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Old 06-15-2010, 08:11 AM   #1
MM
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Madman With A Gun

From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/43...lott-jr?page=1

Quote:
John Lott Jr wrote:
But surely this was an aberration. Because America has the most guns, multiple-victim public shootings are an American thing, right? No, not at all. Contrary to public perception, Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings. Particularly telling, all the multiple-victim public shootings in Western Europe have occurred in places where civilians are not permitted to carry guns. The same is true in the United States: All the public shootings in which more than three people have been killed have occurred in places where civilians may not legally bring guns.
The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:51 AM   #2
lbb
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all.
I think a more accurate statement would have been, "I don't want to discuss gun control," or "My purpose in starting this discussion is not to discuss gun control." You can't actually "remove" an aspect of the discussion, particularly not after having just inserted a quote that appears to have no purpose whatsoever except to raise the very issue that you claim to not want to discuss.

In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:14 AM   #3
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think a more accurate statement would have been, "I don't want to discuss gun control," or "My purpose in starting this discussion is not to discuss gun control." You can't actually "remove" an aspect of the discussion, particularly not after having just inserted a quote that appears to have no purpose whatsoever except to raise the very issue that you claim to not want to discuss.
Thanks for the reply, Mary. In regards to the above, for me, I stand by my words. If it gets to the point where people want to discuss gun control, I'll bow out and ask Jun to close the thread. For me, it's that simple.

And while the article does address that issue, it also brings up a very important point that people do find themselves in very bad places -- all over the world.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.
I think that's going to be the answer for a lot of people. It's what I call playing the odds. If the odds are rare that you'll ever find yourself in that situation, most people have a lot of other pressing things to concentrate on. A very solid, viable answer. Thanks.

Hopefully, though, there will be posts with other answers.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:34 AM   #4
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Hi Mark,

This was a very interesting article. I typically don't post on the Open Discussion forum, but I felt compelled to do so and share my experience.

Mark said:
"So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event? "


In addition to jujutsu, I also train in Krav Maga and we go through these types of scenarios and stress drills on how to defend oneself against someone with a gun, knife or rifle. Then we do scenarios where people come into a public place with weapons: movie theater, bank, airplane, etc. We also learn how to fire weapons, disarm the attacker, clearing a weapon, and so forth. One thing that is stressed is that if you can run to safety, do it…don't be a hero. If you are in a situation where you have no choice and it's a matter of life and death, do what you have to do. This type of training has helped me a lot about understanding the realities of violent encounters and what can happen in a split second, the adrenaline dump, the chaos involved, hostage situations, innocent people standing around including loved ones, etc.

In addition to this, we learn how to observe people who seem a little suspicious. Not in the paranoid sense, but observing behaviors like: pacing, fidgety hands, darting eyes like they are casing the place, or people "measuring" like counting how many steps to a certain door, etc. However, the nicest person could also be suspect as well, you just never know.

I think the training I receive helps me quite a bit in terms of awareness and how to react. But to be honest, I don't know what I would do when the "stuff" hits the fan. I know how I have reacted in scenarios, but real life is just so unpredictable and brutal. It would be my hope that the training I received would take over. The only precaution or measures I would recommend for anyone is to be aware of how these scenarios start and progress and design scenario training to see how you react in these situations and make them an integral part of your training. This is by no means the silver bullet, but it gives you some training tools and a sense of what could happen and how you can best prepare for these nasty situations. Just my .02 cents.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:45 AM   #5
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.
Hi Mary,

I respect your opinion and I too once shared your viewpoint. I mean what are the odds right? However, my viewpoint was due to the fact that I did not want to admit that I truly wouldn't know what to do and that the training I received did not address those potential realities. Basically, I was scared to admit I wasn't prepared and brushed it off. My training now includes those scenarios because they do and can creep up and when it does, it is a very scary and humbling experience.

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Old 06-15-2010, 10:58 AM   #6
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

This was a very interesting article. I typically don't post on the Open Discussion forum, but I felt compelled to do so and share my experience.

