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Old 07-11-2010, 06:06 PM   #26
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Donald Plummer wrote: View Post
having rather "XL" wrists from use in other sports, Shot Put, Weight Training, has made it difficult for me to get the full effect of yonkyo, that was until one of my former Sensei decided to let the ENTIRE CLASS try me out for 30 minutes or so at which point he took over and had no problem finding that nerve. We all had a good laugh about it (after I stopped sobbing) and I found a new inspiration for being a better Uke.
What was the inspiration and lesson? What did you learn?
I missed your point.
Dan
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:58 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think I will begin to cover these things in seminars...so that students can just simply just stand there staring at their seniors and teachers.
Other than being involved in an art where many "seniors" simply don't have basic skills, how will that work against people with the same or more basic skills? I guess my problem is that the jin response to incoming forces is sort of limited... that's why Taiji specializes in something else and, from everything I've every heard, read, etc., of Ueshiba's Aikido there is also "no resistance", except for the occasional demo to show the kinds of forces that are at work. The basic forces of 'ki strength' are certainly not what you're supposed to do in response to an incoming attack in Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, and hundreds of other arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:38 PM   #28
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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The basic forces of 'ki strength' are certainly not what you're supposed to do in response to an incoming attack in Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, and hundreds of other arts.
Exactly
Dan
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:09 AM   #29
Daniel Coutts-Smith
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Thanks for the varied and interesting responses everyone. Im always happy to start a conversation!

Im sure as i learn more and my ukemi for yonkyo improves it will become much easier. For now i will use the pain it creates as a tool from which to learn.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:19 AM   #30
DH
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Daniel Coutts-Smith wrote: View Post
Im sure as i learn more and my ukemi for yonkyo improves it will become much easier. For now i will use the pain it creates as a tool from which to learn.
That is both unfortunate and apparently the status quo.
Dan
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:09 PM   #31
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

[quote=Dan Harden;261000]What was the inspiration and lesson? What did you learn?
I missed your point.
Dan[/QUOTE

I suppose what I was getting at was, Perseverence, on both Uke and Nage's part. I needed to have someone work through my resistance so that I could understand the technique and stop using my strength to block. My sensei knew what was going on but wanted everyone to understand that. By letting everyone try it on me and eventually succeed he was teaching us all not to quit on a technique just because it was difficult to master. I was sore for a few days but still benefit from that lesson today.

"of all the things I've lost, I ,miss my mind the most..."-mushin-
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:22 AM   #32
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

To answer the question for the sake of the person asking, I have to say the following could be helpful.

Pain is feedback. It is a signal from a sensor telling us information. If for instance you touch a hot cup of coffee you know it. It motivates us to move away from damaging ourselves, or tells us what we are doing is damaging. Pain controls us. We move from pain and the source of it. In martial arts it tells us what we are doing right and what we are doing wrong. Right might be getting compliance. Wrong or what we think is wrong would be right. Like if we do a waza and the result on our training partner is too much to bear that tells us we are going to get compliance when used on the street. Wrong if your philosophy of no or little pain is practiced in the dojo. It tells us to move away and that can lead to effective escapes. Pain gives us information whether we give it or receive it. We shouldn't discount this valuable learning aid.

I don't think you should develop a tolerance per se. Pain has a purpose, and a good one. Can you then learn to resist Yonkyo and prevent the resulting pain instead? Yes, against most people. That is if you are strong enough to resist it, or it is done poorly it can be resist even done by a strong person to a weaker person. You can resist through muscle tension most of the time done my most average people. Not so much tension that it interferes with your partner's execution of the technique. But enough to protect the joints and wrists from the technique to a degree better than if no tension was used. It essentially stops someone from going too far with the technique that tissue damage results. But the best way is to tell your training partner to go easy.

