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Old 07-05-2010, 05:45 AM   #26
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

To tell you the truth, i don't really know whether my experiences are relevant, cos, basically, I'm an extremophile, I think! I've survived in an extreme environment and I think I could survive in another.

Just a thought.
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:08 AM   #27
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
Thanks, randy.

You can defuse situations by not reacting, too. I was once picked up and thrown by someone, and I just carried on walking, without showing any fear or reaction.

The whole bar looked at me in awe! You can get some places in this world where you are treated with utter contempt if you don't fight, but if you do, you are fighting at least three of them, if not a hundred and the police and courts are sometimes on their side. If you don't take a kicking, you are stupid and not of this Earth, and if you do, you are contemptible and laughable.

The answer is just to look capable. And there. And not adding to the situation. And, as you said, try to see the man in all men, and give them respect,despite their lack of manners, which I admit sometimes can't do with some, sometimes.

You can get some situations, with very devious people, where they make your life unbearable, provoke you into starting something, then beat you up, two of them at once, and make you look like the bad guy and the antagonist. And the police laugh at you. That cuts very deep. The answer is to be there and be capable and keep going.

Thanks.
Seems to me that you lack common sense and cannot judge a situation.Why put your self in such a position? Surely the first thing anybody with a degree of skill does is weigh up /sense the environment that is there and if the vibes are not good , you exit said environment.That way you dont risk getting into a scenario which you might find dangerous.Remember the saying retreat is not defeat,
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:42 AM   #28
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

That may be, but someone else here has said that you should try to mix with all people!

I don't think any of you would get EXACTLY the same problems, cos you would all look physically capable. And one of the people I altercated with lived beneath me, and was difficult to get away from.

What, for example would you do if you ended up in prison? Would you abandon Aikido and say it is not applicable? Or only use it once or twice and say that is good enough? I think Ueshiba could have survived a stretch and taught people a thing or two.

I think if he visited some of the places I have been, he would do a good, convincing demo, that would impress all, but I think he would only stay in the bar for a half!
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:04 AM   #29
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Or, maybe the bar would lose a few patrons.

Just trying to share experience!

Last edited by akiy : 08-31-2010 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:35 AM   #30
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

And i suppose the answer is, to take my own advice, is that life is not always like an Aikido demonstration. Sometimes, you bump into people.

No disharmony intended!
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:11 AM   #31
C. David Henderson
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
That may be, but someone else here has said that you should try to mix with all people!
Not quite.

I think the point is not to restrict yourself simply to people who are just like you or who practice a particular martial art with the unwarranted assumption that they are the good folks and the others aren't to be trusted.

That doesn't mean "hang out even with people you know or percieve to be (dangerous, dishonest, trouble...)" based on naive idealism. There are lots of peaceful, honest people out there and most of them don't practice aikido or hang around rough bars showing techniques.

It sounds like you've been in some dicey situations in that regard. If that's the kind of place you where you find yourself spending time, and can't or don't want to make a different choice, there are people who teach how to spot, avoid, and try to manage those kinds of situations. You might find what they have to say useful.

Regards

David Henderson
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:51 AM   #32
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
The reason I say this, is cos in John Stevens biography, it said that Uheiba didn't turn up to some demonstrations, if the vibe didn't feel right.

OK, meet and talk to all people. But, in my experience, there are some, whom, charming as they are, aren't good to stay around for a long while. You end up wearing your batteries down. I've been in positions where, out of stubborness, and a desire to prove how tough I am, I've interacted with people, who really, shouldn't have many friends at all, but do, cos they are really experienced con men.

YOU might meet them, and they may say, 'Hey, you've really impressed me with that move! Can you show me it again?' And, they'll want to see it again and again and again, until you trip up.

