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Old 06-11-2010, 02:32 PM   #26
RED
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?
ummm.... Extension and ma are principles of Aikido. I do believe I said my one focus is the training of these principles and forms.
So, no I'm not doing the same thing I admonish. lol

Last edited by RED : 06-11-2010 at 02:35 PM.

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:37 PM   #27
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
ummm.... Extension and ma are principles of Aikido. I do believe I said my one focus is the training of these principles and forms.
But you seemed to completely shrug of the notion of someone walking up to you to shove you in the chest as "not being a serious attack". In essence effectively ignoring the principle of ma.
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:40 PM   #28
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?
Well, there are also assumptions made whenever someone postulates a hypothetical attack. I agree with what was said earlier, that this seems like a common schoolboy (or grown-up schoolboy) "attack"...but is it a real threat? Kinda hard to say either way, categorically. If your intent is really to clean someone's clock, it doesn't seem like the most effective opening move -- maybe more like an attempt to intimidate, most likely by someone who doesn't have any fighting skills and is hoping you have even less I think what I'd say is that while you can't really ignore it, it's a mistake to conclude that you must respond as if this "attack" is a serious threat. Options? Too many to list, really.
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:55 PM   #29
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Well, there are also assumptions made whenever someone postulates a hypothetical attack. I agree with what was said earlier, that this seems like a common schoolboy (or grown-up schoolboy) "attack"...but is it a real threat? Kinda hard to say either way, categorically. If your intent is really to clean someone's clock, it doesn't seem like the most effective opening move -- maybe more like an attempt to intimidate, most likely by someone who doesn't have any fighting skills and is hoping you have even less I think what I'd say is that while you can't really ignore it, it's a mistake to conclude that you must respond as if this "attack" is a serious threat. Options? Too many to list, really.
Hi Mary,

I wasn't so much concerned about it being a serious threat or not. I know that it can be, but at the same time, it usually isn't. My concern centers more around letting someone invade your space willy-nilly. If you're going to let someone get close enough to you to shove you, then they're also close enough to do a lot worse and your ability to react to that decreases. That doesn't mean you clean someones clock just because they come at you, but at the same time you can nicely get the message across that coming closer might not be what they want to do
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:00 PM   #30
C. David Henderson
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

FWIW,

In terms of training traditional forms and developing the ability to respond to "any" attack, the fact that traditional attacks are stylized implies to me that any single one is not going to make you proficient at improvising effectively against an attack with a very different form. Practicing the kind of stylized "shoving attack" seen in some of the posted video likely would reduce the chances of freezing if you did need to respond.

Another example -- ushiro ryote dori irimi nage is a bit different than shomen uchi irimi nage and training in one won't teach you everything you'd like to know about another.

As to shoving as an attack, I have to agree with Mary -- impossible for me to say in the abstract whether its an "attack" you need to respond to or not. I've been shoved up against a wall, hard; I can see how it could be the start of something serious.

As for tiger balm, if you just pulled an all-nighter but have to attend a class or meeting, a small dab on the forehead can keep your eyes open even when you are sleeping. It doesn't help so much if you're called upon to say something half-way coherent, though. And you still need to be careful where you place your fingers after applying.

David Henderson
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:07 PM   #31
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
As for tiger balm, if you just pulled an all-nighter but have to attend a class or meeting, a small dab on the forehead can keep your eyes open even when you are sleeping. It doesn't help so much if you're called upon to say something half-way coherent, though. And you still need to be careful where you place your fingers after applying.
Tropic Thunder, and Phi, have forever ruined my ability to think about Tiger Balm in any serious way..
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:16 PM   #32
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
But you seemed to completely shrug of the notion of someone walking up to you to shove you in the chest as "not being a serious attack". In essence effectively ignoring the principle of ma.
I shrug off the concept of obsessing over "hopefully being attacked some day" in general. I shrug off worrying about crap frankly. Worry about learning the principles and forms of Aikido, they encompass all attacks, not just random bar shoving.

Of course it is an attack. I can think of worse attacks, I can think of lesser attacks. I don't consider it greatly committed because of typical socio- aspect of why and reasons in which people typically start shoving matches. Frankly shoving matches tend to happen in groups, and typically it starts off shoving because the parties involved are hoping it gets broken up...that's just the socio-aspect of it. If a guy honestly wants to attack some one, he's gonna throw a punch, grab for some vital points, or grab a weapon. He's not going to waste time shouting, beaitng his chest, and shoving randomly. Shoving is typically a warning. and it displays a mentality of some one who doesn't want to get into a fight,they just want to plume their feathers...typically.