Going easy doesn't mean your partner can't receive full benefit from practicing Yonkyo without fully applying pain. It doesn't mean to comply and go with it like a wet noodle. It simply means control. Learning control, which pain teaches, is the most valuable learning tool of any Aikido technique. Ideally, I would think, is to apply just the right about of technique to get compliance. A finite attribute and distinction concerning Aikido.

In a nutshell, you can work up to yonkyo being put on fully. But until then gradually work up to taking on more and more application of the technique via muscle tension. Remember pain is a valuable teacher providing feedback and other information. Have you training partners go easy on you work into developing greater muscle tension to prevent your partner from hurting if they go all the way. Have your partner slow down while doing the technique, practicing control, and form among other things.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by Buck : 07-13-2010 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:42 AM   #33
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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In a nutshell, you can work up to yonkyo being put on fully. But until then gradually work up to taking on more and more application of the technique via muscle tension.
Muscle tension as a way to counter? i would have thought the opposite is needed. isn't part of martial art training to control the fight/flight instincts, in which pain may trigger it, and in turn trigger muscle tension which counters our ability to move freely, not to mention stop our ability to make our body coherent, one unit? doesn't pain also forces us to focus on the pain spot; thus gives us tunnel vision where we are no longer able to see other options?

personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach. folks who tried the pain compliant on me will end up with a kick or a knee in the ribs for their trouble. oh wait, this is aikido. we are not suppose to kick or knee. damn!
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:08 AM   #34
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Muscle tension as a way to counter? i would have thought the opposite is needed. isn't part of martial art training to control the fight/flight instincts, in which pain may trigger it, and in turn trigger muscle tension which counters our ability to move freely, not to mention stop our ability to make our body coherent, one unit? doesn't pain also forces us to focus on the pain spot; thus gives us tunnel vision where we are no longer able to see other options?

personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach. folks who tried the pain compliant on me will end up with a kick or a knee in the ribs for their trouble. oh wait, this is aikido. we are not suppose to kick or knee. damn!
Allow me to clarify. The original question dealt with the technique being painful and not a counter or "pain compliant approach." Which are other good topics to be discussed. Muscle tension is one way to protect against pain experienced during practicing of the technique. A certain amount of muscle tension in the limb and area of application is to protect against the amount of pain experienced. Thus being a way to control the pain felt from Yonkyo. Muscle tension isn't the only way to ease pain. Another way, of course, is to tap out the second you feel pain.

Experiencing pain in this application can also provide us with information and feedback. Feeling no pain at all while practicing the technique limits or provides no information or feedback during the practice experience. That is simply going through the motions or walking through it squelches a great deal of feedback and information about the technique. Too much pain of course is damaging and defeats the purpose of the learning process. Point being pain isn't a bad thing it is very useful in the right amounts.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:26 AM   #35
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

This is some of the worst advice I have ever heard. It will virtually assure a continuation of a low level approach to Aikido. What I was suggesting as the cancellation of pain and power at the same time as controlling the person putting force into you.
Imagine....aiki...being used to cancel out jujutsu...what a thought!
Dan
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:18 PM   #36
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Allow me to clarify. The original question dealt with the technique being painful and not a counter or "pain compliant approach." Which are other good topics to be discussed. Muscle tension is one way to protect against pain experienced during practicing of the technique. A certain amount of muscle tension in the limb and area of application is to protect against the amount of pain experienced. Thus being a way to control the pain felt from Yonkyo. Muscle tension isn't the only way to ease pain. Another way, of course, is to tap out the second you feel pain.

Experiencing pain in this application can also provide us with information and feedback. Feeling no pain at all while practicing the technique limits or provides no information or feedback during the practice experience. That is simply going through the motions or walking through it squelches a great deal of feedback and information about the technique. Too much pain of course is damaging and defeats the purpose of the learning process. Point being pain isn't a bad thing it is very useful in the right amounts.
Buck, how do you use muscle tension to ease pain? I've always felt that when I added tension I increased the pain. My best method for reducing pain was always to relax and engage my center as much as possible.

