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Old 04-25-2002, 09:15 PM   #1
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
Location: Appleton, WI
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Bujustu, Ninji,Aikido... Whats the diffrence

My Sense said that we learn a style of Aikido called Bujitsu. Im looking for stuff on the web but cant seem to find any thing. I guess he said that syle we learn came from Ninji (i cant spell it but thats how it sounds) which is just a refinded version of regular Aikido and then Bujitsu is a branch of Ninji.

I cant find either Ninji or Bujitsu on this site or aikidofaq.com, if anyone could clarify the diffrence between this style and lets say Aikikai or just point me to a website.

Thanks

A true warrior uses the greatest weapon... The art of Peace.
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Old 04-25-2002, 09:26 PM   #2
guest1234
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Hi Brandon,

The most important thing about your dojo is how you feel there, and if it is what makes you happy. I'd suggest if you want to know more about what your sensei teaches, especially since he has already told you he does not follow a particular style, is see if he is willing to tell you about what styles he trained in, why he has gone the route of the independent, etc...if you want to know his history, he is the best guy to ask

If you are uncertain if this is what you are after, there is at least one dojo 26 miles from you, I found it using the dojo search feature over on the left side of this page. There may even be more, just not listed. You could check the yellow and white pages, and ask at local martial arts stores.

I don't put a lot of stock in belonging to a particular organization over being an independant, but there are positives to belonging to a larger group (and negatives as well). I'd say the most important thing is how you feel there, so if you need to look around a little, go ahead and do that...
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Old 04-25-2002, 09:38 PM   #3
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
Location: Appleton, WI
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Thanks for the reply.

I talked to my sense again and i was wrong befor when i said he did not teach a certain style, i guess he teaches bujitsu, a style of Aikido. Its not a matter of if i like the dojo or not because i love it. Im just a information driven person and i want to find out as much as i can about bujitsu and ninji.

Ive done searches on yahoo and google and have not come up with much. Just wondering if i could get some expert input or websites on what the heck this styles are and when they started etc.

Thanks

A true warrior uses the greatest weapon... The art of Peace.
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Old 04-25-2002, 09:55 PM   #4
guest1234
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If you check the Aikido vocabulary section in the language section to the left above, it has a definition of 'Bu' as martial, literally translated as 'to stop a halbred' , I've also hear 'to stop a spear'. Jitsu has been defined elsewhere on this forum, I think someone likened it to a system of fighting techniques as opposed to a 'do' or 'way' but I am probably mangling this. Anyway, I think roughly it would be a martial fighting style, or something like that in translation. It may be your sensei's own version of a style more would be familiar with...one of the things about being independant is you can teach what you want, how you want, and call it whatever pleases you...and this may be along the lines of what he's done.

Ninji may be ninja, you can try looking that up. Aikido, as most of us on this forum define, would probably not be traced to ninja, but is seen as a unique modern martial art developed between the world wars and after WWII by O Sensei.

I'm thinking that perhaps your sensei is teaching something related to Aikido, or a synthesis of his own from different arts including Aikido, but not necessarily what we'd call Aikido. Now mind you, I am a beginner as well, but the ninja reference makes me think it is not exactly what the rest of us are studying.
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Old 04-25-2002, 10:07 PM   #5
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
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i said ninji not ninja. i may be spell ninje... im not sure and i cant seem to find a meaning to it either. Ill keep searchign and ask sense more questions next week.

Thanks

A true warrior uses the greatest weapon... The art of Peace.
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Old 04-25-2002, 10:19 PM   #6
guest1234
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always a good idea... good luck and let us know how the search went...
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Old 04-25-2002, 11:16 PM   #7
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by particleman151
i said ninji not ninja. i may be spell ninje... im not sure and i cant seem to find a meaning to it either. Ill keep searchign and ask sense more questions next week.
Bujutsu, contextually, means "Martial Arts". Jitsu is just an older way of saying the same thing as jutsu...like using the old English pronunciation of "Knight" rather than the modern.

Some people might use it in a relative sense to Budo where do sometimes carries a little more sense of a path to enlightenment versus a technical method of self defense. If you sense me fudging, that's because I am. There are a lot of history and misconceptions in the whole "Jutsu v. Do" argument.

The normal contextual meaning of Nin is, like, "Deceptive" or "Stealthy". It could carry another connotation, I guess.

The only meaning I could find for ninji in a simple dictionary was "Man-Hour".

I'll leave it at that before I get too much further beyond my knowledge of Japanese.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-25-2002, 11:39 PM   #8
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


Bujutsu, contextually, means "Martial Arts". Jitsu is just an older way of saying the same thing as jutsu...like using the old English pronunciation of "Knight" rather than the modern.
"Jutsu" and "jitsu" are the same word, just different romanizations. "Jitsu" is incorrect but was often used in the past and still gets seen here and there.

"Martial arts" is probably pretty close for "bujutsu" as it's commonly used, although people who like to read deeper meanings into things may disagree.

From another posting - "bu" as "stopping the spear or halberd" may or may not be historically accurate. My opinion is that it's not - there was a pretty good article covering that issue a few years ago in Aikido Today by Seiseki Abe.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-26-2002, 04:32 AM   #9
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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STYLE OF AIKIDO?

Quote:
Originally posted by particleman151
i said ninji not ninja. i may be spell ninje... im not sure and i cant seem to find a meaning to it either. Ill keep searchign and ask sense more questions next week.
Thanks
KAMI : There's no style of Aikido known as "Bujitsu" or "Ninji". As has been said before, anyone may create something and call it anything one wants. That does not make it a "style".
Jitsu as Chris Li stated is an incorrect pronounciation of Jutsu and is still used as in "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" (with Ju also misspelled as Jiu). BU is also commonly misconstrued to mean "To stop an halberd, a spear or fighting". The ancient meaning of the characters, nonetheless, means "to advance with a weapon" or "to use weapons". The new meaning "to stop fighting" was mostly developed in the Edo Period and in the XX century to give the characters a new, more peaceful translation and to avoid any conotation of violence.
I agree also with Colleen. Do what you feel best but it would be good if you could go on and see some other dojo, in order to make a more correct choice.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 04-26-2002, 05:53 AM   #10
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


"Jutsu" and "jitsu" are the same word, just different romanizations. "Jitsu" is incorrect but was often used in the past and still gets seen here and there.
Hi Chris,

I was hoping you would jump in with the real deal.

I seem to fuzzily remember a discussion on some forum about the romanizations "jitsu" or "jiujitsu". I think there were two things discussed. One was a romanization method used before the Hepburn system. The other was a pronunciation used in the Tokyo area in times gone by. Now this is really fuzzy, but I think it was in the later 1800's.

Is that totally wrong?

As an aside, I believe that today in the U.S., there are trademarks tied up in "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu", etc. Given BJJ's popularity, I think the incorrect romanji has a new lease on life.

Quote:

"Martial arts" is probably pretty close for "bujutsu" as it's commonly used, although people who like to read deeper meanings into things may disagree.
The original poster asking about the term "bujitsu" in the context of an American instructor in a small town in middle America. This is akin to describing the usage of the Southern word "Aiight" or the Up-East term "aaauuhhh" It's not correct, it's not even a word, but everyone knows what it means in context.

The "bujutsu" word often comes up in McDojo settings where the speaker says something like "I teach bu*jutsu*...how to fight. Not that pinko, sissy, new age bu*do* stuff".

The poster might also be mis-romanizing what he's hearing. He said that it might be "Ninji" or "Ninje" but that he was sure it wasn't "Ninja".

FWIW, I third Colleen's and Ubaldo's advice. Now is an excellent time for Brandon to visit a well-known Aikido dojo and see if the "Bujitsu Ninji" dojo's aikido "quacks like a duck".