Can you fall down and hit your head if some one pushes you..sure! Hell I've fallen on my head by some one shoving by me on a subway in New York. I mean it can happen. It's not going to make me wanna go out and train for the one time in my life some one might push me in the chest. I'm just going to train in Aikido, and not obsess about any fight I might get into some day. I'd like to remind people that we are unfortunate if some one attacks us some day...not lucky that we get a chance to try out our kung-fu-bullshido. Focusing on hopefully being attacked in this way some day is really negative frankly.

My point is that attack specific training is limiting, and keeps people from learning Aikido. You can learn waza and jitsu...but not Aikido that way.

Hey maybe it's because I'm a chick? I'm just not very likely to get into a match of chest beating any times soon.

Last edited by RED : 06-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.

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Old 06-11-2010, 03:40 PM   #33
Basia Halliop
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
When it gets to the level of serious shoving often there is precious little holding things back -- i.e., the thread is about to break. For some it might be posturing, but for most (IME) it is a sign that things have escalated to a breaking point. That shove is often a "go ahead, take a swing, give me a reason to kick your ass." act. Basically you're often seeing barely contained rage. It is very dangerous indeed and one would be quite unwise to just shrug it off as somehow being an uncommitted attack.
If I'm understanding you, what you're describing sounds more to me like a threat or warning signal than an attack itself... potentially very dangerous because of what it predicts and because of the psychology it's telling you about, more than it is dangerous in and of itself in a directly physical way. I.e., dangerous because they're on the verge of attacking you in a more serious way, rather than because they already have?

In any case, how do you respond to it? Do you respond in a physical way with some 'technique' (beyond stepping out of the way)? If as you say it's a way of saying 'give me a reason to kick your ass', or issuing a challenge, then does that mean there's still a chance of just walking away?
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:05 PM   #34
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

I don't know how many of us have been shoved before. But in my experience, if I just throw your hands up and say "whoa take it easy" it's over. Shoving is usually posturing, and it is usually done to encourage you to swing at them to justify a fight happening. Just don't let a fight happen.

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:13 PM   #35
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
If I'm understanding you, what you're describing sounds more to me like a threat or warning signal than an attack itself... potentially very dangerous because of what it predicts and because of the psychology it's telling you about, more than it is dangerous in and of itself in a directly physical way. I.e., dangerous because they're on the verge of attacking you in a more serious way, rather than because they already have?

In any case, how do you respond to it? Do you respond in a physical way with some 'technique' (beyond stepping out of the way)? If as you say it's a way of saying 'give me a reason to kick your ass', or issuing a challenge, then does that mean there's still a chance of just walking away?
I think it is a remarkably difficult question which is why I find it so bothersome that some kind of wave it away giving a simple answer. That shove could be posturing. But it could also be someone near the breaking point.

The problem with these discussions is that context matters a great deal. And what you do will depend greatly on that context. The danger here, in my mind at least, is the dismissal of these things as being "just" one thing or another. Life is rarely that simple.

I've been shoved. I've been in fights. I've been attacked. Sometimes it is just posturing -- once was a guy at a restaurant who was yelling at his wife/girlfriend/date/whatever. He was getting *very* agitated and I went up with another friend trying to calm him down. He gave me a not-so-friendly shove. However, I grounded myself and barely moved. That was enough with this guy to start backing down (not to mention the guy I was with was even bigger than me). I wasn't threatening, I was trying my best to calm him. When he shoved my reaction was to ground it but I was ready to take him down depending on how he behaved. Once he realized I wasn't going to be easy to push around and that I wasn't at all impressed with him he seemed to lose his desire to get more angry. But he still stomped off in a huff.

Another time a guy pushed at a bar totally unprovoked (best I could tell). I was just walking through the crowd and he decided I was too close/had the wrong look/whatever. He pushed hard and I didn't see it coming. I was pushed into some other guys and the guy came at me very quickly only to get slammed by the bouncer who saw the whole thing.

Those are my experiences. I don't have easy answers. And *that* I think is the "correct answer" -- namely that it ain't quite so simple. I just caution people against thinking that a push is "just" one thing or another. Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.

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Old 06-11-2010, 05:34 PM   #36
Janet Rosen
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.
Yep.

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Old 06-11-2010, 05:41 PM   #37
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
My point is that attack specific training is limiting, and keeps people from learning Aikido. You can learn waza and jitsu...but not Aikido that way.
Well, that's certainly true if the practice is to work on a specific technique for a specific attack without any consideration for the generality of the attack or technique - say, only teaching iriminage as a response to a shomenuchi attack. However, I think it's perfectly valid to study, say, iriminage, from various attacks (including a chest shove, I suppose). We all need to work on waza to get at the underlying concepts of aikido. With the practice of many different techniques from a variety of attacks we gain, hopefully, a deeper understanding of timing, distance, connection, posture, etc. etc.