As for the OP, my best guess is to really enter with the part of your forearm that aite's palm chakra touches (or would touch, based on some versions I've seen), particularly as the fingers begin to close around you. Even if I'm still being controlled, I could usually take away the sting pretty well in most cases.

Also, as a side-note: what's the difference between katate tori and yonkyo? Is it the emphasis on what part of the palm is driving the suppression? At some point I developed the sense that any time I'm trying "katate tori," I'm trying some form of yonkyo.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:39 PM   #37
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

I also want to say that Yonkyo being a jujitsu technique from one of the jujitsu styles O'Sensei learned, it is designed to be disabling. It is suppose to be excruciatingly painful and damaging. Making the opponent unable to fight back and to facilitate the option of kill of the opponent. When I speak of design I am referring to the original combat design outside of the philosophy of Aikido. I hope by give a background to the technique will help understand why it is such a painful technique even within Aikido.

Yonkyo, as a combat technique, if done properly and with experience prevents any counters. It is designed like many other legitimate jujitsu techniques to bring down an enemy quickly preventing any counters. The application is to be done with combat intentions with experienced execution to damage the opponent. When done as initially designed Yonkyo destroys the wrist and elbow joints, and dislocates the shoulder. It is also considered the enemy is taken by surprise not knowing what is coming. The enemy doesn't have a working knowledge of the technique, and that is the first step in stopping a counter. You can't counter what you don't understand effectively.

The next phase is inflicting allot of pain through damaging the wrist joint. Then as you move through the technique there is damage to the elbow joint. Finally, there is the dislocation of the shoulder. All phases of the technique are done with the assumption the enemy is attempting a counter. And damaging the joints resulting in allot of pain denies any thoughts and attempts to counter.

Yonkyo is designed to be devastating to the enemy and painful. Thereby preventing any counters with each stage of the technique placing the body in positions that are physically difficult to counter sucessfully. All within the perimeters of Japanese combat this means the counter to Yonkyo would not be a kick or punch, but rather to stab or cut with a sword.

Yonkyo even within Aikido is painful. It is a very effective technique designed to take control of the opponents body in such away that effective counters are not possible. That is why when it is practiced in the dojo it should be done with care and attention to its mechanics.

I think cooperation-not going all out -is needed to learn the mechanics and proper form to execute the technique properly as intended. As well as consideration for the safety of the training partner. Cooperation is not the same as being overly and unnecessarily compliant.

Yonkyo because of its design and potential for damaging the body if practiced correctly is going so have some degree of pain and discomfort. Honestly, I don't know of any Aikido technique or pin that isn't going to be painless. Therefore, there are ways to minimize pain. For examples, such as using some muscle tension to protect the forces upon the limb. Or not fully applying the technique to where it is too painful and damaging.

Side comment: The dojo is a place of learning and it isn't the street. And yea, by default being in the dojo means practice and repetition it is easy to counter etc. The technique is done in a controlled learning environment. And under these conditions because you know what is coming, and there is no life and death combat threats against anyone, it is easy to take advantage of the learning environment and situation capitalizing on it. It would be like while someone is practicing free throws you run up and steal the ball, dunk it at the other end of the court, then say you scored on them. Practice is to work things out and make improvements.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:29 PM   #38
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Buck, no offense, but it really reads like you're just making things up because you like the sound of them in your head.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:48 PM   #39
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Buck, how do you use muscle tension to ease pain? I've always felt that when I added tension I increased the pain. My best method for reducing pain was always to relax and engage my center as much as possible.

As for the OP, my best guess is to really enter with the part of your forearm that aite's palm chakra touches (or would touch, based on some versions I've seen), particularly as the fingers begin to close around you. Even if I'm still being controlled, I could usually take away the sting pretty well in most cases.

Also, as a side-note: what's the difference between katate tori and yonkyo? Is it the emphasis on what part of the palm is driving the suppression? At some point I developed the sense that any time I'm trying "katate tori," I'm trying some form of yonkyo.
Matt that is true, and I am glad you brought that up. Am to going to address your question to the general form.

