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Old 04-13-2010, 12:48 PM   #201
phitruong
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I consistently see the word jujutsu used whenever something is perceived as simple or less important (i.e. angle, timing, leverage etc).

"Ju" is another principle, different then "Aiki". "Ju" has to do with yielding to force. While angle, timing, leverage and all of these other components are a part of jujutsu, they are also components in Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Aikijutsu, and most martial art systems (that I know of). These concepts shouldn't be relegated to a heap of stuff we call "simple" . Further we should give the respect to Jujutsu that we give to the Aiki related arts. Different but equal.

While "Aiki" as I understand it, is my main focus. I still use and appreciate the principle of "Ju". Further to think that things like angle, leverage etc. are not important to Aikido, is to ignore the forms. Aikido forms consistently use angle, leverage and many other "simple" concepts.
i don't see anywhere that folks said angle, leverage, timing and distance aren't important to aikido or any other martial arts. if you read the quote from Hakaru Mori - "I could use it to do an effective technique without necessarily having to turn his palm up and reverse his wrist in the usual way typically done in jujutsu techniques. No matter what the specific starting position of my opponent's wrist or hand, I was able to straighten his elbow in an instant by applying just a little force in a particular way, in the process sending a shock to his body that sometimes even penetrated to his very center via his abdominal region. An opponent to whom this technique has been applied suddenly becomes unable to release his grip, finds the power draining out of his attack as he is floated upwards, and becomes subject to control by the will of the person applying the technique."
he still used angle and leverage, but in a different way using "aiki" which doesn't required him to change his body position or his opponent position to be affective. his whole body embodied aiki which can be applied in any direction at any time at will. it's a state of being, i.e. what are timing and distance of "already there". ju and go are terms. to a martial art person, soft and/or hard is just a matter of will/intent.
 
Old 04-13-2010, 01:01 PM   #202
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Thanks Josh.

I can see we are going to need a thread defining "Ju" as well. There seems to be the decided opinion of an aiki camp, that jujutsu is simply all that stuff we do that is easily explainable.

I consistently see the word jujutsu used whenever something is perceived as simple or less important (i.e. angle, timing, leverage etc).

"Ju" is another principle, different then "Aiki". "Ju" has to do with yielding to force. While angle, timing, leverage and all of these other components are a part of jujutsu, they are also components in Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Aikijutsu, and most martial art systems (that I know of). These concepts shouldn't be relegated to a heap of stuff we call "simple" . Further we should give the respect to Jujutsu that we give to the Aiki related arts. Different but equal.

While "Aiki" as I understand it, is my main focus. I still use and appreciate the principle of "Ju". Further to think that things like angle, leverage etc. are not important to Aikido, is to ignore the forms. Aikido forms consistently use angle, leverage and many other "simple" concepts.
I'm not really sure where this came from. In fact, I actually state:

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
NOTE: that doesn't mean jujutsu is something horrible. Quite the opposite. Jujutsu can be an awesome thing. But it is a separate entity from aiki.
So, I'm confused as to where I've labeled jujutsu as: simple, easy, or less important.

The NOTE quoted above isn't the first one I've added about jujutsu and I certainly haven't posted any disdain for jujutsu. Unless "Jujutsu can be an awesome thing" can be misread as being disdainful?

However, this thread wasn't about jujutsu. It was about defining aiki. When people toss out terms like timing, leverage, and body placement, I point out that those aren't defining terms for aiki but rather for jujutsu. No adjectives of simple, easy, less important were used to qualify either term: aiki or jujutsu.
 
Old 04-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #203
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Mike,
I'm not sure what you mean by disagree, or rather what it is you are disagreeing with. The guy who wrote the article seems to be making a statement about how "Ju" is not soft. I would agree with that. A bow (from bow an arrow) has what I would call "Ju", yet it is in no way soft. Soft is a horrible description of "Ju" in my opinion. If you'd like to know more on my thoughts on "Ju" http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=149 . Ju is not soft it's yielding like a willow tree (coincidence?).

As for "Ju" relating to internal arts I also think the man who wrote the article is correct. However what I would call internal and what you might call internal are perhaps different animals.

