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Old 12-26-2006, 01:35 PM   #76
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Matt Brown wrote:
since most people here are hell bent on the nonexistence of ki, why not change the name of aikido to just aido?
Because the compound term 'aiki' means far more than the singular term 'ki' ... which, BTW, is more often found IN compound than by itself. Jun's got a very good article on 'ki' and how it's actually used in native Japanese online here somewhere.

Quote:
way to sh*t in my cereal, guys.
If that's all it take to mess up your day, you need to maybe re-examine your so-called life?

Quote:
one of the reasons i'm interested in aikido is the ki involved.
Note the famous story of Koichi Tohei (with whom my own teacher spent some time studying many years ago), who, asked to demonstrate his ki, moved a salt shaker across a table. With his hand. 'That' he said, 'is ki.'

Quote:
that being said streetfighter 2's chi/ki ball is nothing but a video game awesomeness,
And you do know that this thread was ancient, in interweb terms, at least 4 years old.

Quote:
but kiatsu, is part of shin shin toitsu aikido. and is an option (in my mind at least) of how to heal loved ones, even if it is does drain years off my life.
People touching other people in a caring way is one the oldest and most primal healing arts. It has nothing to do with secret energy or mystical nonsense. If you reach out and caress someone you love who's hurting, it will help.

Now, as for actual healing ... where's the evidence? Scientific studies? Why do you think that if there were a magical panacea -- replicable, repeatable, verifiable and re-creatable magic -- that can truly heal, then why isn't it being studied and taught in place other than Shinshintoitsu dojo?

Speaking of which, are you in the Virginia Ki Society? If so, please give my respects at the kamiza to George Simcox's memory. He was a dear and delightful man and a good friend, and I spent many hours with him talking about just these things.

Quote:
friends, i've seen many strange things in this life. things that are far stranger than ki.
That ain't hard to do, especially as ki is little more than intent, in most cases.

Quote:
"hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure, can you improve this place with the data the you gather?"
Actually, yes. Science is the root of most of the quality of life we experience in the civilized world. If it weren't for science and research and scientific thought and critical review, many -- MANY -- of us would not be alive today. Think about it. It's a grander thing than any superstition. It is mankind actually taking control of our own destiny and making the world a better place.

YMMV, of course.

cg
(who got an actual Rubber Chicken for Xmas!!!)

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Old 12-26-2006, 01:39 PM   #77
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Cool on the rubber chicken Chuck...I got a pair of ugly Tchibo socks, although I admit they are comfortable!

Was thinking about you and the fact that I have yet to come up and workout with you. What is your schedule over the next week? I might be able to get up there!
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Old 12-26-2006, 04:33 PM   #78
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR:
Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.
Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to.
I think there's 2 problems:
(1.) People are assigning the "mysterious force" nametag to Ki and then saying it doesn't exist. I.e., they're making their own strawman.

(2.)Ki is sort of amalgam of things, in the body usage.... most of the definitions assume that there is one thing that can be pointed at as "Ki". Doesn't work like that.

There's already substantial experimentation on the electromagnetic field effect of fascia, etc. James Oschaman's book on "Energy Medicine" tracks a lot of the source material. The fascia/mind thing and how it affects skin/tendon toughness, strength, force propagation, etc., is the heart of what the Body "Ki" is. So there's your tie ins to "Ki Balls", Strength, Forces, Health, and so on. It's all one subject.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:19 PM   #79
Aristeia
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

There's already substantial experimentation on the electromagnetic field effect of fascia, etc.
not to mention the good work done by the Dharma Initiative.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:21 PM   #80
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
-snip-
Note the famous story of Koichi Tohei (with whom my own teacher spent some time studying many years ago), who, asked to demonstrate his ki, moved a salt shaker across a table. With his hand. 'That' he said, 'is ki.'
-snip-
cg
(who got an actual Rubber Chicken for Xmas!!!)
And if he actually had been using his foot (among other things) to make his hand move, I'd say he was telling the truth.

"The Other cg"
(Who thankfully is not on the Rubber Chicken Circuit)

P.S. Hey Chuck! Say 'hey' to Emily for me!
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Old 12-26-2006, 06:32 PM   #81
Tharis
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
The issue typically is not so much that KI is non-existent, but what exactly KI is and how to you measure of quantify it.

Seems as if no two people will define it the same.