Yes, too much muscle resistance via tension works in favor of the Shi. If you use force to counter Yonkyo, resisting against the technique in the hands of an experienced Shi the Uke is basically screwed. Unless they can completely resist the waza. In this case the waza fails and not pain is experience. I believe that is considered within the design of Yonkyo that resistance is expected and is countered through the mechanical design and application of the waza. That resistance would be a natural reaction to resist the movement and forces by attempting to muscle out of the technique, thereby, being the most basic and reactive counter that work against the opponent.

What I am saying muscle tension enough to protect from damage and increased pain caused by Yonkyo. Naturally, if too much tension is felt by the Shi the natural reaction then is to apply the technique vigorously due to the perceived resistance. To avoid that besides understanding and cooperation, is to contract the hand and wrist muscles (providing tension) and not resist with muscle the technique. A very basic example outside the context of the technique is to make a fist. The muscles are tense but not resisting any forces. The slighted tensed muscles protect the joint, to some extent reducing pain instead of experiencing the opposite and feeling greater pain. Also by placing some tension in the limb keeps the joints from being overly stressed and staying properly aligned. But as you said, too much tension will allow for better orientation of the Uke's arm providing an advantage to the Shi preforming the technique.

It can be argue any resistance or tension will aid the Shi in preforming the waza more effectively against the Uke. That is a valid argument which I will not refute. Yet no resistance will also aid the Shi in performing the waza effectively.

When practicing the Yonkyo muscle tension, not resistance, will reduce some of the pain from joint and tissue pain. It will protect the joints and tissues, even though it will aid the Shi in performing the waza. Not applying any muscle tension/contracting the muscles- not using muscle tension and contraction to resist the waza- does also result in pain. But again, the dojo is a place of learning.

Pain is an important signal to the brain that provides us information concerning our bodies. Sometimes if we concentrate, such as on tensing up our muscles the frequency of the signal, how that signal is received, or interrupting that signal means reduction of pain. We also have to consider the effectiveness of no matter what we do is also dictated by the number of pain receptors that vary from person to person. And the other factors that make some people more pain tolerant then others. Basically, some people will always, no matter what they do, will find the pain unbearable. Where others will be able to better tolerate the pain. That either Matt or my suggestion will not work for everyone. My suggestion will work for some and will be ineffective for others who find Matt's suggestion effective. For some nothing will work. But that was my suggestion was to provide some muscle tension a the point of application.

Another suggestion maybe to move ahead of the technique and not behind it. Being ahead of the applied forces rather than behind them thus experiencing all the applied forces. But this again we need to consider the effects it has on the learning process.

Thanks Matt.

Last edited by Buck : 07-13-2010 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:29 PM   #40
phitruong
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Yonkyo is designed to be devastating to the enemy and painful. Thereby preventing any counters with each stage of the technique placing the body in positions that are physically difficult to counter sucessfully. All within the perimeters of Japanese combat this means the counter to Yonkyo would not be a kick or punch, but rather to stab or cut with a sword.
huh? if i am armed with a sword, i am pretty sure i wanted to wear them leather arm braces as well to prevent cuts to my wrists and forearms. how you plan to use pain on that? if i can counter with sword cut, i am pretty sure i can kick you to kingdom come; besides, your arms attached to mine, in order to apply yonkyo, so i know exactly where you are, even with my eyes closed.

i'll be the first to admit ignorance in the usage of yonkyo. if someone can tell me why yonkyo at all, i am all ear.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:23 PM   #41
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Another suggestion maybe to move ahead of the technique and not behind it. Being ahead of the applied forces rather than behind them thus experiencing all the applied forces. But this again we need to consider the effects it has on the learning process.
There has been some great suggestions made by many Aikidoka in this thread that clearly have experience with this technique, besides me. Point being my suggestions are just adding to that pot of ways to deal with pain for the readers who also find Yonkyo unbearable. The purpose then so they may benefit from this thread.