Cheers,
Garth
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:52 PM   #38
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Eek! Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.
Man Keith, you took my post right out of my fingers . The punch to the face after the shove is the usual chain of events I've seen. The other version involves the victim who is shoved into another attacker or so that he falls and then the shover's pals swoop in and start kicking the crap out of you. Saw a guy do some months in the hospital with a broken rib that punctured his lung on that one. Another had a fractured skull after being kicked up while on the ground.

Regarding what Aikido waza response to use, there are really too many to name simply because ones ma ai in Aikido allows many options from mere tai sabaki to atemi waza to waki gatame and other arm techniques to kotegaeshi. Even moreso if one trains a lot of fast paced randori with quality attacks from close range.

Imho if one gets shoved to start with then as far as Aikido training goes your ma ai and reaction needs a lot of work. I think what Keith and Jason said are very correct overall. Honestly if one thinks that allowing your ma ai to be invaded is Aikido well...

Personally I think it is important to have some experience in these sorts of things before tossing around theories based on... well nothing.

Best
LC

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Old 06-11-2010, 09:17 PM   #39
Michael Varin
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
I don't know how many of us have been shoved before. But in my experience, if I just throw your hands up and say "whoa take it easy" it's over. Shoving is usually posturing, and it is usually done to encourage you to swing at them to justify a fight happening. Just don't let a fight happen.
and
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.
I think Keith makes a very good point, but I do understand where Maggie is coming from. I have seen this situation go both ways a number of times.

However, an interesting question is raised: Once "push to the chest" is mentioned as an attack, almost everyone seems to instantly default to, 1) posturing, 2) push quickly followed by punch. Are either of these two situations what was originally contemplated in techniques we see against pushes?

I would say, no. I think the situation is closer to this:

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The other version involves the victim who is shoved into another attacker or so that he falls and then the shover's pals swoop in and start kicking the crap out of you.
Not responding in the situation Larry articulated is very bad. Also, this situation, more than the others, sheds light on why your response may look the way it does in aikido versus just standing your ground and punching the guy in the face.

But, just like Keith said, much of this is contextual.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:20 PM   #40
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

whatever it is, a shove is typically about off balancing you. Whatever they follow it up with is what they follow it up with. The question I have is..."what is your native or spontaneous response to this?"

Can you maintain your integrity or base?

You can throw your hands up, throw a punch or try to move out of the way after the shove. Whatever you do, you ain't gonna do much until you regain your center/base/balance.

So until you can maintain and restore your base/structure your dead in the water. What we should be training in response to the shove is how do I do this?

If you can maintain your base/structure you really are free to do whatever as it no longer really matters much what his intentions may be....the base response would be the same. Shake hands, hit him, or neutralize, or block..whatever.

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Old 06-11-2010, 09:29 PM   #41
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Jujutsu = Using timing in accord with physical movement to lead an attacker in an effort to effect a disruption in structure.

Aiki = Centrally held Self with opposing spirals that instantaneously matches incoming energy in an appropriate manner to destabilize attacker's center on contact.
Alright! You know I love Japanese word = ???

Do I sense another definition thread?

-Michael
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:56 PM   #42
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

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Garth Jones wrote: View Post
Well, that's certainly true if the practice is to work on a specific technique for a specific attack without any consideration for the generality of the attack or technique - say, only teaching iriminage as a response to a shomenuchi attack. However, I think it's perfectly valid to study, say, iriminage, from various attacks (including a chest shove, I suppose). We all need to work on waza to get at the underlying concepts of aikido. With the practice of many different techniques from a variety of attacks we gain, hopefully, a deeper understanding of timing, distance, connection, posture, etc. etc.

Cheers,
Garth
I just really believe in letting Aikido breath. Don't try to force techniques in places. Just study Aikido.
I've seen people do it, I've done it, everyone does it from time to time. They have a technique they want to try out or do from a specific attack, and they force it. I think at that point out Aikido is awkward and we're taking a step back in Aikido.

It's sort of like trying to force square pegs in round holes.
That's why I'm animate about training in the principles first and foremost.

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:57 PM   #43
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

A shove whether it is a light push or a raging attack is an unwanted invasion into your personal space and requires a response if you want it not to happen again.

A response of "whoaaa, cool down" is ridiculous. The attacker needs to know that the push is something they do not want to do again.

A well trained person should be able to respond at least to the point of unbalancing and gaining control of the attacker. After that whatever appropriate is should be done.

David
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:17 PM   #44
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

What, "whoa cool down" has saved my ass more than once.

