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Old 04-18-2010, 09:12 PM   #326
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to be rude here, but most of what is being said is tangent to the subject.

You guys are talking about the finer, or grosser points of alignment, and that seems like the subject matter of a different thread all together.

This should be a thread discussing "Aiki" definitions, and other related terms via video.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but we are WAY off the subject here. Siting Ueshiba, in reference to what he would or would not call "Aiki" is much closer to the main subject of this thread.
Chris, it's exactly on topic. Why do you think Tohei and Ueshiba kept showing these static examples? These static examples are the basis for the dynamic examples using the same skills; everything is interrelated.

Notice how the one-legged stance doesn't require the spine and things you asserted as your view of how these things work. You asked a question and there's your answer, if you can figure out how the one-legged stance and structure actually work. If the intent can rig that structure for stasis it can also rig force situations where when Uke attacks with a force he is immediately negated or is thrown by his own force. That's what "aiki" is. However I'm aware that a number of people reading this already knew the answer.

If you're set on the idea that "aiki" is something that must be what you've already defined it to be, that's fine. But can you explain how the one-legged stance thing works? Why do you think Tohei and Ueshiba kept showing these kinds of examples? Something to pass the time?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 09:15 PM   #327
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to be rude here, but most of what is being said is tangent to the subject.

You guys are talking about the finer, or grosser points of alignment, and that seems like the subject matter of a different thread all together.

This should be a thread discussing "Aiki" definitions, and other related terms via video.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but we are WAY off the subject here. Siting Ueshiba, in reference to what he would or would not call "Aiki" is much closer to the main subject of this thread.
On the other hand, if Aiki = unification of forces, then the one legged thing seems pretty much exactly that, done statically.

ICBW
 
Old 04-18-2010, 09:29 PM   #328
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This should be a thread discussing "Aiki" definitions, and other related terms via video.
Incidentally, even though to the untrained eye a person might think that Ikeda Sensei is doing something different than the one-legged stand photo, all of his demonstrations of aiki ... even some of the very exotic-appearing ones... are based on the same principle as the one-legged stand photo. So are the exotic-appearing ones done by Saotomi Sensei that are on film (from last Summer) on George Ledyard's site. People get hung up on the physical technique, the "timing", the entry, the turning, etc., and miss the basic principle. With the basic principle you don't have to rely on technique.

No takers on how the one-legged stance works? Tut tut.

FWIW

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-18-2010 at 09:34 PM.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 10:34 PM   #329
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Just when I thought we were making headway...

I can do the one leg stance, I did it the other day in class. Back leg first then front leg. How does it work? I align my body, or more directly the force coming into my body into the ground.

I can't do it with as hard of a push as I can the other variation I showed, but I'd guess thats just a matter of practice. Although I'm amazed at how much better my alignment has gotten over the years even though I haven't been practicing it.

So Mike you think Alignment and structure (as I call it) is "Aiki"? That is, as long as someone is pushing on you, and you physically root that into the ground, it's "Aiki". Is that what you are saying? Before you were talking about blending, which is a much better description of "Aiki" as far as I understand it. Now you are talking about rooting again.

 
Old 04-18-2010, 10:39 PM   #330
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

The Aiki starts at the connection of Tamura's hand and Tohei's wrist.



Notice the shape of Tohei's hand.


David
 
Old 04-18-2010, 10:46 PM   #331
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Notice Tohei's arm is not straight.



David
 
Old 04-18-2010, 11:05 PM   #332
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Tamura's arm is not horizontal.



David
 
Old 04-18-2010, 11:06 PM   #333
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Notice Tohei's arm is not straight.



David
Here is a better picture.


Last edited by dps : 04-18-2010 at 11:12 PM.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 11:54 PM   #334
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

By Tohei curving his wrist he is adding tension to the fascia that runs along the top of the arm

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../id/200?page=2

connects to the fascia that runs down the back of the body

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../id/160?page=2

eventually end up connected to the facia that runs along the bottom of the foot

(http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../id/160?page=5 ).

The added tension in the fascia increases its structural integrity.
The force of Tamua's push is transmitted along this fascia line to the ground.
This does not use any tension in the muscles other than the normal resting tension of the muscles.

David

Last edited by dps : 04-18-2010 at 11:57 PM.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 12:21 AM   #335
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

David, what role does the dantien play in your analysis? Is it all a matter of fascia?
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:05 AM   #336
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
David, what role does the dantien play in your analysis? Is it all a matter of fascia?
Since it is a static demo the center is where the transfer of the push from the fascia running down your back to your legs to the ground.