Mark said:
"So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event? "


In addition to jujutsu, I also train in Krav Maga and we go through these types of scenarios and stress drills on how to defend oneself against someone with a gun, knife or rifle. Then we do scenarios
Thanks for the reply. I would imagine that there are various other martial training schools that have similar methods, although it sounds like you have a good one. Anything worthwhile to share (with the emphasis being that this is an Internet forum and this is no replacement for hands on training) from your training? Beyond the good advice of run to safety or cover, that is.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:17 AM   #7
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Re: Madman With A Gun

I take none. extremely rare that I can imagine such conditions that would warrant me to carry a gun or that I can imagine how I might mitigate such an occurrence anyway as a "civil" member of society.

Besides, I really want to live in a world in which I can go about my day to day life and not have to worry about bad guys all the time. I get enough of that at work.

I support people's right to bear arms, it is just not something that I personally feel inclined to do on a daily basis. If things get bad enough then I will, i want that option and choice to be mine.

IMM, the logic that says I should carry a gun to mitigate risk, means that I'd also have to wear a protective helmet all the time since I have had more head injuries from running into tree branches, signs, and falling on ice than I have been attacked by bad guys in America.

I also like the logic that requires hunters to wear blaze orange to protect themselves. That is okay, but if we were really concerned about their lives we should also require them to carry defibulators as each fall more hunters die from cardiac arrest while hunting than from being shot! (sorry can't find the reference right now).

I love statistics and logic!

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Old 06-15-2010, 11:18 AM   #8
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Things that I do anyway,

Aikido has increased my awareness of my surroundings. I pay more attention to where I am, what is going on around me, what is odd or out of place.

I have always played a game of "what if", trying to image responses to emergency situations happening where I happen to be at the time, like if there was a fire what would I do, if there was a tornado where would I go, etc but not to the point of paranoia.

It seems to me that the people who have survived the "Madman With A Gun" situations are the ones who kept moving and did not stand still or try to hide.

David

Last edited by dps : 06-15-2010 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:08 PM   #9
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Thanks for the reply. I would imagine that there are various other martial training schools that have similar methods, although it sounds like you have a good one. Anything worthwhile to share (with the emphasis being that this is an Internet forum and this is no replacement for hands on training) from your training? Beyond the good advice of run to safety or cover, that is.
Hi Mark,

I am sure there are some schools that do some of these things in one way or another. The schools I encountered didn't do a whole lot of scenario type training. Not that they didn't want to, I just don't think it was their main focus, plus a lot of teachers didn't know where to start or have the experience to create scenarios to play with. It's not horribly difficult, but it takes some planning. Here are some things I can share with you:

Adrenaline Dump -- In all drills and scenario testing we push ourselves to the limit and learn how to move through that uncomfortable feeling of being frozen or "turtling up". First we exhaust ourselves to the point of collapse with combative drills, and then we begin the attacks…MANY attacks of all types. The philosophy is that you won't be so alert and fresh all the time so it's better to practice at your worst condition, working past fear and exhaustion. I have witnessed first hand a gentleman in our class that was a high ranking karateka that froze up under an attack. Not that he couldn't defend himself, he just wasn't used to training that particular way and that adrenaline dump locked him up bad.

Multiple attackers -- This is one that woke me up. I was used to the multiple attacker scenarios in Aikido and to me at the time; I thought that was pretty intense. I tried to replicate that same scenario and basically had my ass handed to me. This isn't a fault of Aikido, but of me. There is something to be said about 3 guys in bullet man suits all coming at you that make it a humbling experience. I felt like I was being attacked by robots.lol.

Verbal Escalation/De-escalation -- It's amazing how the verbal banter that goes back and forth before a fight can be scary and crippling. You get that "Oh crap!" feeling. We did drills where the verbal dialogue would increase in intensity (arms flying, cussing, in your face woofing, sometimes a shove to the chest or slap to the face). The key is to learn proper distance (maai) keeping the hands at the ready position…not fists shown, but more non-threatening open hand position and learn what to say to de-escalate the situation quickly.

