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Old 11-23-2011, 10:51 PM   #76
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: To help or not to help

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sure those things happen and we tend to hear about the things that go bad in the news and not so much about the things that go right.

WWI was essentially a mess because of changes in technology. Barbed wire, machine guns, and tanks to be specific. These three things essentially forced a change in tactics which not one military was really prepared to deal with, so yes, you had some very bad decision making going on that led to the trench warfare quagmire that developed.

Can you give me a specific instance in which soldiers have been given lawful orders to fire on peaceful citizens? In fact, all Soldiers under the Geneva Convention are bound to disobey such unlawful orders under severe penalty.

Have you ever been in the Military? You don't seem to understand Military Law and the Geneva Convention. It is important to understand these things.

Are there breakdowns in the system? yes of course, Abu Ghrab is a good example.

Do we all military and civilian have to obey "orders" and laws that we don't agree with? Yes. I don't like paying taxes to a State I am not even living in. I don't like the speed limits on some of the roads I drive on. I don't like the way my Grocery Store ques lines. I don't like many of the decisons my elected officials make. I see very little difference really in the rights and responsibilities that ANY citizen has in most of the free world.

I think a whole TV Series as done on bosses that make stupid decisions...what is that show? Office. How is this any different than the dumb decisions that a Military leader makes over a civilian boss? Sure the consequences may be different and stakes may be higher in many instances, but non of us are really above having to listen to the stupid rules that someone imposes on us that has power over us.
Granted, no military experience. Also I see you are of the military and a bit apt to therefore overdefend as I may be a bit apt to speak about something I'm not actually a part of. But I think we've kept it quite clean.

Asking for specific instances seems a bit odd seeing what's going on in the middle east and arab countries with peaceful protests.

As I said, idiotic control freaks in charge in that system leads to such orders and soldiers scared not to obey. Just fact. Not put down of you. No trying to link you into that. I think you'll find oppression by militaristic governments fits the bill nicely and in such cases what geneva convention? But alas we stray from help.

Military in the right way can help of course. There you are, nicely back on topic.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:15 AM   #77
Aikironin21
Dojo: Aikido of Solano
Location: Vacaville California
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 25
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Re: To help or not to help

Back to the question at hand, do you, as a civilian, or even a military man, or off duty LEO, physically intercede when someone is being physically assaulted and battered? It easy out of a sense of pride, machismo, or duty as a budo practitioner to say yes yes yes.

Let's be honest here. This is an Aikido forum. How many Aikidoka, do you train with, that you honestly think have what it takes, to apply what they have learned, to save you, or one of your loved ones. Honestly it is very few, even among the lower Dan ranks, that I have known. So let's take Aikido out of the equation. How do you know when it is appropriate for you to intercede, and to what level do you get involved?

I still maintain, the first aid model. You see something, you observe, determine that there is an actual emergency (not just some horse playing), you call, or have someone call for help, then take whatever action you can safely take.

I think it is the "safely" we are having a discussion about. How do you judge if it is safe for you to take any action. First, Know your enemy. If you are walking up on a fight in progress, you have very limited details. You may see one guy getting beaten pretty bad, by three others. Most assume the one guy to be the "good guy" and the three to be the "bad guys". Get rid of that view. They are all fighting, they are breaking the law, they are all potential enemies to you. You have no side in this exchange so don't buy into one. Do any of them appear to have any weapons, or fighting as if they have any particular training, or is it just a free for all all out hay maker fest, where maybe less than 25% of strikes are even landing? The people involved may not be any better trained than you, and unarmed. The only obvious advantage to them is numbers.

Know yourself! Are you proficient enough at what you know and fit enough to hang long enough to get away from them should they come after you while trying to stop the fight? Do you have anyone with you, to even up the numbers, and out of who is with you, who has the ability to stand and fight if needed. Is there anyone with you, who would become a detriment to you trying to defend yourself, if need be. Like a child, or elderly family member of friend? Do you have any means of force multiplier, which may aid or possibly hinder you before during or after the incident?

Know your environment. If you approach the people fighting can you get away from them? Make sure there are two ways to get away from where they are fighting. Can others see you from the street or walkway? Are there potentially dangerous stationary objects, or potential improvised weapons laying about? What's the wind direction? How's the lighting? How many people are "watching" and what do they seem to be saying?

After you have done this, and you determine you can approach or at least get a little closer, you move in. You appeal to the one or people who seem to be in control or dominating. You say things like"Come on guys, looks like he's learned his lesson" or "Ok, Ok, that's enough, don't kill the man." If that doesn't seem to slow them down, verify your egresses are still there, and tell them the police have been called. This is why you make sure there are two ways to get out. One for you, and one for them so they don't have to go through you to get away.

If you do all this and they remain, you evaluate all over again, but this time, you weigh actual physical contact of trying to pull them back or off their opponent. If there are a number of them try to get some on the scene help from fellow bystanders. Try to get to the side, never in between them and their opponent. Don't rush in and start punching or trying to slap on a control hold or something. In fact if you have pepper spray, check the wind direction, and go for it. But realize, you will be the new target after you spray them. May be best to spray then egress away.

This is just an example, but this is how you need to think, and it looks like a lot and a drawn out process written out, but all this takes seconds to do in your head, if you work at it. Working at these things is what develops your situation awareness. Over time you will be constantly doing this subconsciously, especially in Aikido where we try to develop that sixth sense for danger.