If you maintain whole body connection from the waist up, as your center moves so will any point on your body from the waist up, like a pantograph.

If you scribe a circle in space with your center so will any point on your body above the waist.


In the picture above when Tamura pushes on Tohei's wrist his push is adding tension to the already tense fascia adding to its structural integrity, by Tohei's design. Aiki.

Last edited by dps : 04-19-2010 at 01:19 AM.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:20 AM   #337
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I'm leery of saying anything that can later bite me in the ass - and make me appear even more of shmuck then I am - but perhaps the following can be used to illustrate the logic

Let's define aiki as 'unification of forces' (I'm aware there are other translations of ki, but simplicities sake, let's use 'force.' Unification implies an means to an end as well - neutralize, project etc)

If person A is standing on one foot and person B pushes on him (which is a demo to show the principle)...and person A doesn't topple over - then the static equilibrium must be maintained. The question is - how does A generate the counter-balancing forces? For example, if B pushes with 400Nm of force, how can A provide a counter-acting force from a compromised (ie: not in ideal alignment) position? Where is that 'strength' generated from?

If you can grok the 'how' of that, then the following should make perfect sense (even though it doesn't explicitly tell you 'how to'. Personally, I watch clips with volume off the first time - you may to try that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9TxuQ4kk

(it's all good viewing, though 3:20 may be especially obvious)

From there, agete etc should be an obvious extrapolation

As always - ICBW

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-19-2010 at 01:32 AM.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:31 AM   #338
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

[quote=Bob Strahinjevich;255884]

If person A is standing on one foot and person B pushes on him...and person A doesn't topple over - then the static equilibrium must be maintained. The question is - how does A generate the counter-balancing forces? For example, if B pushes with 400Nm of force, how can A provide a counter-acting force from a compromised (ie: not in ideal alignment) position?

[/QUOTE

If A can direct the force so that at the point of contact his foot has with the ground the forces is completely vertical he will not have to generate any counter force.

The force from B reinforces the facia's structure.


David

Last edited by dps : 04-19-2010 at 01:33 AM.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:51 AM   #339
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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If A can direct the force so that at the point of contact his foot has with the ground the forces is completely vertical he will not have to generate any counter force.

The force from B reinforces the facia's structure.

David
Be that as it may, the next person to use the 'fascia' buzzword in this discussion gets a picture of Joey Karate in his underwear as a prize

Second place - two pictures

 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:55 AM   #340
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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So Mike you think Alignment and structure (as I call it) is "Aiki"? That is, as long as someone is pushing on you, and you physically root that into the ground, it's "Aiki". Is that what you are saying? Before you were talking about blending, which is a much better description of "Aiki" as far as I understand it. Now you are talking about rooting again.
Quote:
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Technically you can call just grounding a push as "aiki" because you are essentially blending your intent-derived force with uke's.
Here's one way of putting it.
When you ground a push, you blend your force with the pusher's force so that they add up to zero. (Think vectors here.) When you 'aiki' a push, you blend your force with the pusher's force so that they add up to more than zero. How much above zero you need the sum to be, depends on what you want to do and where you're aiming the resultant vector at.
And that's why you can say that grounding is the most simple example of aiki. However, to be honest, I think that's clarifying some aspects at the expense of others, but YMMV.

p.s.: The above is also the reason that 'alignment' and 'structure' may be misleading terms. You can chance from grounding a push to 'aiki-ing' a push without overt movement. (It's all done internally! ) One's definitions of 'alignment' and 'structure' may allow for that or not.
p.p.s.: I realize that I'm saying that aiki = blending, but am not using the words as synonyms in the above post. Couldn't think of a better word.

Last edited by jss : 04-19-2010 at 01:59 AM.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:57 AM   #341
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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If A can direct the force so that at the point of contact his foot has with the ground the forces is completely vertical he will not have to generate any counter force.
But is that physically possible?
 
Old 04-19-2010, 02:20 AM   #342
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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Be that as it may, the next person to use the 'fascia' buzzword in this discussion gets a picture of Joey Karate in his underwear as a prize

Second place - two pictures

Does Joey have an older prettier sister?

David
 
Old 04-19-2010, 05:45 AM   #343
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

if you freeze the play of this video at around 12 sec mark, you will see Ikeda sensei on a one-legged stand with his structure and position completely blown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaLBx...eature=related
so for folks who think aiki is structure, you might want to revise that thinking.

btw, i have seen him, Ikeda sensei, with my own eyes did that same stunt with two big ukes hold on to him.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 07:59 AM   #344
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Wow. Some really good discussion stuff.