Environment Awareness -- In the past, I was used to the quiet confines of the dojo. In my Krav Maga training the environment was ever changing. We would use loud music, shouting, turn the lights off, smoke machine, people crowding or running around…all to overload and put stress on the senses and how to navigate and deal with those situations. Sometimes we would train outside, in regular clothes, in alleys, etc. Sometimes we would blind fold each other, tie one or both arms up, just to keep things interesting. I laughed at first of the blindfold thing like it was some Jean Claude Van Damme training, but it was mentioned that women sometimes are tied up and blindfolded and thrown into trunks of cars to be taken to a secluded are to be either raped or murdered or both. That put it all in perspective for me.

I hope that helps a little bit. I just try to expose myself to different methods of training and scenarios that I may find myself in. You never know what situation you will find yourself in. By the way, running is a good strategy too

Last edited by Eric Joyce : 06-15-2010 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Forgot a word

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Old 06-15-2010, 02:53 PM   #10
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
I respect your opinion and I too once shared your viewpoint. I mean what are the odds right? However, my viewpoint was due to the fact that I did not want to admit that I truly wouldn't know what to do and that the training I received did not address those potential realities. Basically, I was scared to admit I wasn't prepared and brushed it off.
Understood, that is your POV. For myself, my training also doesn't address the possibility that someone might trample me to death with a herd of circus ponies. I'm not concerned about that either, but it's not because I'm scared to admit that I'm not prepared for the circus ponies. See, I just admitted it: I am prepared neither for circus ponies nor for madmen wielding guns -- and I'm handling that inadequacy just fine.

In answer to the question of how I would train for such an eventuality, if I were to train for it...I have no idea. Madmen are by definition unpredictable, and they're also notorious for not being inspired by the standard set of motivators. They obsess about things that the ordinary person doesn't care about, and they aren't deterred by things that put the ordinary person off. If a madman armed with an easy-to-use and deadly distance weapon decides they want to get me, I suppose I'll be got.
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:12 PM   #11
C. David Henderson
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Ah, now that spring is here, the Circus Ponies are returning to Capistrano. Scary beasts.

David Henderson
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:47 PM   #12
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?
Zanshin
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:42 AM   #13
Ketsan
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/43...lott-jr?page=1

The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?
Same way I deal with an insanely good player on the paintball field. I find a nice safe position from which I am unlikely to be shot and I call in as much fire power as I possibly can.
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:52 AM   #14
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Best precaution you can take, IMO, is to live the virtuous life. Be right with the people around, your family, and your Maker. Death will come when and how it will.

...rab

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/43...lott-jr?page=1

The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:57 AM   #15
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Let's see... Since I spent the first part of my life in statistics and critiquing statistical studies... Sorry international friends, but I'm using US statistics. Your mileage may vary.

Causes of death in the US (2006 numbers, most recent #'s I could find). Total number of deaths: 2,426,264

Top 10 causes of death.

Heart disease: 631,636
Cancer: 559,888
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
Diabetes: 72,449
Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
Septicemia: 34,234

Homicide didn't make the top 10, but it was 15th when I dug deeper. The number was 18,573 or about .8% of the total number of deaths. If you do the math and estimate 300 million people in the US, that's, let's see, carry the 2 if you learned new math, add 1 if not, ... Um...

0.0062% of the population.

Or... Someone is 34 times more likely to die of heart disease, 32 times more likely to die of cancer, and on and on.

Of course all this can be terribly skewed depending on socio-economic factors. Where you live, living conditions, etc. Poor neighborhoods have much higher rates while many middle class and higher suburbs are vastly lower.