Josh,
I could only read the first part of the article, so I don't know if there is more I need to read. But from what I read in the first part describing "hijinobashi aiki" I would say he's talking about what has been called "out reaching". The ability to feel into someone's body, feeling how their structure aligns and adding just a bit to it to achieve the results you are looking for (locked elbow, kuzushi, etc.).

I do this with my students while we apply nikyo from the shoulder. I move through their bodies locking them up as I go. Moving from my feet to their feet with feeling, taking the slack out of each joint as I go. At first my students do the same thing as Hakaru Mori was describing. First they do it badly. Then they try and copy me exactly, it still doesn't work. Eventually the thoughtful ones get what I'm talking about and can do it as well. Seems magical until you understand it, like most things. I think this principle is not "Aiki", that doesn't mean that it's unreasonable to call it "Aiki" I see how the word could fit it, that's just not what I call it.

To the others,
if you don't feel you are stigmatizing anything as "just Jujutsu" don't worry about it. I just got the feeling several times that there was a stigma forming around Jujutsu. Maybe I'm off base, and if it doesn't pertain to you, ignore it.

 
Old 04-13-2010, 02:24 PM   #204
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Koretoshi Maruyama teaches that you should visualize that the arms and legs are tied into the body at a small X' located in the lower part of the back centered over the spine. If you look at the X from the back, the upper left point of the X is where the right leg starts, the upper right is tied to the left leg, the lower left is tied to the right arm and the lower right is tied to the left arm. When you move any arm or leg, you should mentally visualize the movement for that arm or leg is actually starting and coming from those points of the X - and it is crucial that there is absolutely no muscle tension in any of your movement paths and that the shoulders are completely relaxed with weight underside, etc.

Anyway, FWIW, that is how he presents it
Can't quite visualize your description.

Here are two pictures that show the fascia connection at the location you described. You can see that there is a cross connection that describes an X.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...id/160?page=14

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../id/160?page=2

David
 
Old 04-13-2010, 03:11 PM   #205
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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I've had a little extra time on my hands lately, and I could very well be way off base, but the more I read here on this topic, the more I have a sneaking suspicion that a part of aiki, (maybe the foundation) is the opposite of muscle contraction.

I wonder if there is a way to train to move with complete, whole-body, muscle extension. Perhaps that's what is meant by being "connected"," fascia", "long muscle"," softness in hardness/hardness in softness", etc.
The fascia "is responsible for maintaining structural integrity; for providing support and protection; and acts as a shock absorber". (http://www.search.com/reference/Fascia).

If the fascia is responsible for structural integrity of the body then whole body movement does not require the muscles to move above the waist.

David
 
Old 04-13-2010, 03:35 PM   #206
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Mike,
I'm not sure what you mean by disagree, or rather what it is you are disagreeing with. The guy who wrote the article seems to be making a statement about how "Ju" is not soft. I would agree with that. A bow (from bow an arrow) has what I would call "Ju", yet it is in no way soft. Soft is a horrible description of "Ju" in my opinion. If you'd like to know more on my thoughts on "Ju" http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=149 . Ju is not soft it's yielding like a willow tree (coincidence?).

As for "Ju" relating to internal arts I also think the man who wrote the article is correct. However what I would call internal and what you might call internal are perhaps different animals.
Hi Chris:

Well, I've spent a lot of time over the last 25-30 years checking with a lot of known/recognized martial-artists from Asia just to be sure that I wasn't developing some independent/personal definition of what internal-strength is, how it works, etc. Of course, the initial aspects have to be shown, felt, etc., to start the conversation, but after, in terms of definition (even the definition in Aikido, jujitsu, etc.) is very easy. It's easy to show, it's been defined for ages, there are concrete displays of the associated powers (and Ueshiba, Tohei, and others were doing the same or related demonstrations, believe me).

What you call "internal" is undoubtedly interesting, but since the real parameters of "internal" are already pretty well defined, it's probably best to understand that people can't have personal definitions that will stand up as "also being correct".

