Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-15-2002, 10:49 AM   #1
sam sneed
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
judo vs aikido

I was told that acheiving a high rank (shodan) is easier (takes less time) than in aikido because aikido has techniques that are harder to master. Does this have any merit?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 11:56 AM   #2
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
I have never studied Judo, but from the looks of it, and what I have read, it would seem so. Although as most things go in the MA world, alot depends on you, your instructor, and how easy they give out Shodan ranks

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 12:06 PM   #3
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: judo vs aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by sam sneed
I was told that acheiving a high rank (shodan) is easier (takes less time) than in aikido because aikido has techniques that are harder to master. Does this have any merit?
First off, shodan (sho=first, dan=level) is not a high rank. It's the first rank and is little more than a serious beginner.

In SOME aikido dojo (seems more common here int he West), shodan seems to be inflated and over-valued.

Having done a little of both, I'll venture that there's no good reason a shodan in aikido should take any longer than one in judo. Aikido techniques are no harder to master than _good_ judo techniques.

In my not very humble opinion, shodan in most budo should be somewhere between 2 and 4 years or regular, fairly diligent and dedicated training. If it is, the rank is being over-rated (Ours is better, you see, it goes to 11!).

All that being said, I'm strongly in favor of not doing ranks at all. In my dojo, you're either a student or a teacher.

I believe the over-inflated requirements for rank are because of many factors, but two of the chief are 'Westerners can never understand the subtleties of budo so quickly' and 'Our system is SO much better, it takes SO much longer to just make shodan!'

Both are bull-puckey -- again, IMNSHO.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Chuck

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 12:29 PM   #4
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
I disagree with the premise, namely that if it takes longer to earn shodan in art X it's techniques are more difficult.

Quote:
Although as most things go in the MA world, alot depends on you, your instructor, and how easy they give out Shodan ranks
Judo rank is not given out. My understanding is the standards of rank are quite clear. There are 3 main judo groups in the USA: USJA, USJI and USJF. The next largest judo group, AAU, does not award rank. Within each organization, the testing requirements are identical, with point requirements (earned in shiai) --- these are not "guidelines". If the procedure is not followed, any awarded rank is worthless (not legit). Rank awarded by any other judo organization is not recognized by the National Governing Body, the Continental Union or the International Judo Federation, period.

Further with judo, a shodan is certainly not a high rank. Also, all judo shodan's are NOT created equal. Having randori'ed and competed with judo players of differing levels, I can say with certainty that the shodan from the three-times-a-week Judo school is nowhere near the level of the regional judo champ, and both are throwing dummies for a national level player.

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 01:01 PM   #5
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Re: Re: judo vs aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by LOEP
I believe the over-inflated requirements for rank are because of many factors, but two of the chief are 'Westerners can never understand the subtleties of budo so quickly' and 'Our system is SO much better, it takes SO much longer to just make shodan!'
You know what the saddest part of that is, it's usually the dumbass, decadent, evil Westerners who say and think that. Even worse, in none of our standard sports or the like do we even have anything like rank. We have levels for competitive purposes but rank is distinctly a martial arts thing.

If I'm missing something in regards to the latter comment please let me know but I can't think of anything here in the US of a similar caliber as the martial arts that uses rank.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 01:23 PM   #6
sam sneed
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
my friend rank was always a part of the martial arts and going the "higher" way can only be achieved if you are accomplished at some level
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 01:30 PM   #7
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: Re: Re: judo vs aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Erik

You know what the saddest part of that is, it's usually the dumbass, decadent, evil Westerners who say and think that.


Us Westerners aren't any more dumbass or evil (I'm coming to loathe that word) than anyone else. We CAN be damned gullible and our ignorance (oft times willful ignorance) compounds the problem.

Sadly, the Japanese themselves are just as ignorant and gullible about their own budo. Just look at some of the pseudo-budo that have cropped up in Japan in recent years!

One problem we DO have in the West, is that there's a huge faction who say "Just because it's (insert Eastern culture here) it MUST be superior!"

Bull-puckey.

They do some things very, very well. Aside from the notable contributions of a vry few folks, we've almost entirely lost any vestiges of our unarmed martial arts (what remain are almost purely sport) and damn near all our armed martial arts -- but there are a few folks doing the research and trying to recreate them.

From what I've seen, technically, these western arts are just as effective.

What the Japanese did (I won't speak of the Chinese or other arts, I've played in 'em, but don't pursue 'em) was codify, systematize and preserve their martial heritage.

Now, that's become imperiled. Very few Japanese know much more about martial arts than the average American college kid does.

I've read that more westerners are studying budo than Japanese.


(Sort of) Back on topic: The deification of the yudansha.

I think, part of what happened, was when more Westerners began studying budo -- when it was more widely available -- they came back home with a shodan or nidan and began to teach.