So... My advice for training for surviving a gun attack is to train daily in interval sprinting. Learn to get up and run fast. Weave a lot too. Do this daily. The lighter you are the faster you can run and change direction too which makes it harder for a nutcase to hit you. Working on this every day or every other day will help develop better cardio-vascular fitness and may reduce cancer risk. So eat more veggies and fruit, less processed crap, and cut the processed carbs. If that can halve your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer you will have done many, many times more good for your life expectancy. Then if you're healthier and thinner you can run away faster should someone come after you with a gun...

Okay, I am being facetious... But seriously, if one is going to be concerned with risks one should take some time to categorize the entire risk profile of life. Do you have those sandpaper traction stickers in your shower so you don't slip and fall? I'm all for training in the various things that are part of martial arts. I have had the honor of training with police, military and SWAT guys in gun takeaways and I really enjoyed the training. It is what we do studying martial arts. That's cool. But keep things in perspective.

Unfortunately I'll never look at circus ponies the same way again. So now my fears are possessed ventriloquist dummies, evil clowns, and circus ponies...

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Old 06-16-2010, 08:55 AM   #16
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Okay, I am being facetious... But seriously, if one is going to be concerned with risks one should take some time to categorize the entire risk profile of life. Do you have those sandpaper traction stickers in your shower so you don't slip and fall? I'm all for training in the various things that are part of martial arts. I have had the honor of training with police, military and SWAT guys in gun takeaways and I really enjoyed the training. It is what we do studying martial arts. That's cool. But keep things in perspective.
Hi Keith,

First, thanks for taking the time to post. As I replied to Mary, playing the odds is a solid, viable answer. We do that every day driving a car. Or flying in a plane. But, the simple fact is that things happen. People win lotteries, people die in car wrecks, planes crash.

Just at a glance, at the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, a little over half of the people were either killed or wounded. All of them were psychologically affected. I would bet all of them that were there thought that something like this could never happen to them. The odds were extremely rare.

Things happen. And I really do get people's choice to play the odds, but please don't dismiss other peoples choices to take these rare events seriously.

There are all kinds of responses from run to safety to train seriously. There's more to it than just physical as there are psychological areas not yet addressed.

I think Mary summarized things fairly well in this:
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Madmen are by definition unpredictable, and they're also notorious for not being inspired by the standard set of motivators. They obsess about things that the ordinary person doesn't care about, and they aren't deterred by things that put the ordinary person off.
Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:58 AM   #17
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?
I'm curious as to what your own answer is. What can you do about a madman with a gun? You used the word "train seriously" -- okay, lay it on me. Just what does that look like? How do you "train seriously" for an attacker who is, by definition, unpredictable? How do you "train seriously" to deal with a distance weapon?

You say I'm "playing the odds". I'm not "playing" anything. I don't know what you mean by "training seriously" to deal with a madman with a gun, and you haven't said what you mean -- just that this article got you freaked out, more or less, and you feel the need to do something. Okay, I understand that...but what??? I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:22 AM   #18
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Keith,

First, thanks for taking the time to post. As I replied to Mary, playing the odds is a solid, viable answer. We do that every day driving a car. Or flying in a plane. But, the simple fact is that things happen. People win lotteries, people die in car wrecks, planes crash.

Just at a glance, at the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, a little over half of the people were either killed or wounded. All of them were psychologically affected. I would bet all of them that were there thought that something like this could never happen to them. The odds were extremely rare.

Things happen. And I really do get people's choice to play the odds, but please don't dismiss other peoples choices to take these rare events seriously.

There are all kinds of responses from run to safety to train seriously. There's more to it than just physical as there are psychological areas not yet addressed.

I think Mary summarized things fairly well in this:

Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?
Hi Mark,
I think you will find that most people do exactly what you said, play the odds and that is fine, to each is own. Most people that are in martial arts feel they are prepared enough for violent encounters, they don't dwell on the "what if" scenarios much or they do their chosen art for other reasons (historical, self defense, fun, exercise, etc.). There are others that take a different view on awareness and preparation based on the area they live in, the line of work they do or past experiences with violence that they do not want to be a victim. Again, to each his own.

I think it's good you ask these questions. Every martial artist should. Sometimes in our busy schedules, we can get lazy and very comfortable with our routines. I think it's important to constantly challenge ourselves mentally, emotionally and physically in our training in order to be prepared for those "what ifs". You may not account for every situation, but at least you know you did your best each day you trained. That's just me. There is a book I read many years ago that really resonated with me and one that I recommend. It's called Meditations on violence by R.A. Miller. A very good read and puts things into perspective, at least it did for me.

There is a phrase Latin phrase that came to mind after I read the article: Sic vis pacem, parabellum = If you want peace, prepare for war. Of course this can be interpreted in a number of ways, but for me it means I should always be aware and prepared, both physically and mentally so that I can walk in peace.to coin a phrase from a Krav Maga teacher.

By the way, I hope it doesn't sound like I am trying to sell Krav Maga to people here on the forum. This is not my intent. I am just sharing my experiences and information that I felt was relevant to the discussion.

Train hard, be safe.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:31 AM   #19
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Mark, it isn't "playing the odds" to understand relative risk. I do train in gun takeaways. I have even had conversations with my advanced kids about guns mostly with the advice of staying down, figuring out where it is coming from, and then getting the heck out of Dodge as soon as possible.

Today we can turn on the news and find stories of your "madmen" shooting up a building. Well, I was out about to go do my banking years ago when the North Hollywood shootout went down. I got down. I figured out where it was coming from. And as soon as possible I drove off. So are you training to deal with multiple gunmen wearing body armor armed with high powered assault rifles? The police themselves were out-gunned and actually went to a local gun store to "borrow" a bunch of better weapons.

Or do you train for the Columbine kids. Two kids seemingly randomly killing. Close together watching each others' backs.

Or is it the single crazy shooter walking through a restaurant?

Or is it the guy in the tower with a hunting rifle taking people out at 100 yards?

Most shootings are domestic violence. How do you prepare for that? But take the case of the late Phil Hartman. His crazy wife shoots him dead. Or drug violence. Or gang violence. Or drive-by's.

So if you can't tell I'm in agreement with Mary here. I don't see what you can prepare for. If you want to talk about preparing for emergencies and thinking clearly under stress, well, that's maybe a good start.

I have a good friend, retired police officer, who prefers to sit with his back to the wall at restaurants with a clear view of the door. He also looks through bank windows before he enters. Good habits, I guess, but he's also armed and fully trained on what to do and how to act. I picked up on his habit of looking into the back before entering once I realized how easy it is to do. Same when entering a fast food joint, etc. That's easy and makes sense.

But how am I going to disarm a guy 30 feet away with an AK47? If I'm armed as well, okay, get behind a concrete column and go for it I guess. That means range time. But... Lots of issues there.

Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.

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Old 06-16-2010, 10:37 AM   #20
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm curious as to what your own answer is. What can you do about a madman with a gun? You used the word "train seriously" -- okay, lay it on me. Just what does that look like? How do you "train seriously" for an attacker who is, by definition, unpredictable? How do you "train seriously" to deal with a distance weapon?

You say I'm "playing the odds". I'm not "playing" anything. I don't know what you mean by "training seriously" to deal with a madman with a gun, and you haven't said what you mean -- just that this article got you freaked out, more or less, and you feel the need to do something. Okay, I understand that...but what??? I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.
Let me define "playing the odds" a bit better. Every time someone gets into a car to drive somewhere and doesn't use a seat belt, they are, as in gambling terms, playing the odds that they won't get into a serious accident and get seriously hurt.

"Playing the odds" means that the odds are sooo huge against something happening that it's statistically near zero. As Keith pointed out, the odds of being a part of something like what the article mentions are, well, near zero.

So, if you don't train at all for those kinds of situations, you're "playing the odds". Nothing wrong with that ... because you're part of the 1,000,000,000 and not the 1.

If you read Eric's response, it sounds like he took training seriously and found a place that covers quite a lot of ground in regards to chaotic situations. I'd say if you want to understand that kind of training, direct your questions to Eric or take the training.

And the article didn't freak me out, nor made me feel like I need to do something. It did make me think.

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.
And thus, this thread was created.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:57 AM   #21
MM
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Re: Madman With A Gun

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
So are you training to deal with multiple gunmen wearing body armor armed with high powered assault rifles? The police themselves were out-gunned and actually went to a local gun store to "borrow" a bunch of better weapons.

Or do you train for the Columbine kids. Two kids seemingly randomly killing. Close together watching each others' backs.

Or is it the single crazy shooter walking through a restaurant?

Or is it the guy in the tower with a hunting rifle taking people out at 100 yards?

Most shootings are domestic violence. How do you prepare for that? But take the case of the late Phil Hartman. His crazy wife shoots him dead. Or drug violence. Or gang violence. Or drive-by's.

So if you can't tell I'm in agreement with Mary here. I don't see what you can prepare for.
And that's the reason for the thread. Maybe someone does know or see ...

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
If you want to talk about preparing for emergencies and thinking clearly under stress, well, that's maybe a good start.
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.
All good stuff. But the reason for threads like this is to *not* do what you say in your last sentence but yet have options if you want to do something.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:31 PM   #22
Eric Joyce
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.
Hi Keith,

In the training I received, we mostly dealt with situations that were more "close quarters" scenarios. Examples: carjacking, gun to the back of the head while laying prostrate on the floor, a bank robbery scenario, airplane hijacking, etc. We did cover some basic defenses, such as learning to take cover, protecting your loved ones and some defensive shooting. This was just to get exposure and feel the experience of these situations. The rest of the material is way more advanced and more for law enforcement, military and security personal which deal with the situations you described. Granted, I will never be 100% prepared for every situation, but I will have some familiarity, which can make a difference in a split second.

Another big part, which you stated, is learning to deal with stress and adrenaline that occurs during a sudden violent & chaotic event. Constant practice and exposure to stress scenarios has helped me a lot over the years in understanding the debilitating effects on the body. A good article to read is Toby Threadgill's article on PCS. Great article if anyone is interested.

I don't think you end up focusing on just one scenario as you stated. You are exposed to a variety of situations and stress levels. Some more likely than others, but the key is experiencing those situations and learn how to deal with them, which I hope none of us would ever have to.

The story you shared about the police officer and the observations he makes are exactly some of the things I started to pick up on and be aware of, especially when I rode the train when I worked in downtown Chicago. Talk about zanshin to the extreme. Good discussion.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:48 PM   #23
DonMagee
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Re: Madman With A Gun

I carry a gun and do my best to never go anywhere where I can not carry a gun. Above that I train to keep my gun in my possession and shoot well under stress.

If I see a madman shooting a gun, I'll try to take concealment/cover and shoot back.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:31 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Obviously my thought/philosophy process runs in line with Keith's.

Funny thing is that I am getting ready to go to a very bad place were the odds are such that I need to carry weapons and employ them.

AND, all my training is geared around dealing with the various scenarios that I am likely to face or deal with. Anything from 300 meters down to close quarters battle.

I will be carrying weapons and prepared to use them 24/7.

Back here in the states...well I agree, how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?

I can't answer that question very well personally and given the odds of it happening, well I don't see any rationale sense in worrying about it 24/7 and still failing cause "i didn't see it coming".

YMMV of course, and I certainly respect someone else's opinions on it.

Personally I think budo training is more about living a good, proper and decent life. One in which you can be proud to have lived when you die at whatever moment that happens.

If it is on a plane with a hijacker, well hopefully I have the courage to do the right action...whatever that may be within the means I have available to me at the time.

I think budo is more about this that the literal preparation for martial success in a situation.

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Old 06-16-2010, 11:12 PM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: Madman With A Gun

Quote:
I think budo is more about this that the literal preparation for martial success in a situation.
Yah, what Kevin said...

Good post.

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