I'll be more than happy sometime to try to at least thumbnail and show the basics to you so that you can see a broader view of the topic. A good starting place, as I've said many times before, is to analyse the why's of that one-legged standing demonstration put on by Tohei's students. It's a good first step in understanding what's really involved and it's also easy to see that the type of structure involving the spine (that you were talking about) isn't the main issue.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-13-2010, 04:29 PM   #207
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I would be super happy to meet with you and "feel" what you are talking about. Again I would be surprised if it is not something I am familiar with, but I'm open to learning something new!

 
Old 04-13-2010, 05:37 PM   #208
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Can't quite visualize your description.

Here are two pictures that show the fascia connection at the location you described. You can see that there is a cross connection that describes an X.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...id/160?page=14

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../id/160?page=2

David
If you take the first picture and place an X over it, that would be about right...
 
Old 04-13-2010, 05:42 PM   #209
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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If the fascia is responsible for structural integrity of the body then whole body movement does not require the muscles to move above the waist.

David
I think I have heard that somewhere else before
 
Old 04-13-2010, 07:36 PM   #210
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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I think I have heard that somewhere else before
Really, well they stole it from me 'cause I discovered it first.

David
 
Old 04-14-2010, 07:42 AM   #211
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Personally, I wouldn't explain it that way ... but in theory it's close to how I'm looking at things. Mostly, I wouldn't explain it that way because I'm trying not to activate bicep or tricep muscles at all, even together. Course, I might be trying to get them to the microsecond pre-stage of movement.

In other words getting my brain to send the signal that I want to pick something up. My hand grabs the object and at the very microsecond that my biceps would physically contract to lift, I don't let them do that but keep them at that pivotal point. At the very same time, I'm getting my brain to send the signal that I want to push that object down and at the very microsecond that my triceps would physically contract, I don't let them do that but keep them at that pivotal point. Contradictory forces using both biceps and triceps, without the actual physical contraction of those localized muscle groups. But, yet not really the actual physical extension of them either.

Same concept with the ki unbendable arm trick. You imagine a flow of water going out your arm. What really makes that work? You're sending a signal to the brain to "push" something outward but not really letting your muscles contract physically to finish the job. Except, as I mention, you have to have contradictory forces going, so outward is only 1/2 of the "intent" needed.

How do the arms tie in to the body? The shoulder area. Which, for me, is a huge obstacle because of muscles wanting to physically fire and get in the way. Once localized muscle groups (for example pecs, or biceps or quads) fire and physically contract/expand/whatever, that restricts "ki flow" as some would say. Intent outwards and inwards, from and to the spine. The shoulder joint, in that contradictory force does not get pulled outward nor does it get jammed inwards by force. That shoulder joint becomes the connection point for the arms to the upper cross.

Rinse and repeat with entire body. Structure.
Thanks Mark, this and other responses here on this thread certailnly gives me a lot more to gnaw on.
 
Old 04-14-2010, 09:57 AM   #212
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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Personally, I wouldn't explain it that way ... but in theory it's close to how I'm looking at things. Mostly, I wouldn't explain it that way because I'm trying not to activate bicep or tricep muscles at all, even together. Course, I might be trying to get them to the microsecond pre-stage of movement.

In other words getting my brain to send the signal that I want to pick something up. My hand grabs the object and at the very microsecond that my biceps would physically contract to lift, I don't let them do that but keep them at that pivotal point. At the very same time, I'm getting my brain to send the signal that I want to push that object down and at the very microsecond that my triceps would physically contract, I don't let them do that but keep them at that pivotal point. Contradictory forces using both biceps and triceps, without the actual physical contraction of those localized muscle groups. But, yet not really the actual physical extension of them either.

Same concept with the ki unbendable arm trick. You imagine a flow of water going out your arm. What really makes that work? You're sending a signal to the brain to "push" something outward but not really letting your muscles contract physically to finish the job. Except, as I mention, you have to have contradictory forces going, so outward is only 1/2 of the "intent" needed.

How do the arms tie in to the body? The shoulder area. Which, for me, is a huge obstacle because of muscles wanting to physically fire and get in the way. Once localized muscle groups (for example pecs, or biceps or quads) fire and physically contract/expand/whatever, that restricts "ki flow" as some would say. Intent outwards and inwards, from and to the spine. The shoulder joint, in that contradictory force does not get pulled outward nor does it get jammed inwards by force. That shoulder joint becomes the connection point for the arms to the upper cross.

