Endo, said to me, "Only Endo shihan can do his techniques."
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:55 AM   #48
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Re: Ikkajo Control

this was to follow my last post, but I see during my compostion of this one people commented, keep in mind this doesn't speak to or respond to those posts- to avoid any confusion

It was mentioned earlier in the thread about counters and making the technique fail. In general it is my opinion and experience all techniques are susceptible being countered and failing. It is important to note that in these vids the technique is being demonstrated with a student, or as instructional demonstration, and they are not a live situation where such critiques are more reasonable.

We all know every technique be it Aikido or all martial arts can be countered or forced to fail.(,i.e. the most apparent is uke to move off the line into the Shi and strike with the other hand, out muscle the shi or something. Basically, point of that is, counter's don't have to be complex. The most effective and quickly learned are the simple ones as described . If we spend allot of time training Ikkajo we see those flaws in the waza and we work to adjust or compensate for counters and failures to gain success. It is a part of the learning process, we fall down until we get up. And no one isn't subject being countered or stopping the waza. We are humans and not gods. The key then in my opinion (allways is my opinion) is to feel at contact through the uke's body if you have control of uke's balance, if there is connection, and if uke is able or going to counter and respond dealing with that all within the scope of Ikkajo. That takes allot of practice and experience to do.

The point being that secondary hand (in terms of control) should, imo, be telling us allot of information in our execution of Ikkajo. Thus, secondary hand placement imo has a twofold process. One, a mechanical function, and two a sensory function. Placement of the secondary hand behind the elbow applies to the mechanical function of the waza. And, it seems to effective on or above the elbow. Whereas, in terms of the sensory gains they are seemingly applicable to a greater and broader area of the uke's arm. That is something to discuss in greater detail elsewhere and with individual sensei's and shihans, as this was simply an overview.

Last edited by Buck : 07-28-2010 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:01 PM   #49
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Thirdly, (continuing from my second to last post) in short as I don't want to get too detalied and casual in my post writing that leads to the posts being hard to follow. Thanks guys point well taken.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Dealing with the arms should be a reduction of negatives. Why attack and try to control a series of rotational joints when you can avoid them and reduce it to one? Everything else is ancillary.
Dan kindly points out something I am sure many of us maybe thinking about or have experienced. Ippon Dori, we can assume it was designed for and applied to a shomen sword cut (don't know the Japanese term for the cut so am faking it). That means both hands of opponent are on the hilt. The defender employs Ippon Dori as in the vid which keeps the attacker's arm straight. Verses employing a bend of the arm at the elbow as seen in several vids. Dan mentions it is best to deal with one joint and not two. Though the reason for Ippon Dori as I see it in the vids there is no bending of the elbow because the opponent having a sword in their hand cut inflict a wound. WIth this in mind, it make sense to deal with "one joint." Keep the opponent's arm straight controlling the weapon better. If you do Ippon Dori with a bokken you will see what I mean that keeping the arm straight is important not to being cut. Which seems to me the primary reason for keeping the arm straight. At the time when Aikido was being developed people where not carrying swords. And due to other aforementioned points in my previous posts armor wasn't be worn any more either. Rather modern applications lends to allowing the arm being bent. I think the arm being straight or bent has no significant bearing on waza performance. Rather it has bearing to historical purposes.

Point being both ways work I am not sure if one has an advantage mechanically over the other. If faced with a sword or such is in the hand of the opponent to avoid being cut. I would think keeping the arm straight (dealing with one joint) is he natural adaptation to control and disarm the weapon. If you try Ikkajo with a bokken or simulated armor restricting movements you may see what I mean. I am sure many already know this and have done this. I am not pointing out something new. But to show that I too through practice became aware of this.

I want to make it clear I am discussing a point Dan brought up, which I felt made sense and explored why it made sense.

Last edited by Buck : 07-28-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:25 PM   #50
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Re: Ikkajo Control

Correction: But to show that I too like many Aikidoka, through the practice of Aikido, became aware of this.
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