Like I said above this also is a means of avoiding pain. How that effects the learning of the technique or is considered overtly complying with the technique. That is ok if that is understood that is what is going to take place during the practice of the technique between both parties. For the purpose to avoid pain or to accustom someone to the pain of the technique. Being ahead of the pain, or the technique can help. It is a means to reduce pain. Again we have to consider that a technique can be applied up to 50xs or more times a class. That is allot of wear and tear on the body in one class. That I think is really the issue here, on how to reduce the pain of the technique for those not accustom to it.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:42 PM   #42
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Well just for laughs I did it again tonight with another aikido guy from a different organization. Took about 10 minutes....no more yonkyo pain. Hell, he's on his way to no more yonkyo applied on him...period!
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.
Dan
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:36 AM   #43
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.
I think you have a point there Dan!

I have no idea how to cancel out yonkyo in the way you describe - I can do it a different way but my way is more down to mental toughness and it doesn't remove all the pain

However, last night I figured out how to cancel out nikyo Sensei's Sensei has been doing this for some time, but he doesn't teach it, he waits for us to figure it out for ourselves. It took my Sensei a year to work it out from experiencing it with his Sensei. It's taken me 6 months from experiencing it with my Sensei. The helpful clue Sensei gave last night was that you have to make your centre 'disappear' - even though it's still facing tori and there is still a connection through your arm (it doesn't go flop and it doesn't tense up either)

The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared...

Ruth
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:43 AM   #44
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared...

Ruth
Good luck with that. I can't nikkyo any of my peers at our dojo any more. Only people with a significantly smaller amount of experience.

kvaak
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:58 AM   #45
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

So, if you're thinking of aikido (the way of aiki) training as partially a means of capturing another's center on contact (any point of contact) via fitting in appropriately (ukemi) . . then in theory ANY technique should be an opportunity to practice this thing (the way of aiki) via the "shape" constraints of that technique.

In the case of yonkyu, it's a spiraling downward motion . . what's to be learned by giving up your center so someone can practice taking it? What's to be learned by hiding your center so someone has to worker to find and exploit it? What's to be learned by capturing their center when they touch you so that their efforts to apply a lock result in them pushing themselves away or putting themselves into a bad position that you can then exploit?

And so on and so on . .

And realistically none of this *has* to be done by cranking on someone's joints to the point of pain - though there is something to be said for the winding aspects being a kind of conditioning of the connective tissues - but if you aren't learning the way-of-aiki then it's only going to lead you so far.

But to that end, even if the "internal" training aspects are not important at your dojo, then the primary focus should be breaking the other person's balance . . pain compliance is really unreliable.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:01 AM   #46
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
I never do yonkyo with kyusho application...I just go for the physiological control point rather than pain compliance.
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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach.
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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
...the primary focus should be breaking the other person's balance . . pain compliance is really unreliable.

Adam and Phi and Budd are exactly right - yonkyo is a joint technique not a pressure point technique.

It works on the uke's centre not on the forearm. The uke's balance is taken away.

If it's done correctly it is not possible for the uke to stop the elbow going right through the face.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
These sorts of standing joint locks don't work on properly trained aiki adepts.
We don't do standing techniques in aikido, Dan. We do moving techniques.

On the pain point real aikido doesn't hurt. It's not supposed to. It only hurts if you are doing it wrong. The joint techniques in aikido are control techniques which are only painful if the uke doesn't want to follow and tries to escape.

Last edited by niall : 07-14-2010 at 09:12 AM.

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Old 07-14-2010, 10:28 AM   #47
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

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Well just for laughs I did it again tonight with another aikido guy from a different organization. Took about 10 minutes....no more yonkyo pain. Hell, he's on his way to no more yonkyo applied on him...period!
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.
Dan
You have such superficial knowledge about aikido and still coming to aikido forum to speak badly about our teachers. What a poor behavior.
You are example for your students. One day, they will speak badly about you. You taught them how to behave.