Rinse and repeat with entire body. Structure.
Muscles do not contract instantly. There must be a build up of action potential to a threshold for the muscle to contract.

"Action potentials are generated by special types of voltage-gated ion channels embedded in a cell's plasma membrane.[2] These channels are shut when the membrane potential is near the resting potential of the cell, but rapidly begin to open if the membrane potential increases to a precisely defined threshold value. When the channels open, they allow an inward flow of electrical current, which produces a further rise in the membrane potential. This then causes more channels to open, producing a greater electrical current, etc. The process proceeds explosively until all of the available ion channels are open, resulting in a large upswing in the membrane potential, often to the extent of briefly reversing its polarity......."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential

At which time the muscles contract.

David
 
Old 04-14-2010, 07:44 PM   #213
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Here is an excerpt from a video from Ken Gullette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7rn7xzD7JI

from his DVD on his website, http://www.internalfightingarts.com/...set=s:415-pm:p

David
 
Old 04-14-2010, 08:04 PM   #214
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hand to foot connections, path to the ground, hmmm sounds like stuff that's been mentioned before . .
 
Old 04-15-2010, 04:04 AM   #215
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
Just curious as to what part of Uke's performance you think the Ukes are exaggerating - the vocal grunt or the range of their movements?
Their movements.

I actually believe the grunts are real, because of the relatively quick and dramatic adjustments that were made and the fact that the uke don't appear to be the most nimble people.

Taking part 2 for example, the uke is maintaining a light perpendicular push into nage and adjusting with his circular movements. Nothing about nage's movements compels uke to do so.

None of this should come as a surprise. If you have practiced aikido seriously for more than a year and a half and cannot recognize these things, you are at a major disadvantage.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
 
Old 04-15-2010, 05:54 AM   #216
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Talking about ukes exaggerating... OMG! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXE...eature=related

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 04-15-2010, 07:48 AM   #217
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Their movements.

I actually believe the grunts are real, because of the relatively quick and dramatic adjustments that were made and the fact that the uke don't appear to be the most nimble people.

Taking part 2 for example, the uke is maintaining a light perpendicular push into nage and adjusting with his circular movements. Nothing about nage's movements compels uke to do so.

None of this should come as a surprise. If you have practiced aikido seriously for more than a year and a half and cannot recognize these things, you are at a major disadvantage.
Thank you for your reply. Your response is an excellent example that supports the position of those that state that videos of IS/IP will show you absolutely nothing about what truly is going on; especially to those not having any actual IS/IP experiences - it just has to be felt to truly understand.

IMO (which is based on actual hands-on experience with Gleason Sensei doing this exact same exercise) is that the grunt has nothing to do with uke not being nimble nor making any adjustments - if you have ever had your center taken by someone with true IS/IP, you would know exactly where those uncontrollable grunts come from - some folks will grunt louder than others, but you will grunt nevertheless

As far as your comment on part 2, IMO (again based on actual first hand experience) uke is not maintaining a light push; it is moderate to heavy. And as long as uke maintains the push (which is his role in this exercise) nage will be able to move him at will as long as nage maintains the connection to uke's center - actually, a harder push allows for a more pronounced movement of uke. This is not a technique nor a demonstration, it is simply a paired exercise to explore connections and how internal energies can be applied. Although Bill is showing movement on his part to effect Uke's movement, the exercise can also effect Uke movement from no discernible movement of nage - again, an exercise in internal application, not a focus on externals at all.

The things that are shown in this video are really some basic stuff and most people with a foot in the door of true IS/IP, can show it as well - I am certainly not an expert here, but I can do this as well as teach it; which has become evident from a couple my guys just recently demonstrating the same stuff...

I believe your last comment comes across a bit authoritative and on the personal side, so I will provide a personal response. I was going to post something on the sarcastic side here, but I think I will simply just call it as it is. I started my Aikido journey in 1976 and I see from your web site profile you started in 2000...
 