David S. made a couple of good observations about the forces must balance out (very correct, of course) and one about the hand (which isn't important in the way David mentioned, but worth a closer look). The one thing I'd say about the hand conjunction between Uke and Nage is that if you look at that area and look at the lean of Uke, you can get a reasonably idea of the direction of the force he's applying to Nage. Essentially, Nage has to exactly meet and reply with a force and direction exactly counter to the incoming force. If Nage does that well, the one-legged stance demonstration is obvious in roughly how it works.

But there are a number of ways that a replication of the demonstration might look (to the casual observer) like it's the same thing while in actuality it's not.

First of all, Uke can collude too much. Secondly, Nage may not really be generating his responding force from low in his body and may be adding parts of the response from a too-stiff lower back, shoulder muscle, a forward lean, and so on. If I saw 10 people do a re-enactment of that demonstration, I'd be 9.8 of them would be adding elements like I just mentioned. Few people can generate force from low in the body without being taught how.

Secondly, if you look at Nage's shoulder, there is a force there because Uke's incoming force has a downward component. How do you handle the force at the shoulder without just tensing the shoulder? That's a very important point.

BTW, this *is* just a static example allows people to look at the forces, etc., involved. Doing all of the correct things while moving and while controlling the forces from the middle would be the next big step. Doing all of these things in the midst of good Aikido technique would be a further step. But if the basics are wrong, the wrongness will carry forward into the techniques.

Joep's comment about letting forces add fruitfully to more than zero is the key to "aiki" and the key to proper technique. Take a look at some of the instances in the good Ikeda vid that Phi points to.... Ikeda uses a slight "add forces to more than zero in a bad direction for Uke" that causes uke to off-balance and drop. That is "aiki".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-19-2010, 08:03 AM   #345
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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Well, why not tell us your analysis, Greg? Look at pusher's general angle of push. Something has to meet it and from a certain direction in order to keep everything in stasis. How does pushee do it? "Extend ki"? How does it work?

Oh.... it works in the same way that Ueshiba stopped Tenryu, BTW. But if you know how it works, there are more sophisticated variations. Shioda liked to play with variations a lot. That's why he has some obscure (and often improbable in terms of actual effectiveness) on a lot of his old films.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well, I don't have a clue as to how all this is working on a sub-atomic physical level; I will leave that to Erick However, I think I can explain how Tohei would present it. First, I would like to mention that there has been a lot of posts explaining how to route uke's jin to ground. In my opinion, I think you need to bring ground to his jin to neutralize it.

In order to understand Tohei's view on this, you must understand that Tohei's Mind and Body Coordination approach was very Ki centric; every thing he talked about was centered around Ki. So, it is important to look at Tohei's view on Ki, which he viewed as an actual substance that was in all things that could be controlled by the mind. As been mentioned before, since jin is a physical manifestation of ki, the mind leads the ki that manifests into physical jin, which is uke's push in this picture.

With that in mind, we see that Uke's push comes into nage at the nexus of contact, the hand/wrist area. At this point, Nage can simply push back at the same point with his jin (a totally physical approach where the strongest will win) or he can route uke's jin to ground with structural alignment (which can be physical as well) or he can bring his jin to Uke to neutralize uke's jin before it enters nage. At this point, Nage can connect with uke and take his center to help establish a neutral balance between the two. Also, to do this with Tohei's model, nage blends with uke's ki and simply extends it along with his own ki from his center back to uke at the nexus - this is what I think is being shown with Mike's line from center to hand.

This can also be accomplished by simply extending ki from your center into uke's center and then trough uke to some point beyond him - this concept is what was taught when performing techniques. Some say to just extend ki into uke's center to take it, but I was taught to extend trough uke, this is much more powerful when performing a technique because uke does not have a clue as to what is happening because he can not feel anything to resist.

So now the question is how to extend ki - sorry, but I tried to explain that in another post without too much success. However, I think the main point here is to realize that there is more going on that just the physical body alignments to this push and that there is an equally important mental part that not too many get into with these posts about Aiki IS/IP, or as I call it, Stuff -

As others say: FWIW and YMMV

Greg
 
Old 04-19-2010, 08:18 AM   #346
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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This can also be accomplished by simply extending ki from your center into uke's center and then trough uke to some point beyond him - this concept is what was taught when performing techniques. Some say to just extend ki into uke's center to take it, but I was taught to extend trough uke, this is much more powerful when performing a technique because uke does not have a clue as to what is happening because he can not feel anything to resist.