They were considered (esp. in the eyes of their students) experts.

Yep. Those folks with a couple of years of karate, judo, aikido or kendo under theor obi were experts.

Now, we've (popularly) let that remain the standard rather than taking a hard look at wht things were like in the dojo where those folks learned.

I know of a couple of sword dojo where the average grade is about yondan. Average. Instructors range from rokudan to hachidan. And outside the kids' classes, there tend to be occasionally one-to-one rations of teachers to students.

On the other hand, you go to a college dojo and it's more like one or two fairly low-grade teachers (think PE teacher rather than sensei ... not ALWAYS the case, but often) and dozens of beginner students.

And those college kids can come out of the uni with a shodan or nidan if they pay attention, show up at most classes and don't do anything really stupid.

Why should an American or Canadian student be held back for 10 years for shodan? That's just silly and is, I feel, sort of a reverse discrimination thing.

And yes, many westerner teachers are responsible. It's not always, as some would have us believe, the hombu holding the foreigners down.

Chuck

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 02:13 PM   #8
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Us Westerners aren't any more dumbass or evil (I'm coming to loathe that word) than anyone else. We CAN be damned gullible and our ignorance (oft times willful ignorance) compounds the problem.

Pretty sure you caught it but just in case, I was being sarcastic (it's genetic in my case) in my comments. How often have you seen some guy just rake our culture, it's values, the people and his name was Bob Smith, or something like that. We can be amazingly self-critical.

One problem we DO have in the West, is that there's a huge faction who say "Just because it's (insert Eastern culture here) it MUST be superior!"

Indeed!

Bull-puckey.

Double indeed!

Why should an American or Canadian student be held back for 10 years for shodan? That's just silly and is, I feel, sort of a reverse discrimination thing.

I don't know many people taking 10 years to get to shodan, at least in these parts if they train semi-regularly. More like 5 years. I think the USAF, for instance, may be different because they've got heavy-duty time requirements. However, virtually every time to rank requirement I've seen here in the US (with the exception of the Fugakukai is nearly double and in the case of the USAF almost triple the requirement at Hombu.

Thing is, who sets those requirements?

Of course, in other arts it can be way worse. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, from what I know on my remote perch, can take a decade or more to get to black belt although I doubt very much that is a uniform standard. I've even read of infighting within the Gracie family (however it's split) on the topic.

And yes, many westerner teachers are responsible. It's not always, as some would have us believe, the hombu holding the foreigners down.

Oh boy, you can start fires too. I'm not up for this one right this second but would love to hear what people think about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 02:54 PM   #9
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
a clarification

Erik,

Quote:
Of course, in other arts it can be way worse. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, from what I know on my remote perch, can take a decade or more to get to black belt although I doubt very much that is a uniform standard. I've even read of infighting within the Gracie family (however it's split) on the topic.
Like judo, rank in bjj tends to be a meritocracy. While the "10 year to shodan" is often quoted, the average time is closer to 7 years, and some folks with a great deal of grappling experience and chances to train have reached shodan in 3-5 years(BJ Penn and Matt Serra come to mind).

Matt Serra is one of Renzo Gracie's students, so I assume that when you say "Gracie" you are referring to the Torrance Academy....that's not something I'm going to discuss on a public forum, but the controversy is pretty one sided.

Unlike judo, bjj does not have a standard "test" for rank. It does have a standard measure, namely competition. So, if a white belt is tapping black belts in competition*, there's a clear problem that someone isn't properly ranked.

*competition implies roughly the same competitive bracket .... it is acknowledged that size, age and physical fitness levels may make a difference in bjj.

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2002, 03:34 PM   #10
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by paw
Matt Serra is one of Renzo Gracie's students, so I assume that when you say "Gracie" you are referring to the Torrance Academy....
The comments I read, if I remember correctly came from Rickson or Royce, so if I have my facts right, that would mean the Torrance academy.

Quote:
that's not something I'm going to discuss on a public forum, but the controversy is pretty one sided.
No problem. I was just trying to point out that even there, which has a more objective standard, you can have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes a black belt.

Thanks for the feedback. I only know what I read in regards to that world.

Last edited by Erik : 04-15-2002 at 04:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2002, 01:31 PM   #11
Doug Mathieu
Dojo: Aikido Bozankan
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 64
Offline
judo vs. aikido

Hello

I have in the past trained in Judo and while many of the comments have good insight it might be of interest to know you have two paths to advance in Judo.

One is more technique oriented learned through Kata and repetitive practice with some fighting involved but not at a high intensity and probably not on the competition circuit. This approach usually takes longer to achieve a Shodan level and is closer to Aikido type training.

The other way and it can be much faster is to hone a few offensive techniques and get on the competition circuit. If you accumalate wins you get promoted faster. By the time you get to Shodan you will know very well one or two killer moves and may only know the names of some of the rest of Judos techniques.