Old 04-15-2010, 10:28 AM   #218
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Greg,
I don't want anything I say to be personal.

Suggesting that 10 years of dedicated martial arts training is small compared to your 34 is silly. If you both studied medicine, you'd both be doctors. Comments like this keep our martial art in the dark ages.

The demonstration you are discussing is cooperative. Just because you don't "think" it is when you are doing it doesn't change that fact. Could he do that on someone with no Aikido training, who wasn't interested in playing along? From what I can see, no.

This could be shown on film very easily. Do it on a street corner, like David Blaine. Ask some passers by to try your "experiment". Sounds like a lot of work, and I wouldn't blame you for not trying it. But the door is open if you'd like to try.

The suggestion that this stuff is impossible to show on film leads me, as an objective person, to believe what you are talking about is false.There have been a myriad of very odd answers about this "power" that some are calling "Aiki". Answers that a skeptical person, like myself, finds preposterous.

Again my video offer stands. If you can do something on video that I can't duplicate, I'd love to see it.

 
Old 04-15-2010, 10:58 AM   #219
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Greg,
I don't want anything I say to be personal.

Suggesting that 10 years of dedicated martial arts training is small compared to your 34 is silly. If you both studied medicine, you'd both be doctors. Comments like this keep our martial art in the dark ages.

The demonstration you are discussing is cooperative. Just because you don't "think" it is when you are doing it doesn't change that fact. Could he do that on someone with no Aikido training, who wasn't interested in playing along? From what I can see, no.

This could be shown on film very easily. Do it on a street corner, like David Blaine. Ask some passers by to try your "experiment". Sounds like a lot of work, and I wouldn't blame you for not trying it. But the door is open if you'd like to try.

The suggestion that this stuff is impossible to show on film leads me, as an objective person, to believe what you are talking about is false.There have been a myriad of very odd answers about this "power" that some are calling "Aiki". Answers that a skeptical person, like myself, finds preposterous.

Again my video offer stands. If you can do something on video that I can't duplicate, I'd love to see it.
I've gone back and forth with this over the years but I think a good point is brought up...

The Western Mindset is the Scientific Method...and all Chris is asking for is that if you claim knowledge or experience in "Aiki" or "Jin" I personally don't doubt you but... for our purposes here on Aikiweb Why can't you "proof" your knowledge or at least make an attempt?

I know Mark Murry and Mike Sigman and some others have attempted to visually demonstrate IMA so that's a start but we could expand this...into a line of inquiry if we wish.

Perhaps I should write a letter to Myth Busters? LOL

William Hazen
 
Old 04-15-2010, 11:13 AM   #220
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Akuzawa example?
 
Old 04-15-2010, 11:41 AM   #221
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein writes: This could be shown on film very easily. Do it on a street corner, like David Blaine. Ask some passers by to try your "experiment". Sounds like a lot of work, and I wouldn't blame you for not trying it. But the door is open if you'd like to try.
You like to set up propositions and proposals for things that have already occurred.
Lets see:
I have done this sort of testing and much more stressful ones in gyms with power lifters, in gyms with College football players, in MMA schools, in Judo clubs, with ICMA teachers (who had no vested interest in me succeeding).
Now lets add seminars with oh...maybe 60 or so people who read these pages. At the time they were total strangers..some of whom did not like me very much at the start -several of whom openly tried to screw with me while I was just demoing a static drill, and that didn't work either. Others have seen me spar -at speed- with the same body principles maintained and intact and unwavering with experienced grapplers while they got thrown over and over and or hit and kicked without being able to effectively stop me from doing so.
Now add twin sticks, knife and sword.
Now add Ark and others to the list who have also done similar things.

The burden of proof is no longer on the men who can do these things. They have stepped up and demonstrated so many times in so many open or even hostile environments to include MMA, Shoot fighters, BJJers, Judo players, Aikido, Karate, various ICMA teachers, systema, Daito ryu, one and on, all with dozens of witnesses who openly talk about it. I think that it is the detractors counter arguments that are sounding rather hollow. It's equal to saying "I don't understand it- so it doesn't exist."
Dan
 
Old 04-15-2010, 11:54 AM   #222
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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I've gone back and forth with this over the years but I think a good point is brought up...