The answer to whether or not or how to intercede definitely will be on a case by case basis. Knowing the what details to think of to make the decision should be thought of before hand. You don't want to bi in the situation to try and figure out on the fly what to ask yourself.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:42 AM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: To help or not to help

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Granted, no military experience. Also I see you are of the military and a bit apt to therefore overdefend as I may be a bit apt to speak about something I'm not actually a part of. But I think we've kept it quite clean.

Asking for specific instances seems a bit odd seeing what's going on in the middle east and arab countries with peaceful protests.

As I said, idiotic control freaks in charge in that system leads to such orders and soldiers scared not to obey. Just fact. Not put down of you. No trying to link you into that. I think you'll find oppression by militaristic governments fits the bill nicely and in such cases what geneva convention? But alas we stray from help.

Military in the right way can help of course. There you are, nicely back on topic.

Regards.G.
Hey Graham, no issues and good discussion. I guess what I was really trying to say is the things you are pointing out tend to be the exceptions and not the norm. What I clue in on are words such as "Usually". Of course there are exceptions and we tend to hear about these things and we also tend to filter and focus on those things that validate our thought processes. I am just trying to present a better perspective of the issues from my own experiences in an attempt to get you and others to see an expanded view that things are not so clear cut and black and white. thats all.

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Old 11-24-2011, 01:08 PM   #79
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: To help or not to help

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Hey Graham, no issues and good discussion. I guess what I was really trying to say is the things you are pointing out tend to be the exceptions and not the norm. What I clue in on are words such as "Usually". Of course there are exceptions and we tend to hear about these things and we also tend to filter and focus on those things that validate our thought processes. I am just trying to present a better perspective of the issues from my own experiences in an attempt to get you and others to see an expanded view that things are not so clear cut and black and white. thats all.
I agree. Then we are both doing the same thing. Command structure is a good topic to study. It's plusses and it's minuses. Examples where it works well compared to examples where it didn't. As I've said before spotting the differences is the difference.

An ideal one would help. A not ideal one would destroy. So knowing the qualities needed inherent to a good one as opposed to a bad one is the difference.

It can lead to a whole broad area of study actually. For instance, most people see, and have experienced, the effect of command structure where all goes one way, from top to bottom. A one way flow. Compare that to a communication structure. Communication, or good communication is a two way flow. A circle if you like. You to me and then me back to you.

Now try to communicate back upline on a command line. Mmmmm. not usually so easy, especially if you disagree. Could even get you shot. (extreme I know but just magnifying a point)

In communication you are communicating to another person. In a command structure in comes ego and arrogance and you are then communicating either to 'above your paygrade' type attitude or to subordinates, 'huh, what do they know.'

A fascinating subject and when wrong hinders rather than helps wouldn't you say. On the other hand you could say that when good then as it's an organized body can therefore do more good than an individual.

Anyway. I'm signing off on this one. Good talking to you.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 11-24-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:58 AM   #80
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: To help or not to help

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
(...) A guy no one even knew came up behind him and cold cocked him, breaking his jaw in two places. The guy wasn't even one of the guys in the fight.
(...)
I told him about the Univ of Wash student who took one punch at a party and died on the spot.
Yes, those are things most people willing to intervene don't know beforehand, until it's too late.

Firstly, as so rightly said, one punch may kill. It is obvious enough that it is not in the intentions (no one throwing a punch does that in order to kill) and yet a punch may kill. Most fatalities ensuing one mere punch derive from persons falling and hitting their heads on concrete or objects.

Many persons do fall with one punch - something that may startle you if you're into some martial arts, but those who aren't may fall indeed.
And if they don't, you may be in for a regular fight, with all the dangers implied: a guy who does not fall under a good punch can be:
1) drunk
2) competent
3) well, both...
In the second case you're in trouble. In the third it depends on how intoxication affects him.

Another thing often forgotten, totally unexpected (and vicious, at times) weapons may be suddenly produced out of seemingly nowehere. They can be weapons carried and concealed in the funniest places (I know plenty of bouncers who hide weapons, inclusive of heavy sticks, in their socks!).
People may use their own belts with the intention to hit you with the buckle.
Nearby objects may be seized and suddenly prove to be effective weapons.
As George reminds us, people apparently unconnected may simply get in - you may never know why!

By and large I have come to the conclusion that you should never intervene, in no case. And you should resist at all costs the temptation to intervene to "save" a lady.

Keep in mind that also intervening verbally may mean you've already committed yourself to the physical level in the eyes of your counterparts: if you speak, you also beat.

My rationale for never intervening rests fundamentally on this: you do not know what is going on, despite you have made a fictional picture in your mind about what was going on: the truth being you have indeed no idea what was really going on. Realize you are living a fictional fantasy.
You may end up injuring yourself or finding out you were so valiantly defending a lady from her... pushers whom she did not want to pay! Or stuff in similar lines, knowing which you would have decided otherwise.

Call 911 and as pointed out, at most you can be a witness.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:04 AM   #81
aikidoka81
 
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Re: To help or not to help

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Basically, I think that someone who pursues Budo as a Path has an obligation to use those skills to protect folks who are not capable of protecting themselves. What else is your training for?

That said, you have to be realistic and understand that ANY time you intervene it could instantly and without warning become a life and death matter. If you don't go into it with that mindset, don't intervene. Also, in a violent confrontation, it makes no sense to intervene unless you actually have the skills to back up your words.
Completely agree George

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