This is of course a generalization as many competitors want to be well rounded Judoka too.

My Shihan has said to us that if you want to learn Aikido as an interest and for health then practice many techniques and work on both sides of the body. Thats okay.

If you want to learn Aikido as a Budo then train one side of the body only and work on fewer techniques to perfection. Unless you have the luxury of training all day every day most of us will not have enough time to become proficient enough to apply Aikido at the level needed to survive a real serious fight against another trained fighter.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2002, 02:04 PM   #12
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
My Shihan has said to us that if you want to learn Aikido as an interest and for health then practice many techniques and work on both sides of the body. Thats okay.

If you want to learn Aikido as a Budo then train one side of the body only and work on fewer techniques to perfection. Unless you have the luxury of training all day every day most of us will not have enough time to become proficient enough to apply Aikido at the level needed to survive a real serious fight against another trained fighter.
My Shihan just teaches. And very well at that.

Last edited by shihonage : 04-18-2002 at 02:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2002, 08:04 PM   #13
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,053
Japan
Offline
Last night was my second Judo lesson. Didn't teach me any new techniques just tossed me to a couple of young Japanese Shodans built like tanks and said randori.

Not a clue what to do but I figure they know what they are doing. Well at least I am getting ukemi practice in.

To paraphase Kenji Tomiki said Judo and Aikido are different sides of the same coin (jujitsu) and complement each other. The reason I am doing it now is that and the fact that a while drinking with a man who was 6th Dan Kodokan Judo and 7th Dan Aikido he said for your Aikido is good, to make it better you must now do Judo. Who am I to argue.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2002, 01:42 PM   #14
ronmar
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 66
Offline
Judo is a martial sport and is not usually approached in the same way as aikido. All of the judo people I know choose to neglect a lot of the character building stuff, at least that which is done consciously, and instead strive for competition success.
For these judoka I feel it is quite right that grade should be awarded on the basis of how well they can fight. If a person can throw fully resisting dan grades using techniques allowed in judo, then shouldn't they be awarded a dan grade too.
Imagine if an olympic level Graeco-Roman wrestler took up judo. They would be throwing your normal club level shodans all over the place. It would be ludicrous not to award them a dan grade straight away.
This is what judo is about in the modern world. I don't think it is easier than the old Japanese approach at all, it just has a different emphasis.
I think that competition in judo develops an excellent understanding of judo principles (relaxation, unbalancing, calmness under pressure, etc) in a fairly short time. Why sacrifice this for a step backwards to a more 'wrote learning' type of approach.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2002, 02:04 PM   #15
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
Aikido verse Judo

Aikido rides the wave or creates the wave.

Judo cuts the tree, or rolls the logs.

Trees float in water, usually.

Water? Logs?

Aikido! Judo!

Same words, same notes, different rythym, different beat of the drum.

Enough said.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2002, 02:42 PM   #16
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
I think I'll take a swim in some logs...right after I chop down this water.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2002, 10:48 AM   #17
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Quote:
Imagine if an olympic level Graeco-Roman wrestler took up judo. They would be throwing your normal club level shodans all over the place. It would be ludicrous not to award them a dan grade straight away.
From Ron's post...

IMHO you should go through the normal curriculum first before being awarded the rank you merit. Just because you can throw someone with similar looking techniques, doesn't make you a competent judoka.

I totally understand that the greco-roman wrestler has the skills/power/technique to ovewpower judokas. Does that mean all competent greco-roman wrestlers should automatically be awarded black belts in judo?

At the end of it all, I think it doesn't matter. You learn an art to learn the art. Not get a belt. If that greco-roman wrestler wants to learn judo, why not just do that? Instead of using his wrestling skills to show that he as good as any black belts.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2002, 11:36 AM   #18
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
another clarification

Abasan,

Quote:
IMHO you should go through the normal curriculum first before being awarded the rank you merit. Just because you can throw someone with similar looking techniques, doesn't make you a competent judoka.
I don't think you understand the purpose of judo rank in the context that Ron is referring to. In the context of shiai, rank determines one's peer group (where it would be "fair" for one to compete). A judo shodan would not be considered qualified to instruct others in judo all by themselves.

Quote:
I totally understand that the greco-roman wrestler has the skills/power/technique to ovewpower judokas. Does that mean all competent greco-roman wrestlers should automatically be awarded black belts in judo?
The answer for shiai is "Yes. Absolutely." If anyone from any martial sytle can compete within the rules of judo on the shodan level, they should do so. Further shodan or better in judo should be able to deal with these situations as well.