Just show them the once. Then, say goodbye.
I think I see what you're saying now. I think the problem I had with your earlier remarks was that they seemed a little over-simplified. I wouldn't describe it as "maximize/minimize" unless you include something to show that the relationships should occassionally reverse too. I once knew a guy who was a lot like how you described above. He definately wore my batteries down...and being that I was pretty depressed at the time it probably wasn't the healthiest friendship. I remember once we were watching TV and he decided he was going to start hitting me in the ribs. They weren't real hard, but they were annoying so naturally i put my arm up and deflected them a bit. The angle I used started to cause some friction which became uncomfortable for him because he said, "oh you're trying to make it sting." All I did was put my arm up, he provided most of the impact (and the intent to sting), and as soon as it became unpleasant for him he lost interest.
There are a lot of stories like this because I lived with the guy for 2 years. I've often thought about what I could have done to "break through the barrier" because while I think the guy was a pretty well-accomplished A-hole, he was also very cool in many other ways. The only answer I've come up with so far is that I should have been more engaged. As soon as he would act up I would usually disengage, which ironically became something of a target for him.
Now, I agree with you that sometimes you SHOULD disengage from a "bad" situation/person. Rather than hang around very disengaged, I probably should have either left altogether or found a way to directly deal with the unhealthy relationship our friendship had formed.
So, in all things we should probably find balance. It's like working out: you place strain on yourself to promote growth and adaptation; it makes you stronger, but only when you don't allow the strain to overwhelm you.
I like the phrase "mutually beneficial relationship" because it gives me a starting point for all my interpersonal interactions. How do we break through the interpersonal barriers we find around us? Finding common ground is the only answer I have so far, and that means taking care of yourself along with the other. If one of those agents isn't being taken care of, it's not a mutually beneficial relationship.
The intuition you describe is a bit more difficult to pin down, but I think it's just as important to work on. If you get a bad vibe, listen to it, but where possible, still question it so you can learn from it. Developing intuition can be tough: I know folks who shy away from all kinds of things just because they inject their own "bad" into the vibe.
Ok, I'm off to put my sick rambling self back to bed!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:23 PM   #33
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

I had an experience once where a woman looked at me up and down. Talk about an attitude----wow!!!! I went over to her and asked her what her problem was. Long story short--we've been happily married now for 5 years. While I am the sensei on the mat, she's the "sensei" in the home!!!!
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:58 PM   #34
lbb
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
That may be, but someone else here has said that you should try to mix with all people!
I don't try to mix with all people. People with certain kinds of mental disturbances, for instance, I stay away from. Don't ask me for a clinical definition because I don't have one -- I just know that when my "bad crazy" radar pings, I listen and take myself elsewhere. People who behave like oafs, likewise, I tend to stay away from, particularly if they combine oafishness with belligerence, bad drinking behavior or both.

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
What, for example would you do if you ended up in prison?
I'd deal. I have no idea whether aikido would be part of that or not. I do know that making statements about what you'd do in a situation that's really far removed from your current reality is about the same as writing a fantasy novel.

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
I think if he visited some of the places I have been, he would do a good, convincing demo, that would impress all, but I think he would only stay in the bar for a half!
Can't help you there. I'm not a "What would Ueshiba do?" fundamentalist.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:45 PM   #35
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

I think I was the one who suggested the benefit of diversity. What I didn't suggest, and I don't think I implied, that one should mix with all people, all the time. There is a time and place for all things. I'm not about to attend a KKK rally - just isn't going to happen. Even though their viewpoint might be interesting, some things aren't worth the price of admission.

I am both interested and curious about other people, their culture and their viewpoints. If I only associated with those very much like me, life would just be boring. Some folks are different and they are dangerous so a little common sense goes a long way. I tend to stay away from dangerous people and situations - I made my living for many, many years seeking them out and I ain't gonna do it for free today.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:18 AM   #36
Janet Rosen
 
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Sheesh...I get along with all kinds of people, and I can read and de-escalate all kinds of situations....but reading this thread, I think my policy of hanging out in cafes instead of bars is maybe the smartest choice I've made.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:58 AM   #37
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Even mild mannered Clark Kent sometimes ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time! Something happens to me about once every five years, and now, I have found, showing lack of fear works a lot. Sometimes, not going to certain places does the trick and sometimes,staking your place, refusing to clear off, just cos they don't like the look of you, works too. If you're spat at, move ! Cos that, obviously, is a big warning sign, that things are going to escalate. Some people also, want you drinking just with them, so they can keep an eye on you and make sure you're not making 'friends' elsewhere!

You shouldn't segregate people, though, I think. Segregation leads to arrogance and delusions of superiority and then to failure. Speak to all people, but just be wise and know when the time is up.

Actually, thinking again, I think you wouldn't even notice Ueshiba in a bar! I can do that a bit.
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:14 AM   #38
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

I've visited lots of places and I can read people there, quite well. Most people like me, I'm unobjectionable, but there are some that find it a little difficult to get used to me.

