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Old 07-18-2010, 01:46 AM   #76
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I like both sets of language. I think it's a matter of taste. I've never read Erick as saying one way of describing things is necessarily better than another, except as a matter of personal taste in learning style.

I'm guessing he's saying: useful is as useful does. Personally, I think language is purely supplemental. The act of learning internals (I presume) is purely physical. However, finding a set of language you feel comfortable with can add new ways of applying the attention to the practice. My hunch is the language sets used are almost completely arbitrary when it comes to actually learning how to perform, which makes them interchangeable based on personal taste. These conversations have always seemed pretty straight forward to me: Erick comments on what he believes; people talk about how he's demonstrated ignorance. And maybe they're right, but I never see any corrections about what he's said that's incorrect. I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe Erick doesn't have a clue about how to do IP/IS/aiki...do/whatever, I have no position to know, but on a forum of words such as this, I'd just like to see the words themselves corrected. As I see it, unless I'm planning on visiting him, his physical ability is almost meaningless. To pull out another tired analagy: if I want to talk about flight, but cannot fly, I'm entitled to do that. I'm allowed to tell folks, yes, i know something about flight, even if I've never dropped flaps and gone stick and rudder.
I've never seen Erick say he's an amazing teacher or student of aikido.
I still do not understand the infatuation so many folks seem to have with disliking Ericks posts.
I enjoy them.
Maybe folks should just get over it?
My two bits...another time 'round.
Take care, folks,
Matt
Language is not 'purely supplemental', it can point to a reality that can only be understood on a phenomenological level, but it can also mislead one to an undesired, disadvantageous point that will make one go far away from the point where one wants to be (in this case internal skill). I personally don't see how anyone can read what Erick writes and come off enlightened (in internal skill) because most of the time, I just ignore what he writes. Although, I can understand the concerns that people might have that a guy like Erick is pretending to be an authority on internal skill (using all his scientific flim flam).

On another point, if language sets are arbitrary and 'interchangeable', then one who has 'knowledge', should be able to switch from technical (supposing he has knowledge of technical categories) to simple. Erick has failed to do that. Instead, he comes in with his technical and complicated jargon and expects those who are not as well-versed in scientific categories to see that he has knowledge about this? He expects us to see that this will help us? And finally, he expect us to 'correct' him when the whole lot of us are just 'simple'--not in the stupid sense--martial artists that don't care a lick for fancy words and scientific wizardry? There is a reason why we resort to simple language sets--to help each other understand some phenomenal reality. Does Erick want to get published in a science journal or something? Good luck to him, because he's not getting recognized at all by some of us here. He's not in the conversation at all.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 07-18-2010, 08:38 AM   #77
David Orange
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm guessing he's saying: useful is as useful does. Personally, I think language is purely supplemental. The act of learning internals (I presume) is purely physical. However, finding a set of language you feel comfortable with can add new ways of applying the attention to the practice. My hunch is the language sets used are almost completely arbitrary when it comes to actually learning how to perform, which makes them interchangeable based on personal taste.
Matt, that's all assuming that the language points to something that's actually effective.

Imagine me going onto a computer hackers' forum and telling all the old-timers how to improve their hacking when I can barely string a little html together. I'd be laughed at until I quit the board.

The first way I got into this discussion was when Mike Sigman told Rob John "David Orange doesn't have a clue."

It made me mad as heck, but as I tried to work a way around Mike and Rob, I very gradually learned that they were talking about an entire level of martial arts that was present throughout the asian world but which I had entirely missed in over 30 years of training, reading and pursuit of knowledge, including five years in Japan with an early uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. Mike, Rob and Dan were talking about a huge level of knowledge and work and I literally didn't have a clue that that level even existed.

I didn't like that, of course, but when I got that clue, it was like finding out that the house I'd been living in actually has a basement, fully outfitted with other bedrooms, bathrooms and a kitchen that I never knew were there. It made my life and martial arts better.

Of course, I did know that there were "internal" martial arts and methods and I thought I was developing them because I'd trained in tai chi for a long time and I'd done lots of baguazhang and even learned some basics of xing yi chuan, along with the traditional explanations of accumulating and channeling "chi." I'd also had some strange experiences of moving people very powerfully while feeling I'd really done nothing at all: but I couldn't explain how that had happened and I couldn't replicate it at will. That's the difference between having an idea of something and having actual skill in it. My comments on those subjects at that time might have "helped" some people, but compared to what they could have learned from Mike, Rob or Dan, my "help" wouldn't have shown up on the scale.

