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Old 06-10-2010, 03:48 PM   #1
tim evans
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techniques to use against a front chest push?

Some type of ryotetori waza prehaps?

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:06 PM   #2
Robert Calton
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

"Uke negashi tenkan" looks to be something along those lines.

Good luck!
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:32 PM   #3
ChrisHein
 
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Techniques from ryokata dori would be a good choice.

Like:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=256

Or techniques from Mune dori, like:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=681

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=657

Hope that helps.

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Old 06-10-2010, 07:26 PM   #4
RED
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

I don't know if that is even really an attack and would require something. I mean it is antagonistic. But it doesn't seem like an attack you'd have to worry about. Usually shoving is followed up by an actual attack.

MM
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Old 06-10-2010, 08:04 PM   #5
Ketsan
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Good posture, good timing and a small flick of the hips. Eye rolling optional.
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:06 PM   #6
Michael Hackett
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

The chest push is a common form of attack, usually by young men. You see it in schoolyard encounters and around bars all the time, at least here in the West.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:13 PM   #7
Adam Huss
 
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Tim,
I'll throw out a couple suggestions specific to chest push as just about any technique that deals with any grab or thrusting punch would be applicable.

Ubishime (finger lock). Rather than just trying to grab uke's fingers out of the air try shuffle-in push block w/forward hand guiding uke's fingers into your rear hand to apply ubishime. From there pick any number of techniques.

Hijiosae (elbow control/pin). Let uke's hand make contact with your chest but maintain strong posture. Move back slightly if you feel you must but you want uke's elbow to lock out. Simply bring up your hand that is on same side (mirroring) as uke's pushing arm...keeping your elbow down and in while cuping/holding uke's elbow from underneath. Lean into ukes hand with your strong stance...pushing off that back leg, while your hand is putting pressure up and slightly toward you to maintain that lock and kind of holding it your chest. Then pick a technique from their. Make sense? LOL, sorry I know that was confusing.

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Old 06-10-2010, 10:26 PM   #8
Adam Huss
 
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Some supplemental video to help clarify;

disclaimers: so this isn't from chest push, its from shoulder-grab face punch...but it shows the elbow-locky thingy I was trying to explain in the previous post (probably more correct to call it hijishime, but who knows..I kinda just did it on the fly). Its at the :49 second mark...sorry I don't have a clip of just the chest push but you can just skip to the 49 sec mark and it's there (btw. we actually do technique from chest push a lot, but I don't think its on any testing requirements).

And I agree with you that any ryotetori should work with chest push as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2hSGUmU0b4

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:30 AM   #9
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I don't know if that is even really an attack and would require something. I mean it is antagonistic. But it doesn't seem like an attack you'd have to worry about. Usually shoving is followed up by an actual attack.
If they are pushing you off of something (like a cliff) or into something (like traffic) it is most decidedly something to worry about. Being pushed by someone with bad intentions can cost you your life.

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Old 06-11-2010, 05:39 AM   #10
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If they are pushing you off of something (like a cliff) or into something (like traffic) it is most decidedly something to worry about. Being pushed by someone with bad intentions can cost you your life.
I don't think you even need to take it to extremes like this. If you're not willing to react to someone invading your space with not-warm intentions, you're not going to react if they follow up with anything else either.

Your first vid is how I have responded to this in the past and it worked just fine.
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:36 AM   #11
phitruong
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

kick the balls. jab the throat. ...oh wait, this is aikido. damn! nevermind! need more coffee this morning.
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:56 AM   #12
MM
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

WWUD?
What Would Ueshiba Do?

According to historical articles and interviews, Ueshiba pretty much neutralized a push to the chest while just standing or sitting. Since the push was neutralized, Ueshiba was entirely free to move and do whatever he wanted.

I guess the first thing I'd wonder is which part are you wanting to train? The aiki based part that Ueshiba exemplified? Or the jujutsu based part that Ueshiba showed with techniques? For Ueshiba, his aiki allowed spontaneous jujutsu techniques to happen.

Are you working on aiki to allow jujutsu to happen? Or are you focusing on jujutsu to hopefully build aiki? The former is worth training while the latter will never happen.

Jujutsu = Using timing in accord with physical movement to lead an attacker in an effort to effect a disruption in structure.