So now the question is how to extend ki - sorry, but I tried to explain that in another post without too much success. However, I think the main point here is to realize that there is more going on that just the physical body alignments to this push and that there is an equally important mental part that not too many get into with these posts about Aiki IS/IP, or as I call it, Stuff -
OK, but regardless of all the ki jargon, these things ultimately can all be analyzed in physical terms. I can personally to a lot trickier things than we're talking about in this picture and I can shift forces and directions at will (and more tricks yet), but the key to understanding and to set up a basis for definitions is to find a common parlance. I think western physics is better suited than the ki paradigm, overall.

If someone says something is "ki" or "jin" or etc., I first try to make that person tell me in some way at least vaguely related to western physics what they're talking about. Then, up to a point, I can communicate. It's better in person because then you can occasionally stop and say, "Show me what you're talking about".

And many people theorize with little or no real abilities, too... that's a big problem. Vague terms like "extend ki" from someone who only has poor skills are meaningless. Someone who has good skills should be able to logically describe at least the general elements of what is going on in terms that other people can understand.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-19-2010, 08:23 AM   #347
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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You're missing the point and you didn't really address *how* to do anything at all.
"How" is simply sending the push elsewhere -- which takes practice -- and on which there is, I think, no debate. While a counter-push would indeed end the push elsewhere also, and WOULD be a vector, a counter push exposes your structure to the push and sufficient impulse will topple you. A response in pure shear does not expose your structure and sends the entirety of the push elsewhere.

"What" to practice takes understanding. Once you understand it, Shear can be seen, felt and understood -- and practiced. Shear is a systemic condition caused by applied force -- but not an applied force itself. I am saying nothing new, nor indeed different from what you intend with your explanations of jin etc. -- I am simply saying it ina way that doesn't involve the mediation of three languages and two foreign cultures to do it.

The trick is to see and follow shape of the resulting condition without having to add force -- or conversely, to apply just a little force to create that systemic condition you wish to exploit, and then exploiting that -- not adding more force.

The last bit in Ikeda's video -- starting at 00:57 -- he creates the shear without almost no force in their connections at all -- which requires a generating movement. If they had been pushing into the connection, he would have buckled them where they stood with an almost negligible wrist twitch -- because they created the shear he then used -- requiring almost nothing at all from him but redirection.

The bit at 00:12 - 00:15 he exaggerates to show the shape of the dynamic that redirects it -- which he usually employs in a sharply compressed pulse into a live connection that involves barely any movement at all. Compare what Gleason did in the expansive shape responding to the chest push.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Incidentally, even though to the untrained eye a person might think that Ikeda Sensei is doing something different than the one-legged stand photo, all of his demonstrations of aiki ... even some of the very exotic-appearing ones... are based on the same principle as the one-legged stand photo.
I believe I said that.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 08:47 AM   #348
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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"How" is simply sending the push elsewhere -- which takes practice -- and on which there is, I think, no debate.
The question is how, though. While we're talking about "forces", it sounds simple, but it's not.
Quote:
"What" to practice takes understanding. Once you understand it, Shear can be seen, felt and understood -- and practiced. Shear is a systemic condition caused by applied force -- but not an applied force itself. I am saying nothing new, nor indeed different from what you intend with your explanations of jin etc. -- I am simply saying it ina way that doesn't involve the mediation of three languages and two foreign cultures to do it.
I understand quite well what shear is, but I'd prefer to keep the discussion in as simple terms as possible. While a shear is applicable in some of the discussions, in reality more happens than that, so rather than get into a needlessly intricate description (like a college sophomore writing a wordy English paper), I'd prefer to talk about forces and vectors. Sort of a minimalist set of terms that can be enjoyed by the most people. [/quote]
The trick is to see and follow shape of the resulting condition without having to add force -- or conversely, to apply just a little force to create that systemic condition you wish to exploit, and then exploiting that -- not adding more force. [/quote] "to apply just a little force"... and "not adding more force"? You can't do both. Besides, most times you add a little bit of force in technique, even though ideally it's minimal, in good technique. The "how" to source and generate forces is critical to the discussion. There's no way to stand and present a shear without generating some forces within the body, so it's simpler to just say "forces".
Quote:
The last bit in Ikeda's video -- starting at 00:57 -- he creates the shear without almost no force in their connections at all -- which requires a generating movement. If they had been pushing into the connection, he would have buckled them where they stood with an almost negligible wrist twitch -- because they created the shear he then used -- requiring almost nothing at all from him but redirection.
So how do you redirect while "sinking your ki"? Then how do you move dynamically while doing those things?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-19-2010, 10:34 AM   #349
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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.... the key to understanding and to set up a basis for definitions is to find a common parlance. I think western physics is better suited than the ki paradigm, overall.
Amen and Hallelujah. FWIW, vectors, historically, are degenerated forms of Hamilton's quaternions. Assymmetries matter because the order of action changes the result (non-commutative):