Quote:
If that greco-roman wrestler wants to learn judo, why not just do that? Instead of using his wrestling skills to show that he as good as any black belts.
Greco and folkstyle wrestling techniques are included in Kodokan judo. The arts are not that dissimilar and the former Soviet Union trained their judo players with this in mind (and later rocked the judo world with their unorthodox and effective style --- Ippon Books has a book entitled "Russian Judo" that addresses this).

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2002, 01:42 PM   #19
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
It seems that you're talking about winning contests. There's lots more to Kodokan judo than just winning contests.

Beating some shodan level people in shiai should not entitle that person (that is a wrestler that does not seriously practice judo) to a shodan ranking in judo. No two ways about it.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2002, 02:13 PM   #20
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
Chuck,

Quote:
It seems that you're talking about winning contests. There's lots more to Kodokan judo than just winning contests.
I agree, there is more to Kodokan judo than Olympic judo or Kosen judo. I thought I made it clear I was talking about shiai (Olympic judo).

Quote:
Beating some shodan level people in shiai should not entitle that person (that is a wrestler that does not seriously practice judo) to a shodan ranking in judo. No two ways about it.
Promotion by Batsugun is acceptable by USJF bylaws. You may want to review the rank requirements of the USJF.

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2002, 07:20 PM   #21
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Paul,

I really don't care what the USJF says. If a person isn't a serious student of judo, they don't deserve judo rank. I'm an old-timer and have very traditional views about what is tadashi judo.

Winners of shiai deserve all the trophies they can carry away, etc. but rank shouldn't be one of them.

A yudansha rank used to mean that you had passed through a certain course of study that was common to judo. It should still mean that.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2002, 05:10 AM   #22
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
sorry you feel that way....

Chuck,

Quote:
I really don't care what the USJF says.
Well now, not much to say after that, I guess <shrugs>.

Well, actually there's a lot in your post I'd like to respond to, but I really don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have. We can agree to disagree, or we can discuss this further at a judo specific forum --- it's up to you, just let me know.

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2002, 02:18 PM   #23
ronmar
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 66
Offline
Quote:
A yudansha rank used to mean that you had passed through a certain course of study that was common to judo. It should still mean that.
Imagine this:
What if you have passed through that time honoured couse of study, slowly gaining rank, learning the japanese names for a lot of throws and holds, performing them in the dojo environment and in gradings against others like yourself, until you are awarded your black belt.
Then you enter a competition and are suddenly pitted against a wrestler. This man is new to judo, at least in the way you define it, but has years of competitive wrestling behind him. He defeats you. Why does this man not deserve a black belt in judo? The stuff you spent so long learning did not prevent your defeat. He is obviously better than you at fighting to judo rules. The fact that he has entered a judo competition shows he is interested in judo. He performs to black belt standard. So why not give him the belt? He can learn the stuff he doesn't know by reading a few books. He has already demonstrated that he knows the important stuff, in my opinion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2002, 02:40 PM   #24
REK
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Winners of shiai deserve all the trophies they can carry away, etc. but rank shouldn't be one of them.

A yudansha rank used to mean that you had passed through a certain course of study that was common to judo. It should still mean that.
Chuck,

I happen to agree with you. "Judo", as I understand it, is a martial art. There are competitive forms of it, but it has its roots in martial tradition. (Hmmm, or am I talking about Tomiki Aikido, or Shotokan Karate?)

For me, there is a curriculum of study that is required to earn rank in the art. Winning tournaments is great. Used to compete myself (I sucked, but it was fun). I agree that the rank you earn in competition is a seed, not a shodan.

I guess everybody's got to be somewhere.

Rob

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2002, 05:46 PM   #25
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by ronmar


Imagine this:
What if you have passed through that time honoured couse of study, slowly gaining rank, learning the japanese names for a lot of throws and holds, performing them in the dojo environment and in gradings against others like yourself, until you are awarded your black belt.
Then you enter a competition and are suddenly pitted against a wrestler. This man is new to judo, at least in the way you define it, but has years of competitive wrestling behind him. He defeats you. Why does this man not deserve a black belt in judo? The stuff you spent so long learning did not prevent your defeat. He is obviously better than you at fighting to judo rules. The fact that he has entered a judo competition shows he is interested in judo. He performs to black belt standard. So why not give him the belt? He can learn the stuff he doesn't know by reading a few books. He has already demonstrated that he knows the important stuff, in my opinion.
By this argument...if someone beats up an aikido dan in a bar, then he deserves a grade equal or superior to the aikidoka.
Aikido has no rules (you know what I mean) so he has demonstrated that he knows the important stuff, in your opinion.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Aikido & Judo Seminar/DC Metro Area Michael Neal General 21 09-08-2005 10:30 AM
I don't get aikido training method. ronmar Techniques 79 11-25-2002 11:03 AM
Question about judo and aikido ronmar General 4 04-05-2002 06:11 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:25 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate