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Old 06-09-2010, 11:40 AM   #26
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure, I know Takeda, I trained with his teacher many times, and I know many of his contemporaries. That doesn't change what he's doing in the videos, however.

Best,

Chris
Dear Chris,
So exactly what is Takeda Sensei doing? Can you please enlighten me here?Maybe you would care share your viewpoint on the content of the videoes?
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #27
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Dear Chris,
So exactly what is Takeda Sensei doing? Can you please enlighten me here?Maybe you would care share your viewpoint on the content of the videoes?
Sorry, I thought that I was clear earlier . IMO, what's going on is pretty much what goes on in any of those bizarre "ki master" videos floating around.

When I spoke to one of Takeda's contemporaries about those demos he started out with "brainwashing" and "hypnotism" and then it went downhill from there.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-09-2010, 11:57 AM   #28
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi ,
Having read the opening few sentences in this last item I find it practically incomprehensible.
Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.

Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.

So Yamaguichi sensei didn't do this or that, and that's the end of it? I guess everyone who studied under Osensei just did what he did?

Aikido is a path... its not book with a definite ending. Look...if you're really curious, be like me. Travel to his dojo and find out for yourself. He has a following in Canada, Germany and Australia. If Japan's too far out, pick one of those and go train.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:50 PM   #29
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

So he's Yoda? I find this deeply disturbing......

Takeda has good credentials and is on a reputable board. He's attained 8th Dan and yet he must resort to "smoke and mirrors"? What's the point? To discredit the art of Aikido as a serious study and embarrass the Aikido community?

I've seen similar displays from certain people in Japan who have these claims of doing the impossible by extending their Ki. One I can remember was this guy who could make Japanese women have orgasms just by moving his hand above them without touch (Now this would be a great skill to have if it so existed!).

What disturbs me most is:

1) Why do these individuals need to make themselves into David Copperfield? It seems a real disrespect to people's intelligence.

2) Why do the Ukes/subjects comply with this ridiculous charade? Are they in fear of these people harming them if the don't go along with the show?

Maybe I'm being to harsh and not seeing something for what it may represent more than the likelihood of it being physically real. Please help...I'm confused.

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Old 06-09-2010, 02:50 PM   #30
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.
I understand that a demo is more kata than jiyuwaza. But the teacher gets to demo what he wants to present. And what my eyes see is not ukes with "an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage," but ukes who are running at him headlong, giving up their centers before he has done a thing.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:53 PM   #31
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.
Curran sensei was referring to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. I think it is quite well known but if you don't know, it is better to ask. If people are polite and respectful, they will endeavour to explain things to you. If the explanations are still unclear, a good thing to do is to continue to ask questions and hopefully get more detailed explanations and examples. In the end though, you may just have to agree to disagree on things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

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Old 06-09-2010, 06:03 PM   #32
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Maybe you should take comprehension lessons. I think its pretty clear what I've said. Unlike your reference to songs that I don't know anything about dear Curran.

Uke is asked to have an intention of absolutely wanting to attack nage. Nage grabs/connects with that intention and cuts it. That's all. We're dealing with intent alone and as I said, its a demo.

So Yamaguichi sensei didn't do this or that, and that's the end of it? I guess everyone who studied under Osensei just did what he did?

Aikido is a path... its not book with a definite ending. Look...if you're really curious, be like me. Travel to his dojo and find out for yourself. He has a following in Canada, Germany and Australia. If Japan's too far out, pick one of those and go train.
Dear Ahmad,
Rather than advise me to take lessons in comprehension I would suggest that you do some research on the performer [Danny Kaye ] and his song relating to the fact that an Emperor [who was nude ] believed he was wearing new clothes.This is a well known Hans Christian Anderson story.Maybe a bit before your time?
I was using this songs theme to illustrate the point that I consider Takeda Sensei and his Ukes demo [as shown ] is in my opinion suspect.Why not educate yourself and listen to the words of the song?You of course defend this video by trotting out the old chestnut 'Its a demo 'to justify the performance of the people in the video.
Takeda Sensei may well have a following in many countries, that in itself does not prove anything as far as this demo is concerned.You also suggest I should go to Japan or other areas to train and see for myself.Based on the stuff on this video why would I want to waste valuable time /money and resources to 'understand ' this material??I have better things to do with my time.
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Old 06-09-2010, 06:18 PM   #33
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Curran sensei was referring to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. I think it is quite well known but if you don't know, it is better to ask. If people are polite and respectful, they will endeavour to explain things to you. If the explanations are still unclear, a good thing to do is to continue to ask questions and hopefully get more detailed explanations and examples. In the end though, you may just have to agree to disagree on things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