Sometimes there is nothing more off balancing than some one reacting to defuse a situation, when you were trying to incite the situation.(it takes two to fight anyways.)
IMO:
I don't promote this "need" control or to school my attacker, or inform my attacker of how they should be or not be acting.
The only person's behavior you can control is your own in the end. No matter how great of a martial artist you are, that's your only guarantee. A well trained martial artist knows this.

Last edited by RED : 06-11-2010 at 11:21 PM.

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Old 06-11-2010, 11:53 PM   #45
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Any of Shodokan's Atemi Waza;

Shomen ate
Aigamae ate
Gyakugamae ate
Gedan ate
Ushiro ate

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

David
I don't like shodokan aikido, but I really like that gedan ate...
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:06 AM   #46
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
What, "whoa cool down" has saved my ass more than once.

Sometimes there is nothing more off balancing than some one reacting to defuse a situation, when you were trying to incite the situation.(it takes two to fight anyways.)
IMO:
I don't promote this "need" control or to school my attacker, or inform my attacker of how they should be or not be acting.
The only person's behavior you can control is your own in the end. No matter how great of a martial artist you are, that's your only guarantee. A well trained martial artist knows this.
I once got asked by a drunken man why i was looking at him; i explained very calmly and eloquently that i was not wearing my glasses, and so could not see him - hence, i wasn't looking at him.
Unfortunately it didn't 'save my ass', by off balancing and defusing the situation: he gave it a few seconds and attempted to headutt me.

I thought aikido was precisely about controlling an attacker - i.e., controlling the behaviour of another? I certainly thought that was what i was doing when i was pinning people at training all those times...

On topic: i'm surprised nobody's posted a clip of Gozo Shioda responding to a two-handed chest push by like, pushing back with his chest...i doubt i've ever watched a clip of him in which he doesn't perform it.

9 seconds in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfFnrdW5ifU
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:19 AM   #47
Michael Hackett
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Males probably have a different experience with "chest pushes" than women do. I've rarely seen one woman push another that way, but have seen women push men against the the chest. What seems the most typical is one individual pushing another repeatedly until something else takes place. A couple of violent pushes and the intended victim runs away or lashes back and thus gives an excuse for a fight or pile-on attack. Context is the key issue, but don't discount the chest push as an attack - the intention is to overcome you through intimidation or through force.

The OP was interested in learning what others thought an effective Aikido technique might be for these situations. Virtually all are effective and others might be easier and more efficient. Personally, I favor gokyo for a quick, down 'n dirty response to a linear attack like the chest push. That said, maybe someday I can learn to respond with something like Shioda Sensei could do.

Michael
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:33 AM   #48
dps
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Also remember you will react as you have trained.

If you are repeatedly bullied this way you might want to train on how to react to this specific attack.

David
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:06 AM   #49
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Alright! You know I love Japanese word = ???

Do I sense another definition thread?
Please say we don't have to go down this road again.

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Old 06-13-2010, 09:19 AM   #50
C. David Henderson
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I just really believe in letting Aikido breath[e]. Don't try to force techniques in places. Just study Aikido.
This is something many of us can agree with, but, FWIW, I think you then go astray in seeking to apply the principle you recite in support of your broader position:

Quote:
I've seen people do it, I've done it, everyone does it from time to time. They have a technique they want to try out or do from a specific attack, and they force it. I think at that point out Aikido is awkward and we're taking a step back in Aikido.
Why do you suppose they "force it?"

Because there is something about that specific attack that the particular Aikido technique is poorly designed to handle, or because they're just beginning to study the pinciples of action inhering in that particular confrontation and haven't developed the same level of fluency in their response?

I have tried specific techiques for specific attacks that seemed to go both ways. I may have learned as much or more when the technique seemed difficult or awkward to apply because it was poorly suited to the particular attack as when the awkwardness rested on my own lack of practice dealing with the particular attack that way.

Here, though, the OP asked which techniques worked well in response to a particular situation. So that seems to leave out this dilemma:

Quote:
It's sort of like trying to force square pegs in round holes.
In which case, to me, the problem isn't forcing a technique that doesn't work against a shove to the chest (as opposed to one that works "well"), but in not having developed the ability to deal with that particular "attack" effectively.

All of this is separate and apart from the "whoa there" debate, the frequency and seriousness of "chest shoving" as an attack, and whether obsessing about particular forms of attack in anticipation of encountering them on the "street" is a good idea or a bad idea.

This issue is just about training.

I have to agree with others on that issue; studying responses to a shove is a perfectly legitimate part of Aikido training, perhaps especially given the art's focus and aims.

And, at some point in the study of Aikido, it is appropriate and even necessary to go beyond simple replication of the forms shown in practice.

IME the above holds true irrespective of whether one is trying to find underlying principles through their training, as opposed to memorizing pat responses to particular situations.

YMMV

Regards

David Henderson
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