The Western Mindset is the Scientific Method...and all Chris is asking for is that if you claim knowledge or experience in "Aiki" or "Jin" I personally don't doubt you but... for our purposes here on Aikiweb Why can't you "proof" your knowledge or at least make an attempt?

I know Mark Murry and Mike Sigman and some others have attempted to visually demonstrate IMA so that's a start but we could expand this...into a line of inquiry if we wish.

Perhaps I should write a letter to Myth Busters? LOL

William Hazen
Hello WIlliam
To prove out something that is already well known and many people have been taught to do for hundreds of years?
It's not magic now is it?
The stuff I have seen on video is very rudimentary aynway.
As I said in an earlier post; some kid saying "if it isn't on video, it didn't happen" just validates his own stupidity from "the world revolves around me" mentality.

People who want this will find it. Comments like "I don't understand it, so it isn't real" is common enough. I like the fact that the doubters have gotten out to test things and go see many different people. Qualifying or invalidating things based on your own -lack- of experience is never a good idea, getting out there and putting your theories on the line is a good way to go.
Dan
 
Old 04-15-2010, 12:29 PM   #223
C. David Henderson
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Your response is an excellent example that supports the position of those that state that videos of IS/IP will show you absolutely nothing about what truly is going on; especially to those not having any actual IS/IP experiences - it just has to be felt to truly understand.
I can't be certain, but I didn't read this as stating "it can't be shown on video," but that video restricts what can be experienced to a 2-D visual image, and this limitation on sensory input fosters misinterpretation of what is occurring in terms of our existing preconceptions.

I think the point of the skeptics may turn on the idea that something which is supposed to make a such a fundamental difference in power and performance ought to look fundamentally different, even on video.

When things do look very different, a skeptical person may rightly wonder -- but is the difference real.

I guess that is where IHTBF.

David Henderson
 
Old 04-15-2010, 12:34 PM   #224
JW
 
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

wow, the exact features that are shown on video as demonstrations of aiki by itself (what we are going for) is being criticized as proof of the video being strongly cooperative (what we are trying to avoid).

I think for our purposes, when we make videos we should attempt to show 2 things for the sake of avoiding the "it's not real" discussion:
1. In addition to showing the demonstration/exercise working, show it fail, and
2. Demand that the uke show the effect of eliminating cooperation.

In terms of defining aiki on video, I thought Gleason Sensei's uke moving to the side was definitive.. if he had no choice but to do that. Could he disconnect or refuse to move to the side? Would be nice to see on video that he couldn't (not the purpose of Gleason's video.. but for our videos would be a good thing to keep in mind).
 
Old 04-15-2010, 01:10 PM   #225
bob_stra
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I can't be certain, but I didn't read this as stating "it can't be shown on video," but that video restricts what can be experienced to a 2-D visual image, and this limitation on sensory input fosters misinterpretation of what is occurring in terms of our existing preconceptions.

I think the point of the skeptics may turn on the idea that something which is supposed to make a such a fundamental difference in power and performance ought to look fundamentally different, even on video.

When things do look very different, a skeptical person may rightly wonder -- but is the difference real.

I guess that is where IHTBF.
I think so, too. They way I'm reading it (and btw, I'm not referencing anyone in particular) is -

What's being suggested (covertly and overtly ) is that there's no point to videos (of oneself or others) displaying these skills, if the person viewing them cannot recognize what's being shown. IOW, such videos are not informative - they're noise (at best) or misdirection (at worst).

Of course, with several avenues for hands on instruction regularly available in the US, someone serious about this stuff should be able to find one of the 'known to have skill' guys and get hands on.

If you're a martial artist with any kind of mat time, you should be able to deduce within minutes (if not seconds) whether the other guy is doing something worthwhile and novel. (I'm assuming the person in question has actual genuine intentions rather then engaging in one upmanship or self congratulation)

Seems to me something like that should be common sense. Or, as a pithy sig line would have it -

Algorithm for investigation into Internal Strength: "Are you retarded?" - YES/(NO)-----> "Then use your f**king brain"

FWIW. ICBW.
 

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