Hi Carl,
Thanks for posting you comment. It would appear that our friend Ahmad is not familiar with the Danny Kaye song.As you say rather than make a dig at me [in a manner of speaking ] if he is unaware of Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye /the song I will be happy to enlighten him.
On a personal note we had a good one day course last weekend.I am off to meet Doshu /Waka Sensei next week.Hope you are well. Joe.
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Old 06-09-2010, 06:59 PM   #34
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Can we please refrain from going off topic and personal? Surely there is enough here to discuss without resorting to unpleasant distractions! Thank you.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:05 PM   #35
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Dear Curran,
I wasn't taking a dig at you. If you look at my response, it was to your quote that I was incomprehensible. The subject was about what uke was doing at that point in time when they were holding a fist. (Janet, that's for you too) Nothing else. Not even about what uke was doing when they were running to attack sensei takeda. This answer is for our initial poster who wanted to know what was going on. Since no one else seems to be able to answer first hand about the demo, I volunteered to share the information. Nowhere in this post did I advocate was Sensei was doing, I was only explaining what he did. Why is a different story all together. And yes we all know Doshu isn't fond of Sensei's demos nowadays what with the fan waving and everything...

I can't claim to know Takeda sensei very well, but what little time I've been with him and what was shared by my sensei, I understand him to be a good person. Not some ego struck popinjay who needs unadulterated adoration by his uke's and spectators. Any sane person would know doing this demos will invite ridicule and criticism. He's had more than his fair share of doing demos in All Japan before and after fan waving. Sensei Takeda I know to be quite sane. So don't ask me why.

I'm not being paid to stick my neck out. The naysayer in the minority will quickly find himself set up for the a public lynching. But I can't stand by without sharing the other side of the story for someone who's really interested to know. I'm not an expert, this is what I know. Make of it what you will.

Your return was to mention the song related to Hans Christian's book. Yes he was before my time, although I have read some of his stories, the empires new clothes that I read never mentioned this song. Who this Danny Kaye is of no interest to me or relevant to the topic at hand. You equate Takeda to the story and that's your prerogative, I disagree and that's mine. But we're from different countries and cultural background, so my listening favourites, my interests and my understanding may differ from yours. I digress. Let's just say that we misunderstood each other. No harm no foul.

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Old 06-09-2010, 09:13 PM   #36
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Uke is asked to have intention of killing nage. Like really really I'm going to kill you with this punch. The other guys just hold on to him. If he moves using his own muscle, they can stop him easily. If he moves without conscious thought, the others will fall too.

Sensei grabs that intention, and cuts.

Its a demonstration of intent and connecting with intent. Not a demonstration to do an invisible throw.

I wanted to post a video of another Aiki jujitsu practitioner who worked with one of the Dallas footballers, plus a lady pro golfer and some basketballers. He did extensive aiki fake outs that caused the footballers and basketballers to freeze as he walk past them. Certainly no touching involved. Sure he did not throw them down, but they stopped short of even touching him or his football.

Unfortunately, both videos that I linked to have now been removed. Still there are plenty floating around on the net, and maybe one day you'll get the chance to feel it for yourself.
look @ the clip carefully and clearly. In the demonstration, there are bunch of people on other side of the mat, standing there try to hold their position without the thinking of attacking, the sensei just wave his hand from other side of the mat. all of them falls. what is that? it is not the connection, it is not the cutting the thinking of ukes...
i do not understand..
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:06 PM   #37
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Watching this video, I felt like I was injected with a poison. Fear not my fellow Aikidoka, because I offer the anitidote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr68Ix9nXJk

You'll be alright soon.........It should take effect quickly.

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Old 06-09-2010, 10:45 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

I've seem one of my own senseis trick ukes into falling over, essentially accomplishing a "no-touch throw" the way Takeda is in some places here. But the long-distance stuff in this video is nothing short of comical. Aikido is martial techniques, not magic tricks. Videos like this are just fuel for the Bullshido fire.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:44 AM   #39
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Danh Phi Ngoc wrote: View Post
look @ the clip carefully and clearly. In the demonstration, there are bunch of people on other side of the mat, standing there try to hold their position without the thinking of attacking, the sensei just wave his hand from other side of the mat. all of them falls. what is that? it is not the connection, it is not the cutting the thinking of ukes...
i do not understand..
Rather than speculate on what Takeda is or isn't doing, or even whether his ukes are doing/not doing what they're supposed/not supposed to be doing, perhaps you should make a trip to Kamakura and ask Takeda himself to help you understand.