Aiki = Centrally held Self with opposing spirals that instantaneously matches incoming energy in an appropriate manner to destabilize attacker's center on contact.
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:30 AM   #13
Walker
 
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
kick the balls. jab the throat. ...oh wait, this is aikido. damn! nevermind! need more coffee this morning.
Actually it is kick to the balls and apply aiki.

-Doug Walker
光道館・叢雲道場
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:44 AM   #14
phitruong
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Actually it is kick to the balls and apply aiki.
does apply aiki the same as apply tiger balm? if it is then that's just cruel! first you kick him in the gonad, then apply tiger balm to the same place? that's is just inhuman and against all Geneva conventions. have you no love and compassion to your fellow man? have you not understand the do of aiki? .... hold on, i need to go wash my hands off first, the tiger balm is getting into my eyes and other places....
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:55 AM   #15
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
The chest push is a common form of attack, usually by young men. You see it in schoolyard encounters and around bars all the time, at least here in the West.
I wouldn't exactly call it a committed attack. Let's be honest here. Half the time when guys circle each other, take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......They call it "Redneck-shi-do". There should be schools for this discipline

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:15 AM   #16
phitruong
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......
if women do this more, guys wouldn't spend time fighting each others. prevention should be better than learning counter techniques.
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:30 AM   #17
RED
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if women do this more, guys wouldn't spend time fighting each others. prevention should be better than learning counter techniques.
Actually, I was under the assumption that all grievances between men were, in some way directly or indirectly, caused by women.

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:48 AM   #18
Keith Larman
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

To stay serious and focused, the more subtle explanation of these things has more to do with testosterone and aggression than with the women involved. When it gets to the level of serious shoving often there is precious little holding things back -- i.e., the thread is about to break. For some it might be posturing, but for most (IME) it is a sign that things have escalated to a breaking point. That shove is often a "go ahead, take a swing, give me a reason to kick your ass." act. Basically you're often seeing barely contained rage. It is very dangerous indeed and one would be quite unwise to just shrug it off as somehow being an uncommitted attack.

Get a few testosterone shots sometime and see how quickly that rage can go from mildly pissed to "I can't see through the blood in my eyes".

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Old 06-11-2010, 12:09 PM   #19
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I wouldn't exactly call it a committed attack. Let's be honest here. Half the time when guys circle each other, take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......They call it "Redneck-shi-do". There should be schools for this discipline
I tihnk that's a naive view to have Maggie. I don't argue that it often happens that way, but to assume that is setting yourself up for disaster. To simply let someone invade your space, someone who is obviously NOT your friend, is a foolish mistake to make. I have seen someone pushed so hard they came off their feet and landed on their head, on concrete, because they stood there smiling and unconcerned when someone came to shove them like that. It is neither an over-reaction or un-aiki to protect your space.
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:32 PM   #20
Adam Huss
 
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

I think the OP asked about techniques to deal with chest push, not for a debate on the practicality of attacks used in aikido. Maybe this course of debate is best for a thread about "practicality of attacks in aikido," which I am sure would generate lengthy discussion.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:59 PM   #21
RED
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I tihnk that's a naive view to have Maggie. I don't argue that it often happens that way, but to assume that is setting yourself up for disaster. To simply let someone invade your space, someone who is obviously NOT your friend, is a foolish mistake to make. I have seen someone pushed so hard they came off their feet and landed on their head, on concrete, because they stood there smiling and unconcerned when someone came to shove them like that. It is neither an over-reaction or un-aiki to protect your space.
I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL

Last edited by RED : 06-11-2010 at 01:04 PM.

MM
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:07 PM   #22
tim evans
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
I think the OP asked about techniques to deal with chest push, not for a debate on the practicality of attacks used in aikido. Maybe this course of debate is best for a thread about "practicality of attacks in aikido," which I am sure would generate lengthy discussion.
Thanks to all who posted and for the video links very practical responses to this paticular attack

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:10 PM   #23
tim evans
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL
Well Maggie I,ll leave it LOL

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:16 PM   #24
dps
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Any of Shodokan's Atemi Waza;

Shomen ate
Aigamae ate
Gyakugamae ate
Gedan ate
Ushiro ate

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

David
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:24 PM   #25
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Re: techniques to use against a front chest push?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL
By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?
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