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Old 06-22-2010, 12:11 PM   #1
Ketsan
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Weird bow

I've seen a couple of teachers, including Chiba Sensei make this odd bow at the end of demonstrating. From a standing position they literally bend down and touch the floor with one hand.

Does anyone have any idea where this comes from or what it's about?
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:40 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Weird bow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yiBehK4vBU
Like here at 0:30?

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Old 06-22-2010, 12:52 PM   #3
Rob Watson
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Re: Weird bow

Or just with one hand touching the mat ... Shibata does that too. I seem to have picked it up too .... I'm just too lazy to drop for a full seated formal bow. I mean efficient ... not lazy.

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Old 06-22-2010, 01:03 PM   #4
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Or just with one hand touching the mat ... Shibata does that too. I seem to have picked it up too .... I'm just too lazy to drop for a full seated formal bow. I mean efficient ... not lazy.
Shibata trained under Chiba though, If I'm remembering correctly.

MM
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #5
Mark Uttech
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Re: Weird bow

Onegaishimasu. I have seen films of other sensei doing that type of bow at seminars. Could be a timesaver, if nothing else...

In gassho,

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Old 06-22-2010, 02:54 PM   #6
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Does anyone have any idea where this comes from or what it's about?
kenjutsu?
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:21 PM   #7
nekobaka
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Re: Weird bow

never seen in during the 13 years I've lived in Japan, probably something in that line of shihan, definitely just a lazy bow in my opinion. most of the shihan I see just do a standing bow or a head nod.
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:25 PM   #8
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Re: Weird bow

Qué falta de conocimiento.
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Old 06-22-2010, 06:13 PM   #9
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Weird bow

I don't think it was a bow. Looked to me more like he was just stretching his legs in a deep horse stance.

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Old 06-22-2010, 06:22 PM   #10
David Orange
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
I don't think it was a bow. Looked to me more like he was just stretching his legs in a deep horse stance.
Really looked a lot like a sumo gesture, like they do at the beginning of the match. But it does look more like a stretch than a bow...and maybe the OP had seen something similar...

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Old 06-22-2010, 09:34 PM   #11
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Re: Weird bow

I do stretches like that a lot....looked like he was "working out a kink," so to speak. As far as bows go, that's a lot more effort than tachirei and it wouldn't make sense for him to go to zarei in that situation. But it is a bit confusing with the uke and other students all bowing simultaneous. Maybe they saw him do that and got confused and bowed.

Which brings me to a point for another thread....people misinterpreting what teacher is doing as how technique should be done when teacher was doing it that way out of necessity. I definitely have stories of this...but too off topic. Alex, is this what you think may have happened, or are you speaking of something different than what Matthew San posted/linked?

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Old 06-23-2010, 06:13 AM   #12
Ketsan
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Not quite. Usually it's done with one hand; but that kind of thing.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:20 AM   #13
Ketsan
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Alex, is this what you think may have happened, or are you speaking of something different than what Matthew San posted/linked?
No it's a habbit I've noticed over the years from some teachers in Chiba's line where at the end of demonstrating they basically do what Chiba did in the video only they touch the mat with one hand.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:25 AM   #14
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Re: Weird bow

I think it's a shorthand version of a kenjutsu bow as Carsten suggested. Here's one example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xccorooux6A (at 0.36). I don't think that a kenjutsu sensei would be very impressed though.

Last edited by niall : 06-23-2010 at 07:29 AM.

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Old 06-23-2010, 08:05 AM   #15
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Weird bow

A few teachers do it. Some don't bow at all after a demo to the class. If you bow to the teacher after a demo then by rights he should be at your level to bow back unless he is of such exalted rank you are inferior or he is superior as in a lord or master. I ask my uke to stand and bow if they wish because if they sit I got to and I don't want to anymore, it hurts and hinders my mobility. I know a few other 7 and 8th dans who give me the same reason. Maybe not the case for all but it is for some.

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Old 06-23-2010, 08:47 AM   #16
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I think it's a shorthand version of a kenjutsu bow as Carsten suggested.
What, exactly, is "a kenjutsu bow"? Every ryu has its own preferred way of doing things.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:18 AM   #17
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Re: Weird bow

A kenjutsu bow is a bow used in kenjutsu as opposed to another budo. The example I gave was from Shinkage Ryu. Here is another example from Itto Ryu showing a similar bow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBmi0yjeRr0 at about 9.11.
So since a similar bow appears in two discrete representative styles I think it's certainly possible that it's a kenjutsu bow.

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Old 06-23-2010, 10:32 AM   #18
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
kenjutsu?
This may well be a variation on the bow used by Kashima exponents.Its is quick efficient and safe to use in a crowded environment.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:23 AM   #19
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Re: Weird bow

interesting.

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Old 06-23-2010, 11:46 AM   #20
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
What, exactly, is "a kenjutsu bow"? Every ryu has its own preferred way of doing things.
I was going to say, I've seen more variation than similarities as I have been blessed to see various groups practice. When in Rome comes to mind... Shrug.

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Old 06-23-2010, 11:53 AM   #21
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
I ask my uke to stand and bow if they wish because if they sit I got to and I don't want to anymore, it hurts and hinders my mobility. I know a few other 7 and 8th dans who give me the same reason. Maybe not the case for all but it is for some.
Yeah, I just recently pulled a newly minted Yudansha aside to let him know that etiquette also involves being aware of how you bow can affect the other person, especially those with older, damaged knees and backs. He had been down in seiza as the shihan was explaining a point. The Shihan told everyone to practice and went to bow to his uke only to see him in seiza still. So he got down into seiza himself and bowed. Knowing he is suffering from a serious knee injury just watching it made my knees hurt.

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Old 06-23-2010, 01:56 PM   #22
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Re: Weird bow

Hmmm...I've always felt in my reishisi that it isn't appropriate to bow to someone who is standing/sitting opposite myself...as long as the depth/length of bow is appropriate to rank. But that's just me...I've never sought clarification on that one and no one's said anything to me when I've done, for lack of a better word, hamni hamdachi bowing to my standing sensei. I always figured its more respectful to stay seated when sensei is bowing to have students practice what he showed rather than have him wait for me to stand back up and properly bow in return. Again, that's just me....I'll ask in class next time.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:49 PM   #23
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
This may well be a variation on the bow used by Kashima exponents.
Thats what I thought.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:44 PM   #24
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Thats what I thought.
As a matter of fact I use this bow virtually all the time.I am a Birankai International teacher.Never thought of asking Chiba Sensei why he does this particular bow.Never gave it any real thought.
Joe.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:11 PM   #25
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Re: Weird bow

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
A kenjutsu bow is a bow used in kenjutsu as opposed to another budo. The example I gave was from Shinkage Ryu. Here is another example from Itto Ryu showing a similar bow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBmi0yjeRr0 at about 9.11.
So since a similar bow appears in two discrete representative styles I think it's certainly possible that it's a kenjutsu bow.
Those bows aren't very similar. The Shinkage Ryu bow is done from seiza with the fists touching the floor outside the knees. The Hokushin Itto Ryu one is done from sonkyo with the finger tips touching the floor inside the thighs. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu does a different bow. Jigen Ryu does something else. Bokuden Ryu does yet another thing. Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu does still another. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu often demonstrates without a bow between uchidachi and shidachi. You can often tell which school you're watching just by the reishiki they start with.

Kentokuseisei
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