What is your definition?
Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.
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Old 12-26-2006, 06:42 PM   #82
clockworkmechanicalman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

i realize the japanese have many different meanings for ki. i've seen it used in this thread as momentum or the unbendable arm .i not possitive but the unbendable arm sounds like taking an opponent's momentum away from him. i've also heard ki refers to as spiritual energy as well as physical energy. i, personally, believe (and some of you will laugh) in an invisiable world where all sorts of things coexist with us, but on a different plane of existence. if it's a a different time, or reality, or a land were mythological monsters roam the countryside, i don't know. but i believe that ki is the energy of that world, moving into this one...and i have no proof....and it's not possible to prove it.

as far as kiatsu and aikido, i'm new and it sounds like a good method to me. as far as it's all concerned i'm too new to have a opinion. my wife has chronic pain, and she needs to take mass quanities of pills inorder to stay sane. pills some people would steal for a high. i know this much though, one time when we went to this place caledd kateybugs in urbanna, va she was treated to some reiki, and as fate would have it her pain was dulled and she became more energic, i guess, which if you knew my wife doesn't happen often. i just felt like kiatsu maybe related to reiki somehow, as i said i'm new, and unable to start classes yet to a flu, night shift shedule, and bills so here are some crazy faces to get the ball rolling

Last edited by clockworkmechanicalman : 12-26-2006 at 06:57 PM. Reason: no need for reasons
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Old 12-27-2006, 03:57 AM   #83
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Cool on the rubber chicken Chuck...I got a pair of ugly Tchibo socks, although I admit they are comfortable!

Was thinking about you and the fact that I have yet to come up and workout with you. What is your schedule over the next week? I might be able to get up there!
Emily got an Airzooka, but we haven't gotten it assembled yet. The kit had left out three crucial plastic screws ... sigh.

We train tonight, possibly Friday; same sked next week.

cg

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Old 12-27-2006, 03:59 AM   #84
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
"The Other cg"
(Who thankfully is not on the Rubber Chicken Circuit)

P.S. Hey Chuck! Say 'hey' to Emily for me!
LOL! I'll pass along your greets. Hope ya'll are well and having a great slide into the New Year!

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Old 12-27-2006, 04:43 AM   #85
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Thomas Harris wrote:

[/quote]Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.[quote]

Thanks for the reply.

That said, can you explain this in more detail?

I am sure you will get a dissertation on this from Mike Sigman!

I agree, in simplistic terms concerning energy...especially when you get into sub atomic theory...which BTW is where I think the essense of KI is. Especially vibrational energy.
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Old 12-27-2006, 08:03 AM   #86
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Quote:
Thomas Harris wrote:

Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.
Thanks for the reply.

That said, can you explain this in more detail?

I am sure you will get a dissertation on this from Mike Sigman!
No... careful how you use my name. When people start using the term "energy" in a vague sense, I avoid the discussion. "Energy" means something very precise to me; it is a form of bookkeeping that must always balance... no measureable action ever happens for free. Adding and subtracting "energy", as much as we'd all like to believe its possible, simply doesn't happen.

Mike
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Old 12-27-2006, 08:51 AM   #87
DonMagee
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Re: Ki ball of energy

I can buy proper use of body mechanics to increase balance, strength, etc. Proper breathing, movement, coordination of mind and body, how to deal with stress and pressure, how to redirect pressure or power in a direction that gives you stablity. These things are all tangible, testable, and obviously work.

But when people start channeling energy, or doing no touch knock outs etc, it seems their success rate is limited to a group within a certain mind set, such as their own students, or people who want to believe. Rarely do these things work on non believers. Because of this, I have not seen evidence that would cause me to believe you can make a ki ball, or knock someone out with a kiai, generate a wall of energy, etc. The only way my opinion can be changed is sparing with someone who knocks me out without touching me, or getting hit by a blast of ki, etc. The chances of that happening is slim however, so I guess I'll have to stay in the dark.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:07 AM   #88
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
But when people start channeling energy, or doing no touch knock outs etc, it seems their success rate is limited to a group within a certain mind set, such as their own students, or people who want to believe. Rarely do these things work on non believers. Because of this, I have not seen evidence that would cause me to believe you can make a ki ball, or knock someone out with a kiai, generate a wall of energy, etc. The only way my opinion can be changed is sparing with someone who knocks me out without touching me, or getting hit by a blast of ki, etc. The chances of that happening is slim however, so I guess I'll have to stay in the dark.
Well, a lot of the "energy" stuff has a small basis in reality because we all generate an electromagnetic field... and it just so happens that this field is related to the fascia structures which are in turn a major component of the actual "ki" of the body. The stronger your ki gets, the more magnetic field you generate. You can be somewhat aware of this field between your hands... that's the "ki ball" people are usually referring to... but that's because the hands are heavily innervated and heavily vascularized.