So the real point is whether someone has the skill or not. If they don't, then listening to their explanations is really a waste of time. And if they lack that skill and their explanations are also convoluted and rely on scientific extrapolations to replace actual skill, they can do more harm than good for people who believe that science can explain anything. Maybe it can, but not if you don't really understand the subject and are just positing some scientific ideas as if internal skills were a sort of unknowable "dark matter" that no one knows about, so you can say anything at all about it and it's just as good as anything anyone else has to say. It's not, and it just adds noise to obscure the real information on the thread.

In Erick's case, people who have shown repeatedly that they have internal skills on a very high level have repeatedly told Erick that his "explanations" don't make any sense to them and do not account for or lead to internal skills.

The old phrase "put up or shut up" pretty well describes the situation. If Erick's tedious explanations have any meaning at all, he should be able to demonstrate high level skills. Then we might all say "Hmmm. Maybe I should read Erick's posts more carefully."

As Dan often says, if Erick had anything like those skills, he would be known for that unusual power without having to "show it off." It would be remarkable to everyone who met him and trained with him and they would remark on "this guy, Erick Mead" whom they had met..

Since Erick has not become known for unusual martial arts power, it leads people to think he doesn't have it and that his explanations are meaningless. And this leads to the idea that he doesn't have a clue--that he has never even felt the kind of power being discussed.

As it is, it seems that he really doesn't understand the subject of discussion. But when people encourage him to get out and feel the power of people like Mike, Dan and Rob, he won't do it. Instead, he claims that Dan, for one, has some kind of bad reputation for hurting people or something. But like Dan's unusual power, a tendency to hurt people would quickly become generally known and I've never heard of that from anyone except Erick....so....I have to conclude....that Erick needs to get a clue.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 07-18-2010, 09:15 AM   #78
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Darn, this thread started out so well.
 
Old 07-18-2010, 09:30 AM   #79
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Speaking of "can do"....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David
Photo's like that remind me of work. Everybody working hard, going in different directions, while it would appear they are all trying to accomplish the same goal. Not to say that the gentlemen sitting in seiza couldn't hold his position against a concerted effort. It just doesn't look like that's what's happening. I have rarely seen a group of people able to focus their collective forces (mental & physical) into one point. In other words; I'm not sure if a line of people pushing on someone in slightly different directions, with slightly different intents, is any more powerful than one person. On the other hand, resisting a line up of Dan's students pushing; now that might be a test. Hope to have the honor someday.
And this is probably 2 posts too many for me.
Bowing out,
Ricky
 
Old 07-18-2010, 12:08 PM   #80
David Orange
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Re: Speaking of "can do"....

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Photo's like that remind me of work. Everybody working hard, going in different directions, while it would appear they are all trying to accomplish the same goal. Not to say that the gentlemen sitting in seiza couldn't hold his position against a concerted effort...
Ron says it's ki aikido, so that would be one of the ki tests coming down from Tohei. He did say that having multiple people pushing doesn't add as much as you might think.

I think having multiple people pushing from different angles would be a lot harder to deal with.

Not criticizing their method, just saying....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 07-18-2010, 12:09 PM   #81
David Orange
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Darn, this thread started out so well.
Yeah. We need to get it back where it should be: on JAMES HUANG!!

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 07-18-2010, 02:18 PM   #82
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The first way I got into this discussion was when Mike Sigman told Rob John "David Orange doesn't have a clue."

It made me mad as heck, but as I tried to work a way around Mike and Rob, I very gradually learned that they were talking about an entire level of martial arts that was present throughout the asian world but which I had entirely missed in over 30 years of training, reading and pursuit of knowledge, including five years in Japan with an early uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. Mike, Rob and Dan were talking about a huge level of knowledge and work and I literally didn't have a clue that that level even existed.
OK, it sounds like you owe me because I inspired you. If I had to guess, Mike Sigman didn't just say "David Orange doesn't have a clue".... David Orange probably contributed a few telling remarks before I would say something like that out of the blue.
Quote:

I didn't like that, of course, but when I got that clue, it was like finding out that the house I'd been living in actually has a basement, fully outfitted with other bedrooms, bathrooms and a kitchen that I never knew were there. It made my life and martial arts better.