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:10 AM   #40
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Dear Curran,
I wasn't taking a dig at you. If you look at my response, it was to your quote that I was incomprehensible. The subject was about what uke was doing at that point in time when they were holding a fist. (Janet, that's for you too) Nothing else. Not even about what uke was doing when they were running to attack sensei takeda. This answer is for our initial poster who wanted to know what was going on. Since no one else seems to be able to answer first hand about the demo, I volunteered to share the information. Nowhere in this post did I advocate was Sensei was doing, I was only explaining what he did. Why is a different story all together. And yes we all know Doshu isn't fond of Sensei's demos nowadays what with the fan waving and everything...

I can't claim to know Takeda sensei very well, but what little time I've been with him and what was shared by my sensei, I understand him to be a good person. Not some ego struck popinjay who needs unadulterated adoration by his uke's and spectators. Any sane person would know doing this demos will invite ridicule and criticism. He's had more than his fair share of doing demos in All Japan before and after fan waving. Sensei Takeda I know to be quite sane. So don't ask me why.

I'm not being paid to stick my neck out. The naysayer in the minority will quickly find himself set up for the a public lynching. But I can't stand by without sharing the other side of the story for someone who's really interested to know. I'm not an expert, this is what I know. Make of it what you will.

Your return was to mention the song related to Hans Christian's book. Yes he was before my time, although I have read some of his stories, the empires new clothes that I read never mentioned this song. Who this Danny Kaye is of no interest to me or relevant to the topic at hand. You equate Takeda to the story and that's your prerogative, I disagree and that's mine. But we're from different countries and cultural background, so my listening favourites, my interests and my understanding may differ from yours. I digress. Let's just say that we misunderstood each other. No harm no foul.
Hi Ahmad,
No big deal.No need for anybody to consider duelling at forty paces with feather dusters.
If you are happy to believe that the stuff on Takeda Sensei vid is the real deal ,I have no problem with that.As you say I have my own opinion, you have yours.Lets just agree to disagree on the subject of Takeda Sensei .
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:43 AM   #41
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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No need for anybody to consider duelling at forty paces with feather dusters.
Did someone say "feather dusters"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt34a...elated#t=2m25s


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Old 06-10-2010, 03:09 AM   #42
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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George Howard wrote: View Post
The second link is the other one I was looking for, LOL. I never realized it was from Chicago, next time I'm in town I will have to observe a class...this stuff is of interest to me.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:07 AM   #43
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Ahmad, I was quite eager to train with Takeda myself in his Kamakura dojo... until I saw his recent demonstrations. I'm trying to keep an open mind but it is difficult (for me at least) to see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement, particularly in a venue as public as the All-Japan.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:46 AM   #44
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Raul, you are not in the minority and I'm sure some of his students share the same feeling. But If you're lucky enough to train there, I think you should take the opportunity anyway and give it your best. I'm reminded there's only 1 rule... you cannot quit halfway through the class or you won't get invited back.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 06-10-2010, 07:33 AM   #45
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Hello Raul,

As a neutral bystander in this discussion, I second Ahmad's suggestion. You should not take the All-Japan Demonstrations as any indication at all of what a shihan does in his/her own dojo. I have attended the classes of Watanabe Sensei at the Hombu Dojo and they were quite different from what he showed at the All-Japan Demonstration. I have never met Mr Takeda, but I trained for many years with his teacher, Yamaguchi Seigo, and I know very well what he was doing--and not doing. Yamaguchi Sensei never established any official lineage, so there are none who can claim to be doing Yamaguchi's aikido, neither Takeda nor Endo nor Tissier nor Yasuno.

However, your post raises an interesting issue. You state that you do not see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement in a venue as public as the All-Japan. I think you misunderstand the purpose of the All-Japan demonstration. It is not intended as a demonstration to show aikido to people who do not understand aikido. The best way of describing it is as a 'renewal of the myths of the Japanese Aikikai tribe'. The tribe assembles [participants and spectators] and collectively participates in a reaffirmation of the myths and values of the tribe.

Think of Avatar, which is probably the best way the Aikikai would like to see the technical and social value of aikido. All those fantastic flying ukemi on to creatures in a universe totally in harmony with nature. But, of course, it's all about peace. The battle with Quaritch and the machines has really ended before it has begun.

I feel these issues very keenly because the IAF is now actively planning a demonstration of aikido in China, from August 27 to Sept 1, as part of the Combat Games. China has no grass-roots aikido training, so the spectators will understand nothing about aikido, but they will be Chinese, and heirs to a much longer tradition of martial arts than exists in Japan. Thus, the IAF has to promote aikido as an art that is truly international, but without stressing the importance of the Japanese element (given World War II etc).

