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Old 05-13-2010, 08:13 AM   #1
Mikemac
 
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Need some pointers on Tenkan

I was learning a move involving Tenkan when we switched partners. I was paired with someone much bigger and stronger than I using Morote dori (Two hands grabbing one hand/wrist). He's pretty rigid and my Tenkan was difficult to execute. This was actually an eye opener for me.

Can anyone else here share a similar experience and advise how to make my Tenkan effective with a stronger opponent?
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:27 AM   #2
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

What was on your mind when you decided to move? If you had a fighting mind, your arm/hand and maybe your body is tense. If you tense up, you are giving him something to collide with or something to fight with. He's bigger/stronger, naturally he'll win all the time. Relax and don't tense up, think he's your friend and when you decide to move, don't think you will move him, instead, think let's move together. I'ts easier said than done, I know, but try it anyway. Good luck.

Plus Ki
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:53 AM   #3
Mikemac
 
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

I was actually thinking "Hey! this guy ain't budging!"

Should my hand be positioned differently or moved lower to compensate for the weight?
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:30 AM   #4
niall
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Larry's advice is great. A couple of additional things:

First, there's a small physics point that might be helpful to remember. The uke is attacking with two arms against one. But if you relax as Larry said and move with your hips, not your arm, the uke's two arms - however strong - will be much weaker than your trunk and you can move easily.

Second, don't let your mind get stuck on the point(s) where you are being gripped.

Third, don't look at the uke - look in the direction you want to move.

Great question, Michael.

Last edited by niall : 05-13-2010 at 09:35 AM.

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Old 05-13-2010, 09:34 AM   #5
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

You need to connect with uke's center from the very beginning of your tenkan movement. Otherwise you're just wrestling against his grip or you're just turning around without affecting uke.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:38 AM   #6
Abasan
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Try, thinking of joining your hands to your uke's hands instead of thinking they are 2 separate entities.

Lower your center not your hands to connect.

Don't move into uke when going into tenkan. Move light.

Lastly, think about extending ki first in one direction, then tenkan and extend to the other direction.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:12 AM   #7
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Connect to the center.
Take balance.
Move as one unit.
Relax and breathe.
Think (project and extend) through.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:42 AM   #8
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
I was learning a move involving Tenkan when we switched partners. I was paired with someone much bigger and stronger than I using Morote dori (Two hands grabbing one hand/wrist). He's pretty rigid and my Tenkan was difficult to execute. This was actually an eye opener for me.

Can anyone else here share a similar experience and advise how to make my Tenkan effective with a stronger opponent?
In the following link notice the relative position of Saito Sensei's elbow to his hand and to ukes grip. At first Saito's fingers are pointing down and his elbow is higher than his hand. After lowering his center his elbow is lower than his hand and his fingers are pointing up.

It is not a contest of your one arm against your opponents two arms. It is the movement of your center with your whole body moving as one.

Your initial movement is not to resist uke but to position yourself and break his balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgIcPJYY9Qs

David
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:39 AM   #9
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

God gives us stiff uke for our own good. I figured this one out recently.

MM
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:54 PM   #10
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

This is a good time to start learning/playing with angles. Play around with moving your extend arm in different angles. The goal is trying to find out where uke's grip is the weakest or where you like to move. Once you get this, your tenkan should become much easier. Just remember, the angle that you find on this uke could be totally different on another uke.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:02 PM   #11
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the following link notice the relative position of Saito Sensei's elbow to his hand and to ukes grip. At first Saito's fingers are pointing down and his elbow is higher than his hand. After lowering his center his elbow is lower than his hand and his fingers are pointing up.

It is not a contest of your one arm against your opponents two arms. It is the movement of your center with your whole body moving as one.

Your initial movement is not to resist uke but to position yourself and break his balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgIcPJYY9Qs

David
This movement usually isn't called tenkan. Watch his legs. Saito Shihan rotates on the balls of the feet to face the same direction (kaiten). But if the OP is trying kokyunage from a solid morote, it's the basic way of doing it (tenkan is better in ki-no-nagare).

Carl
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:20 PM   #12
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
This movement usually isn't called tenkan. Watch his legs. Saito Shihan rotates on the balls of the feet to face the same direction (kaiten). But if the OP is trying kokyunage from a solid morote, it's the basic way of doing it (tenkan is better in ki-no-nagare).

Carl
The important thing to note in the link is the movement of the center down with whole body connection to lower his center and the change of angle of his arm to off balance uke.

David
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:25 PM   #13
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

This is good stuff. Keep it coming....Thanks!

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Old 05-13-2010, 06:20 PM   #14
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The important thing to note in the link is the movement of the center down with whole body connection to lower his center and the change of angle of his arm to off balance uke.
Agreed. I think you also made a good point here:

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
It is not a contest of your one arm against your opponents two arms. It is the movement of your center with your whole body moving as one.
There is a temptation to use muscle power to move the grabbed area, but as David said, it is your centre that should move.

Carl
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:55 PM   #15
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Kick him in the knee. That'll loosen up that grip some.

(currently reading The Sad Tale of the Brothers Grossbart)
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:20 PM   #16
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Ikeda sensei had us working on this attack at the last seminar. He had us thinking about first projecting energy and connecting to the outside shoulder then to shoulder of the forward arm then execute the tenkan. A super cool excercise but not easy to put into writing. You have to feel it I think to really begin to get it. Even with the katatetori grab this works really well ,when you can find the connections.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:41 AM   #17
Joe Bowen
 
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Wink Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

These are all great suggestions, do not discount any of them. Here's a very simple thing you can do that will have an impact on your tenkan which most people don't realize if their doing it or not.

BEND YOUR FRONT KNEE.

Many folks start their tenkan motion with almost a straight leg, and don't even realize it. Do this one simple thing and it will enable you to do everything else that everyone is telling you. Without the bent front knee, all else fails.....
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:00 AM   #18
Amir Krause
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Without seeing and feeling, the only advices I could give are very general:

Be soft
keep your center of balance low
Move your body and let the hand follow

And Finally: Ask your Sensei - he is there, on the spot, he can see your actions and mistakes, he can also see your Uke

Amir
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #19
Mikemac
 
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Yes....Sensei has shown me a way to alter the beginning to get the advantage. He had me direct my wrist in a slight downward direction in the start.

I also combined everyone's advice with a test at the gym. I use the cable weight with a single grip and made sure to move my hips and center BEFORE moving my arm. It's a great way to feel the difference. The weight just follows using this technique.

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Old 05-17-2010, 05:26 PM   #20
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

If your partner (not opponent) is stopping you from moving then its an unproductive learning environment. Instead uke should allow you to move and through the grip you can feel the areas that need to be improved on.

Assuming its a clan based martial art and that tomorrow we all go to battle with the other clan over the hill,in the dojo we need to help each other get as good at the art as quickly as we can rather than competing

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
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Old 08-28-2010, 02:35 AM   #21
WilliB
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Re: Need some pointers on Tenkan

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the following link notice the relative position of Saito Sensei's elbow to his hand and to ukes grip. At first Saito's fingers are pointing down and his elbow is higher than his hand. After lowering his center his elbow is lower than his hand and his fingers are pointing up.

It is not a contest of your one arm against your opponents two arms. It is the movement of your center with your whole body moving as one.

Your initial movement is not to resist uke but to position yourself and break his balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgIcPJYY9Qs

David
I think he is demonstrating what other people here have said: It is not the power of the arm, it is the power if of the body. Fundamental concept in this art, but sometimes hard to get into your system. Nice video.
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