Of course, I did know that there were "internal" martial arts and methods and I thought I was developing them because I'd trained in tai chi for a long time and I'd done lots of baguazhang and even learned some basics of xing yi chuan, along with the traditional explanations of accumulating and channeling "chi." I'd also had some strange experiences of moving people very powerfully while feeling I'd really done nothing at all: but I couldn't explain how that had happened and I couldn't replicate it at will. That's the difference between having an idea of something and having actual skill in it. My comments on those subjects at that time might have "helped" some people, but compared to what they could have learned from Mike, Rob or Dan, my "help" wouldn't have shown up on the scale.

So the real point is whether someone has the skill or not. If they don't, then listening to their explanations is really a waste of time. And if they lack that skill and their explanations are also convoluted and rely on scientific extrapolations to replace actual skill, they can do more harm than good for people who believe that science can explain anything. Maybe it can, but not if you don't really understand the subject and are just positing some scientific ideas as if internal skills were a sort of unknowable "dark matter" that no one knows about, so you can say anything at all about it and it's just as good as anything anyone else has to say. It's not, and it just adds noise to obscure the real information on the thread.

In Erick's case, people who have shown repeatedly that they have internal skills on a very high level have repeatedly told Erick that his "explanations" don't make any sense to them and do not account for or lead to internal skills.
Frankly, I don't know of *anyone* who has "a very high level" of internal skills who has said anything to Erick on this forum. At the best you've seen a few people with some moderate skills make some remarks because I don't know anyone who posts on this forum that has very high level skills. Rather than personally denigrate anyone, maybe it's best to understand that there are simply levels of understanding and gradations of skills. In my personal opinion Erick doesn't really have a grasp on these skills... yet. As you yourself now can recognize, David, some people give away what they know/don't-know by what they post. People with better skills can often spot easily what the person below them in skills is totally unaware what he doesn't know.... but this will continue to happen as someone progresses. I can spot a lot of things in what people say that they themselves are unaware is a big giveaway... but in that same sense, I'm smart enough to know that my skill level is just as obvious to, say, Chen Xiaowang or many others. It's a continuum of skills, not a situation of "Joe Blow *KNOWS* this stuff at a very high level, while Tommy Smith doesn't have a clue".

I'd say a couple of things about these skills that might be helpful:

The best thing to learn to do well before anything else is some of Tohei's simple "ki tests". If you can't do those things well, you can't do anything else well, no matter how many "secrets" you think you know.

If you really understand this stuff you can explain it simply. If you can't explain it simply and you don't realize how obvious your ability to make 'simple explanations' spotlights your real skill level, then you're kidding yourself about what you know. Conversely, if you can't understand some simple model like "groundpath", "downpath", "store-and-release", "move from the dantien", etc., then you have a way to go... these kinds of very simple models have always gotten a quick nod of understanding by real experts when they see them illustrated (even though, of course, these models are not complete, by any means).

What Erick does or doesn't know isn't worth getting into personal putdowns about. People who live in glass houses, in terms of these skills, should not throw stones... or at least not big stones.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 07-18-2010, 05:12 PM   #83
Erick Mead
 
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

David -- I don't get out, because --- I just don't get out. I am not known for what you are seeking because I have no particular desire to be known for anything. I just genuinely wish to place things within a certain context -- and have no desire to force anyone else into that context who does not want to use it. No one has yet pointed to anything I have observed mechanically that is refuted in practice -- save only Chi'imed, who kindly pointed out a math error in an early exploration when scaling a power law, but I acknowledge that to him -- and even that correction only tempered the degree -- it did not refute the basic point.

As to "meeting anyone" I tried to get someone well-reputed in all respects down here, the first effort conflicted in dates and then for the second he reluctantly withdrew because his shihan ceased authorizing outside seminars. Having been volunteered certain information over two years ago on the reputation of a chief advocate which concerns me -- I am quite put off by the whole tone of similar discussion by those who have become devotees and in the same manner. FWIW the same person who let me know of that concern two years ago -- also had a very high opinion of the guy who we tried to bring down. PM if you want what I was given and then follow up on your own, if you wish,and you be your own judge ... Others who have done so, have volunteered to me their own concerns with the adoption of this tone, and what it may suggest about the whole enterprise... which is not the IT/IS issue itself, but merely of a certain approach to it.

I would give anyone the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding that report- as I have tried to answer Lorel, and you, as squarely as I can. However, we are past doubts on the score of confirming my concern in other quarters. There is no simple conceptual criticism or offering concrete evidence against my observations, nor even mere laissez faire disregard of a divergent opinion. The confirmation lies in the tone of attack and knee-jerk dismissal, the exploitation of technical misunderstanding, that you now repeat (in stark change from your earlier manner, I note), all of which shows the intolerance of the echo chamber. I am not at all encouraged to play. And that, as you indicate, taints the acceptance of any bona fides, in every direction, for the entire discussion.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 07-18-2010 at 05:16 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 07-18-2010, 06:43 PM   #84
gregstec
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Re: Speaking of "can do"....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David
Don't know who is than picture - but FWIW, I have seen as well as been involved in demos like that pictured - all it takes next after establishing the connection of all involved is a little twitch of your center, and those ukes will go flying, with the last in line moving the most

Greg
 
Old 07-18-2010, 09:25 PM   #85
Gary David
 
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Re: Speaking of "can do"....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Ron says it's ki aikido, so that would be one of the ki tests coming down from Tohei. He did say that having multiple people pushing doesn't add as much as you might think.

I think having multiple people pushing from different angles would be a lot harder to deal with.

Not criticizing their method, just saying....

David
David
We used to do this years ago......it is the old "......equal but opposite......." I spend as much effort holding back the one pushing on my back as I did pushing on the sitting down person..... the person sitting down got little more than what I was applying. Today I would likely frame up and run the down (ground) path back through the chain and bounce the seated person......

Last edited by Gary David : 07-18-2010 at 09:37 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2010, 10:52 PM   #86
Yamazaru
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

I hope Eric's sources implying that Dan is "not safe" weren't any fellow Floridians. That would be completely ridiculous. I was present for all of Dan's Florida visit and he sure had a heaping helping of "martial virtue"- he obviously has heavy duty internals and can deliver massive power but had great control as well. I saw him free play with several folks and he kept it just at the level they were comfortable with while still dominating (and used it as a teaching method, not a pissing match). Keep in mind he was working with people whose skill level ranged from novice to shihan in a few different arts.

That's my take but everyone else I know that worked with him there has agreed. Scary skills, great control and a gracious guy...almost makes up for his penchant for wearing sheer, translucent pants

Rob MacPherson
 
Old 07-19-2010, 04:22 AM   #87
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

I would give anyone the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding that report- as I have tried to answer Lorel, and you, as squarely as I can. However, we are past doubts on the score of confirming my concern in other quarters. There is no simple conceptual criticism or offering concrete evidence against my observations, nor even mere laissez faire disregard of a divergent opinion. The confirmation lies in the tone of attack and knee-jerk dismissal, the exploitation of technical misunderstanding, that you now repeat (in stark change from your earlier manner, I note), all of which shows the intolerance of the echo chamber. I am not at all encouraged to play. And that, as you indicate, taints the acceptance of any bona fides, in every direction, for the entire discussion.
Erick, you still don't get it.

I can speak for myself, but I am a bunkei dolt that can't correct you at all because I do not have knowledge of the categories you use. It is unfair and quite passive-aggressive for you to say that we're attacking you (knee-jerk dismissal? nice one there) or being intolerant when you probably know a lot of us do not possess the same technical vocabulary/knowledge that you possess. Knowing all this, why do you fault us for failing to meet your expectations?

Try to observe the conversations we have here. Do we talk about 'shears' and 'torsional angular vibrations" and all that? No. We talk like normal people, using 'language sets'--to the best of our expressive abilities--that the majority of us can understand. Words like 'pressure' or even anatomical expressions like "tilting the pelvis" are much more understandable than "torsional angular vibrational inertia membrane". It's like we're having a tea, talking about basketball, and an alien comes down and is all "hey I know that!" and then starts to describe what we're talking about in a language we're not familiar with. Come down to earth, Erick, and maybe we can have a conversation, and also maybe we can 'correct' your observations--if that is really what your intention is. Does it hurt to speak simply to some of us simpletons?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 04:44 AM   #88
DH
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
It's like we're having a tea, talking about basketball, and an alien comes down and is all "hey I know that!" and then starts to describe what we're talking about in a language we're not familiar with. Come down to earth, Erick, and maybe we can have a conversation, and also maybe we can 'correct' your observations--if that is really what your intention is. Does it hurt to speak simply to some of us simpletons?
Hello Lorel
That is not a good argument, bud.
Eric hides behind a language most do not understand for the exact reason you name in the above. He desperately wants to be seen as part of those who have the skills, or he wouldn't continue to interrupt the discussions. That much has been made obvious. He wants people to believe he owns the skills and can use them.
"hey I know that!" and then lead people to believe he can I]"describe what we're talking about"[/i]

I circumvented all of the smoke screen, went through the sham and asked to meet and see it or at least have him meet others who have met us. Seemed simple to me. The result was that I got personally attacked.