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Old 07-14-2010, 11:20 AM   #48
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

R
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You have such superficial knowledge about aikido and still coming to aikido forum to speak badly about our teachers. What a poor behavior.
You are example for your students. One day, they will speak badly about you. You taught them how to behave.
I don't think that is accurate. I have spoken highly of certain teachers and of certain approaches. What I said above is not only true it is the opinion of about a dozen teachers in the art whom I know and train with.
I wonder if you can find Aikido teachers who I train with who will state I have a superficial understanding. If you disagree with points I've raised. ..state them. That's better than attacking me.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-14-2010 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:37 PM   #49
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Quote:
Daniel Coutts-Smith wrote: View Post
Hey fellow Aikidoka,

Every time i take Ukemi for Yonkyo the pain is unbearable... most techniques you can relax and feel the pain and tap before its too much, but Yonkyo the pain is so sudden and sharp that i clench up and can barely tap.

I have heard that it should be used almost as an atemi, i can see how it would be effective as such.

Anyway my questions are:
Do you think i will begin to build up a tolerance to it?
Was it this bad for everyone when they first started to take ukemi for it, or am i just very susceptible?

Arigato Goziamasu in advance,
Daniel.
To answer the question now directly with my opinion. The question was, there is pain while taking ukemi and is unbearable. Based on all the background information I provided I would say, assuming the pain is not from hitting the ground. That is falling is painless it is hitting the ground that hurts. Rather the mechanics of the technique make it painful. Yonkyo's original design was to damage the enemy's body to prevent counters and to defeat the enemy. Allot of that pain may have to do with the way you fall, how your body is aligned during the fall.

The other thing is there is so many variations on Yonkyo. I seen it done with only one hand and called Yonkyo as an example. Because we can't see Daniel as uke like on a vid, we don't really know enough accurately help. He could be taking ukemi late, or off-line resulting in excessive pain for him. This is along Naill's point that we are synced in. That moving away from the technique in such a way will cause pain. For me it increases the pain, which was calculated in the original design of Yonkyo to happen. The jujitsu originator(s) I think understood, from experience, humans naturally, unless otherwise trained, move away from the source of pain.

Thereby, they designed the waza based on that information. You try to escape or resist and your more screwed than if you don't. That is you fall away from the waza in such a way it increase the pain. Proper Yonkyo is painful in any direction if you try to resist or escape. I am not saying Yonkyo can't fail. Am speaking design theory and how that relates to pain.

I would guess Daniel's unbearable pain is resulting from how he taking ukemi that works to the benefit of the purpose of the waza as a jujitsu result. That is the increased pain may be do to the manner in which he is taking ukemi.

I would also think the Shi is either doing the waza very well or very poorly. Again we don't know that information. Therefore, I would say in the context of all I have said, that as time goes on, and so does the pain, Daniel will take ukemi in such a way that will elevate some of the pain to a point where it is bearable under both said conditions. It just shows how important ukemi is to Aikido.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:59 PM   #50
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Re: Yonkyo is unbearable

Daniel,

FWIW.

First, don't be concerned that yonkyo will damage your joints or nerves -- it probably won't. Although one time after class I did wonder how I was supposed to keep hold of the steering wheel of my car....

Second, like a lot of other people, I found it hurt less over time (and yes, I still have full feeling in my wrists and hands).

Third, without suggesting its the "best" or "only" way, over time if you learn to allow the movement of the technique to go through your center, and move with it, you can at least delay any discomfort until the pin, when nage should be able to modulate the amount of pressure to what's necessary. This isn't about taking a quick dive, but letting the force go through your center rather than having it localized around the nerve.

Fourth, I don't recommend "tensing" the arm. This tends, IME, to localize the stimulus at the same time it prevents involving the center.

Out of curiosity -- have you spoken to you teacher about this problem? The way your school handles the situation is probably what you should try to learn first.

YMMV

Regards

David Henderson
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