Last edited by akiy : 08-31-2010 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:33 AM   #39
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

No disharmony intended.

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Old 07-07-2010, 03:18 AM   #40
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Having looked at some of Ueshiba's 100 sayings on my PC, he said that you should not concern yourself with the good and bad of others, cos that only lets maliciousness into your heart. Also, you should not judge or compete with others.

I think he just means you should just interact.I think from that, there should be a mutual agreement, based on your instincts, and the other person/people, as to when you should leave and to who you should interact with and you should not segregate, or be aloof nor be too pressing. Just interact.

Common sense really.

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Old 07-07-2010, 06:16 PM   #41
lbb
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

You can't unilaterally create a mutual agreement.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:47 PM   #42
Shannon Frye
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post

Maybe I should just wear a paper bag over my head! Or put a curtain round myself!
Hey, the shower curtain thingy worked for Daniel at the school dance (Karate Kid 1)

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:44 AM   #43
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You can't unilaterally create a mutual agreement.
Of course. Empathy and compassion are required. That's part of buddhism.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:33 AM   #44
lbb
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
Of course. Empathy and compassion are required. That's part of buddhism.
That isn't my point, Carl. A "mutual agreement" means agreement between/among two or more parties. You cannot decide to create a "mutual agreement" all by yourself, no matter how much "empathy and compassion" you have, and no matter what religious tenets you cite. Other people are involved too, and you can only extend understanding, compassion, empathy and all that good stuff for yourself. You cannot do so for others or compel others to do so.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:20 AM   #45
C. David Henderson
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

On the one hand, I heard Carl to suggest that, by cultivating a certain frame of mind (and heart), one may depend on intuition as a guide in interactions with, say, strangers.

(I don't know if that's true, being insufficiently cultivated myself to have experienced it. I'm guessing it may bear some relationship to stories, however, of martial artists like Ueshiba and Takeda reportedly being able to "read" other people.)

Even so, reading people is a lot easier if you have fewer unknowns, or even understandings about the parameters of the relationship. Most times I hear accounts of "verbal aikido," it seems to me the effectiveness of the words depended on a bunch of largely unspoken things about the interaction and relationship.

So, I also can see why mutual understandings of the kind we create in a dojo environment helps us match our expectations to our interactions without access to special perceptive skill.

As to this, I certainly agree with Mary -- takes two to agree.

As for intuition, I think sometimes I put too much store in my own, and others that I mistake my impulses or reactions for insight. Still, whatever complex of mental processes I give that label, I often do depend on it. Much less scary to do so when a tacit agreement exists about what we're all up to.

For that matter, in the "tough bar" scenario, there kind of is a tacit agreement. If you hang out there, you should be prepared for the kind of ... stuff that's likely to happen.

2 cents.

David Henderson
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:32 AM   #46
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You can't unilaterally create a mutual agreement.
hey.... wait a sec....What about that as a functional definition of Aikido?

Unilaterally creating a mutual agreement?

]\)...seriously. thoughts?
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:53 PM   #47
lbb
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
hey.... wait a sec....What about that as a functional definition of Aikido?

Unilaterally creating a mutual agreement?

]\)...seriously. thoughts?
Unless you are humpty-dumptying the meaning of the words "unilaterally" and "mutual", the answer is a categorical no.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:08 PM   #48
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

unilaterally = one side
mutual = both

Unilaterally creating a mutual agreement

one side creates an agreement both buy into. whether or not you want to is a different question. i guess the question is whether an agreement can be 'forced'. i've felt forced to agree in the past. in fact i feel forced to agree now. i guess we can both agree that i was wrong.
wordplay is not a specialty of mine. it was just a thought.
no worries.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:19 PM   #49
C. David Henderson
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Oh no, it's Xeno's paradox deja vu all over again.

The arrow doesn't reach it's target in theory, but seems to have no problem doing so when you actually put it in motion; one person can't unilaterally create an agreement -- unless the other fella changes his position for some reason (like an offer he can't refuse.)

What about aikido is supposed to create such an opening? Does it?

David Henderson
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:05 PM   #50
phitruong
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Re: Aikido - Breaking the barrier

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
unilaterally = one side
mutual = both

Unilaterally creating a mutual agreement
was in a crowded elevator one time and someone had a bad bean day (wasn't me, honest). suffice to say, we all mutually agreed to exit the elevator as soon as it open even if it wasn't our floor to get off.
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