The Eric equation isn't personal, It is a discussion of skills and knowledge. It can be resolved with no debates, no "personalities" and "character assasinations" used as a defense, no "language gap," and no misunderstandings of engineering and science. And all by the same standards the Aikiweb readership used on me and everyone else.
All settled instantly with one word....
  • "Show!"
He never will...because he can't. He has no real part in the dialogue because he in fact
1. "Does not know this"
And he in fact cannot
2. "describe what we're talking about" because of # 1!

That is the key to the discussion. Not personalities or character. Where not running for office.
It's no big deal really. The vast majority of MAers (As David pointed out in his thirty years) in fact didn't even know this stuff even existed.
I wish Eric well in his pursuits. But I think the next step for him is obvious. Where is the harm? Everyone is having fun, learning and sharing and making friends. Goodness gracious, it's not like you're defending your dissertation or getting a tooth pulled. It's meeting up with Martial Artists, and not even in a martial setting...gees!
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-19-2010 at 04:53 AM.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 07:16 AM   #89
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Who knows Dan, maybe Erick can speak simply to us and then we can judge from there if he is conversant. Since he is not open to meeting you, I guess what we can do here is to challenge him to speak simply. You up for the challenge Erick? Can you explain your 'knowledge' simply to us?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 08:59 AM   #90
David Orange
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, it sounds like you owe me because I inspired you.
Not only that, but some of your guys in Atlanta have shown me things that informed further understandings, so I can't deny the debt to Mike Sigman.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If I had to guess, Mike Sigman didn't just say "David Orange doesn't have a clue".... David Orange probably contributed a few telling remarks before I would say something like that out of the blue.
Just the old standard invisible ki flowing comments....followed by derision of mechanically produced "ki".

I mean, I knew that the subject of "internal power" existed, and I had felt it and expressed some little bit by accident, but you guys were talking about controlled skill, how to attain it and how to apply it at will, which came down from abstractions to concrete (...mobile, powerful, grounded, yin yang balanced, dual-spiral supporting center that has been enriched in aiki power by several decades of hard training will powerfully and effortlessly cause a powerful kuzushi on anyone that touches you...) methods...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...As you yourself now can recognize, David, some people give away what they know/don't-know by what they post. People with better skills can often spot easily what the person below them in skills is totally unaware what he doesn't know.... but this will continue to happen as someone progresses. I can spot a lot of things in what people say that they themselves are unaware is a big giveaway... but in that same sense, I'm smart enough to know that my skill level is just as obvious to, say, Chen Xiaowang or many others.
No doubt here.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What Erick does or doesn't know isn't worth getting into personal putdowns about. People who live in glass houses, in terms of these skills, should not throw stones... or at least not big stones.
Agreed. I certainly don't have any skills at all, at this point. I've just glimpsed some basic concepts and don't have actual control of any of them enough to begin calling them "skills".

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 07-19-2010, 09:24 AM   #91
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Not only that, but some of your guys in Atlanta have shown me things that informed further understandings, so I can't deny the debt to Mike Sigman.
Hey, thank those guys in Atlanta, not me. None of them told me about it.
Quote:
(...mobile, powerful, grounded, yin yang balanced, dual-spiral supporting center that has been enriched in aiki power by several decades of hard training will powerfully and effortlessly cause a powerful kuzushi on anyone that touches you...)
"Dual-spiral supporting center"? Not terms I've ever used.

Mike
 
Old 07-19-2010, 09:44 AM   #92
David Orange
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hey, thank those guys in Atlanta, not me. None of them told me about it.

"Dual-spiral supporting center"? Not terms I've ever used.
A tip of the hat to the emininent Mr. Huang!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 07-19-2010, 09:52 AM   #93
akiy
 
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Re: some exercises for getting the structure going and why they're done

Thread closed due to it turning into a personal discussion.

-- Jun

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