Best Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 04-26-2002 at 05:56 AM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-26-2002, 06:35 AM   #11
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings

I seem to fuzzily remember a discussion on some forum about the romanizations "jitsu" or "jiujitsu". I think there were two things discussed. One was a romanization method used before the Hepburn system. The other was a pronunciation used in the Tokyo area in times gone by. Now this is really fuzzy, but I think it was in the later 1800's.
There are a bunch of romanization systems and no standardization. One is designated by the Ministry of Education for the public school system, so some people take that as the "official" method, but you still see all sorts of variations. At the heart of it is that Japanese never use romaji among themselves - it's just not necessary. The only people who use it are foreigners, so nobody really cares if it gets standardized or not. I know any number of Japanese who can't even read and write romaji.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-26-2002, 07:15 AM   #12
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
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Thanks for the info.

The only site i could find was www.ki-aikido.com/bujutsu.htm . I guess Bujustu is just a more practical way of fighting. It just filters out alot of the moves that would not work in a real fight and such. As for the ninji or ninje i have not found a thing on it. Maybe this is a certain ryu or something, in this case there is so many ryu out there, that would be why we cant seem to find any thing on it.

Thanks

A true warrior uses the greatest weapon... The art of Peace.
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Old 04-26-2002, 07:47 AM   #13
Chuck.Gordon
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Particleman151,

Welcome to Aikiweb!

Just curious, I haven't looked at your profile yet. Who is your teacher, what's the dojo and where is it?

That info might help us figure out the style and lineage.



Chuck

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Old 04-26-2002, 07:55 AM   #14
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
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My sensei name is Mike and he is a 3rd dan Black belt. The program is thourgh the YMCA and we share a small wharehouse type building with the gymnist of the YMCA. The dojo is acually in Kimberly, WI (for those of you who have no idea where that is its about 20 miles from Green Bay).

As far as i know there is only one other dojo with in a hours drive and that is in Green Bay.

There is a couple of students from other Aikido places that really like this dojo so i think that this dojo is laget.

A true warrior uses the greatest weapon... The art of Peace.
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Old 04-26-2002, 05:53 PM   #15
warriorwoman
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bujutsu, ninji, aikido..What's the difference?

As someone posted earlier, the term "bujutsu" simply means combat skills.

The term "ninja" comes from the root word "nin" which means to persevere. Therefore, a "ninja" literally means "one who perseveres".

It sounds as though your teacher is teaching a style of Aikido which emphasizes combat applications. There are some styles of Aikido which place more emphasis on the "combat application" of the techniques and it appears that your teacher's style is one of them. There are several styles of Aikido, but without more information, it will be difficult to know if your teacher is teaching one of them, or as someone suggested earlier, one that he is "interpreting".
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org
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Old 04-26-2002, 06:39 PM   #16
giriasis
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People here are being very diplomatic. What you are saying really makes me raise an eyebrow.

Quote:
Maybe this is a certain ryu or something, in this case there is so many ryu out there, that would be why we cant seem to find any thing on it.
Actually that's not as true as you might think. Aikido is an art where a person should be able to easily trace their lineage. And indepedents are easy to link to their past as well.

From personal experience in an attempt to research a martial art, that if there is no information on it on well known and well respected sources then it probably doesn't exist. If you can't find information on AikiWeb, AikidoFAQ, of AikidoJournal on this "bujitsu/ ninji" branch of Aikido, then it is clear that it is his own self-creation. If it is his own "creation", then you are getting what you pay for. Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware).

Becaause of this you need to ask questions. And don't be afraid to ask. Any good sensei should be more than willing to share their background with you.

You you need a last name. As suggested, ask him about his background. Who did he train with, where did he train, and how long did he train? What organization issued him the black belt? If he was part of a larger organization, why did he leave?

If he is honest and upfront up about his background and you like the training you are getting, then stick around. If he starts to give you the run around and gets offended at your questions, I suggest going elsewhere--even to a non-aikido school.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 04-26-2002, 10:48 PM   #17
particleman151
Dojo: YMCA Akido/ Appleton, WI
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Thanks, you raised some really good points. The reason i know that this place is laget is because there is two people in this class from Calafornia who trained with students of O Sensie and would not go here if it was a made up MA or what not.

I will definitly ask more questions next time we have class but baiscly i think that the whole bujutsu is just filtering out alot of moves to make it a more practical self defense. I guess this is why it is more self defense oriented and less spirutal etc.

Thanks again for all the good replys

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