Some people apparently can see (or at least sense) the magnetic field of others... that's where all the aura stuff kicks in. Some people learn to control their own field to some degree and as a result can wind up *affecting* the field of others to some degree, although to what degree its real and what degree its suggestion is a variable. There's some correlation between this "field" and human suggestibility that is more than casual.

Regardless, the magnetic field stuff seems to be an interesting natural by-product of the body, but it's not functionally useful in any way that's been definitely proved, as far as I know. Sure, some people will respond wildly upon simply feeling this odd sensation from others and they'll move as a result (many people react like more-than-willing hypnosis subjects), but I've never seen any realistic or useful aspects of this stuff in a fight or other practical sense.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:10 AM   #89
Tharis
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No... careful how you use my name. When people start using the term "energy" in a vague sense, I avoid the discussion. "Energy" means something very precise to me; it is a form of bookkeeping that must always balance... no measureable action ever happens for free. Adding and subtracting "energy", as much as we'd all like to believe its possible, simply doesn't happen.

Mike
Oh yeah. I don't know about the unbendable arm (as I've never gotten it to work), but I do believe that a lot of the "ki" I encounter in my own dojo usually involves transferring it from the legs through the arms and into the partner. I think that moving in certain ways doesn't so much increase the energy as decrease the inefficiencies of movement. Rather than "ki-ing up" or whatever it would be, you're finding the key moment when you can project energy through your body into theirs, sometimes taking theirs for added momentum, and driving it, eventually, into the ground.

Of course, this isn't fully thought out. I mostly prefer the term energy because, while it is still dangerously vague, it isn't as loaded in mysticism as the word "ki" tends to be. I also don't speak japanese and so I feel I can't really have a full enough understanding of the word to use it precisely. Then again, you could say the same about the word energy.
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:27 AM   #90
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

For all practical purposes, the ki is better thought of as a desireable unconscious "connection" that puts itself together as needed in order to support forces. If you let them, the primary muscles will override and you're back to normal in, say, the unbendable arm (I personally avoid that demo... it's too easy to fake). If you can find a proper visualization that will allow the "ki" to absorb and dissipate and promulgate forces (it usually takes a lot of practice with great relaxation in addition to the proper visualizations), the body will set it up so a force goes to the ground (or to the weight or whatever; the ki can also work by itself on a limited basis). Using that approach you can begin to work on a system of movement that greatly augments normal strength. The Ki by itself is not very strong; the ki added to muscle is very strong.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:41 AM   #91
Esaemann
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Re: Ki ball of energy

How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:50 AM   #92
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Yikes...that last is one of the reasons martial arts get a bad name. I'd be carefull with that viewpoint...it is easily used to mislead students and to create cults.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:55 AM   #93
DonMagee
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?
So there should be some medical way of proving this.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:57 AM   #94
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?
As noted in the book "Encounters with Qi" by David Eisenberg, M.D., you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level. Whether you move or not is almost certainly suggestion. So what if you can feel something? I can feel your body heat if you're close to me, but that doesn't mean I can go meditate in a cave for 9 years and turn that ability in city-destroying heat beams.

Someone "getting thrown" by these feelings alone is doing it from suggestion. There are a number of videos of "ki" or "qi" on the internet showing stooge... er, students reacting to someone who can, in all probability, generate a little bit of electromagnetic field. It's a waste of time to go down that road. That stuff is a "side effect" of the main ki stuff, just like your body-heat increases as a side-effect to physical exercise.

In terms of someone "not being sensitive to ki" getting harmed, that's hogwash. I've had a number of people refuse to do things to me because they were afraid I'd get hurt. I push the conversation until they do their best. I've never been moved or hurt. Some of the results have been pretty funny, though.

The old gag was to take your pet goldfish in his bowl to one of these demo's and when they refused to demonstrate on you because you might get hurt, tell them to go ahead and kill your goldfish. Of course they can't do it. What's always been stunning to me is the number of people who seriously thought they could damage someone with their projected Ki.

"If the energy is there"????? What "energy" are you talking about? See my previous post this morning about using the term "energy". If you're positing some type of tissue damage, do the math on how much energy is required to disrupt the tissue structures involved and then tell me where this amount of "energy" is going to come from and what part of the body is going to generate this kind of energy.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-27-2006, 12:36 PM   #95
Esaemann
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Re: Ki ball of energy

As Bruce Lee said, be water my friend. Heck, even better, be "like air". May not ever be possible by anyone, but reaching for the stars and only getting to the top of a mountain wouldn't be so bad in my mind.

However, if this is all hogwash, then I guess I'm "wasting" much time. Probably not the only thing I'm "wasting" time on, though.

As far as giving a bad name to anything, I reject the ability to influence anyone's mind. Much less with only words. Just as my Christian beliefs wouldn't be affected by a pastor who is a hyprocrite. Everyone must find their own way.
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Old 12-27-2006, 12:36 PM   #96
DonMagee
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Re: Ki ball of energy

I am so going to buy a goldfish.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-27-2006, 12:42 PM   #97
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
May not ever be possible by anyone, but reaching for the stars and only getting to the top of a mountain wouldn't be so bad in my mind.
Assuming, of course that you actually get to the top of any mountain. Hard to do if your actual path leads to a swamp.

Mike
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Old 12-27-2006, 01:20 PM   #98
Esaemann
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Sorry, had to split up the post.

I guess my medical way of proving this is limited to my own experience. When I hit a bone on a hard object, it hurts much more than hitting soft tissue on a hard object. Also, ukemi (e.g. hard falls) seems to hurt more when stiff.

Mike,
Re: Your statement about adding muscle to ki made me think of this. Not sure if you're familiar with Yang, Jwing-Ming. If so...

He shows in one of his books a graph of a bell curve (time on the horizontal axis), and describes a transition from jin (mixed with muscle) to qi power. As the bell curve gets steeper (i.e. faster strike), there is more jin and less muscular force. A vertical line is pure qi (no muscle) which describes energy release in an infinitesimal amount of time. What are your thoughts on this?

P.S. I've got tropical fish and will not ask anybody to try it on them
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Old 12-27-2006, 01:28 PM   #99
DonMagee
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
I guess my medical way of proving this is limited to my own experience. When I hit a bone on a hard object, it hurts much more than hitting soft tissue on a hard object. Also, ukemi (e.g. hard falls) seems to hurt more when stiff.
So are we talking about hitting something using your body? And thus we are talking about proper body mechanics used to generate force. Or are we talking about ki balls blasted without touch causing damage?

I will agree that using the body properly can allow you to hit harder then using traditional strength alone (Although I have to wonder how many people can keep these mechanics in a fight). But I still can't believe anyone can cause physical damage to me without touching me. (Throw objects and guns excepting)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-27-2006, 01:40 PM   #100
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki ball of energy

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
Mike,
Re: Your statement about adding muscle to ki made me think of this. Not sure if you're familiar with Yang, Jwing-Ming. If so...

He shows in one of his books a graph of a bell curve (time on the horizontal axis), and describes a transition from jin (mixed with muscle) to qi power. As the bell curve gets steeper (i.e. faster strike), there is more jin and less muscular force. A vertical line is pure qi (no muscle) which describes energy release in an infinitesimal amount of time. What are your thoughts on this?
Well, I know Jimmy Yang. Listen.... all of us, including and especially Yang Jwing Ming, are on a path. None of us knows everything and, if we've got any sense, we continue to search out information and learn. I just watched a video of one of my teachers demonstrating something recently and it's obvious that his power has increased since I last saw him. Bully for him. I want to be like him and keep working.

In terms of hitting becoming more and more "internal" as it gets faster, let me point out that even someone "external" can get faster and stronger. And I've been decked by plenty of "external punches" in my time, so let's not get to laughing too much at how good we are "cuz we use internal".

The "external" styles are roughly the "muscle and bone" styles. The "internal" styles are roughly the "use sinews and tendon for power" styles. However, many so-called "external" styles uses some power from the sinews/tendons/fascia stuff and a lot of the so-called "internal styles" use some brute force, as need be. There is no clearcut definition. The implication from YJM's graph is that the fascia/tendons, etc., are used for the store and release power as skill improves; less arm/shoulder muscle, etc.

Regards,

MIke
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