All I will say at this point is that the criteria we have established has upset the Aikikai somewhat, since we will require participants who have never met before to perform entirely unrehearsed demonstrations involving the full range of attacks, including kicks and unrehearsed attacks with weapons. The participants must be under 40 years of age and cannot be above 4th dan in rank (which rules out 'no touch' shihans). So the kind of demonstration that Mr Takeda showed will be quite impossible.

However, the question, 'What is the point of an aikido demonstration?', is valid and has been discussed before in these forums.

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Ahmad, I was quite eager to train with Takeda myself in his Kamakura dojo... until I saw his recent demonstrations. I'm trying to keep an open mind but it is difficult (for me at least) to see the point of demonstrating this kind of movement, particularly in a venue as public as the All-Japan.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 06-10-2010 at 07:39 AM.

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Old 06-10-2010, 08:41 AM   #46
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
As a neutral bystander in this discussion, I second Ahmad's suggestion. You should not take the All-Japan Demonstrations as any indication at all of what a shihan does in his/her own dojo. I have attended the classes of Watanabe Sensei at the Hombu Dojo and they were quite different from what he showed at the All-Japan Demonstration. I have never met Mr Takeda, but I trained for many years with his teacher, Yamaguchi Seigo, and I know very well what he was doing--and not doing. Yamaguchi Sensei never established any official lineage, so there are none who can claim to be doing Yamaguchi's aikido, neither Takeda nor Endo nor Tissier nor Yasuno.
Just from my admittedly limited experience of having attended the last few All Japan Demonstrations, I have noticed that some do make a point of doing in embu what they do in their regular practice. It varies by year though and some dojos and shihans have obviously spent hours rehearsing a "performance". My feeling after seeing and subsequently training with some of these teachers is that I would be surprised if Takeda sensei was any different from the video.

I do agree however that what is being shown in these demonstrations is pitched mainly to other aikidoka. I believe you previously described it as "a gathering of the clans".

Carl
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:52 AM   #47
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

DEAR DR. GOLDSBURY:

Yes, sir, I remember your using the phrase "gathering of the clans" in a previous discussion of the All-Japan demonstration. And perhaps I will not understand the thinking behind this kind of demonstration without more extended exposure to Japanese culture.

A further question would be: is a particular "clan" impervious to any and all reactions that its more esoteric demonstrations might draw from the other clans? Do the other clans preserve a respectful silence about that demonstration? In my country, spirited kibitzing and criticism is more common; polite inscrutability is difficult to achieve around here.

A friend of mine did attend Watanabe's class once, and found to his surprise that it was all kihon waza, solid, with no no-touch throws to be found. To this day, he does not (and I do not) grasp the disconnect between the class and the demonstration/ performance.

best,

RAUL
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:59 AM   #48
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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DEAR DR. GOLDSBURY:

A friend of mine did attend Watanabe's class once, and found to his surprise that it was all kihon waza, solid, with no no-touch throws to be found. To this day, he does not (and I do not) grasp the disconnect between the class and the demonstration/ performance.

best,

RAUL
I've seen Watanabe do no-touch stuff in his regular hombu classes, and kihon as well. As to the Zen Nihon, I'd just like to note that a number of the YouTube videos are from embu other than the Zen Nihon.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-10-2010, 12:45 PM   #49
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

Yes, Chris, one of them was apparently shot in Takeda's own dojo in Kamakura, an embu to mark some anniversary, with Doshu in attendance. So that was a more private occasion than a Zen Nihon, but still, with the founder's grandson and "keeper of the way" present, does Takeda do the demo without wondering how a Doshu might react? Or is the audience's reaction not part of the equation at all and I am missing something important?

After Watanabe did the no-touch throw in class, were the students then expected to get up and try it themselves? Or was it purely for demonstration purposes?

best,

RAUL
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:43 PM   #50
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Re: YouTube: Ki in Aikido? (Y. Takeda sensei demo)

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
After Watanabe did the no-touch throw in class, were the students then expected to get up and try it themselves? Or was it purely for demonstration purposes?
best,
RAUL
Systema does the "No touch videos" as well-with knife training no less. While I agree with Peter, perhaps someone can ask the teachers who do these things why they do them in the first place, and then if they do them privately as well. At least then you have a methodology to discuss instead of the display.
That seems better than guessing, and it might prove interesting as well..
Cheers
Dan
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