Quote:
Quote:
A simple exercise of applying two rotations to an asymmetrical object (e.g., a book) can explain it. First, rotate a book 90 degrees clockwise around the z axis. Next flip it 180 degrees around the x axis and memorize the result. Then restore the original orientation, so that the book title is again readable, and apply those rotations in opposite order. Compare the outcome to the earlier result. This shows that, in general, the composition of two different rotations around two distinct spatial axes will not commute.
Mostly, vectors work the same in the case of gross rotations -- but not in dealing with assymmetries, (like, say, gravity) -- or at cusps or reversal points. Like navigating close to a pole -- the grid references change scale (or sign in the case of assymetry) too fast to disregard and small changes in inputs have increasingly disproportionate outputs. Since that area of critical change is what we are interested in -- it makes sense that vectors, as such, become less and less useful at those critical points -- even though they are related.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-19-2010, 10:35 AM   #350
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

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OK, but regardless of all the ki jargon, these things ultimately can all be analyzed in physical terms. I can personally to a lot trickier things than we're talking about in this picture and I can shift forces and directions at will (and more tricks yet), but the key to understanding and to set up a basis for definitions is to find a common parlance. I think western physics is better suited than the ki paradigm, overall.
I can't disagree with this, but since there is no agreed upon definition of ki in western physics, I can only relate to what was taught to me and how it was presented. Sorry, but I am afraid I will have to leave the physics to those much smarter than me in that area - like Erick

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If someone says something is "ki" or "jin" or etc., I first try to make that person tell me in some way at least vaguely related to western physics what they're talking about. Then, up to a point, I can communicate. It's better in person because then you can occasionally stop and say, "Show me what you're talking about".
OK - for Jin, I look at it like this: " basic jin derives it's power from either the solid support of the ground (up, opening power) or from the weight of the body (down, closing power)." - more or less a physical force manifested by ki/chi that can be felt. As for Ki, please see my post above - if there was an agreed upon definition for ki, I don't think we would be having this discussion so, I have to look at it from Tohei's perspective if I am following his model. Absolutely agree 'it is better in person' - I believe that is an underlying theme throughout this thread as well as other threads on this "Stuff"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And many people theorize with little or no real abilities, too... that's a big problem. Vague terms like "extend ki" from someone who only has poor skills are meaningless. Someone who has good skills should be able to logically describe at least the general elements of what is going on in terms that other people can understand.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Fair enough statement, but to present an extend ki process is not that easy, it just is not that black and white of a description since it is very subjective within the mental realm - I mean, just how do you explain to someone in detail the process on how you think. With that said, I will try to elaborate as best I can. Since I use Tohei's model, I first visualize ki as a substance and try to see it in my mind's eye where it exists within my body as well as external to my body. Since the mind can control ki, the next step is to use mental intent to actually move and project ki internally as well as externally; again it is important to actually visualize this happening when doing it. Of course, you have to follow Tohei's other principles of Mind and Body Coordination at the same time. This is basically the mental process I follow when extending ki as taught by Tohei. Now as far as that actually being the way everything is working within the definitions of western physics? I have no clue nor I am qualified to even speculate to any deep extent. All I know is that I have had positive physical and verbal feedback during in person exchanges with people that had no idea I was extending ki as taught by Tohei - all they thought was that I was using mental intent in the exercises since that was the term used in those exercises. So, it appears that extend ki is synonymous with mental intent in this case; which now leads to the question: "How do you and others define and use mental intent?"

Oh, one other minor thing about the picture I thought I would bring up: I do not think Tohei is the nage in this picture. I initially never did, but when Dave called him Tohei, I took a closer look and thought well, maybe due to a bad angle - but I still was not sold on it - so I found some more pictures at this link: http://www.scarsdaleaikido.com/files...d_and_Body.pdf

If you look at fig 4e, you will see a picture of nage in our one leg push picture sitting in the center of this picture. These pictures all look to be taken about the same time as our one leg push test. Now look at figs 6, 7, 9, and 10 where you definitely see Tohei all in black and the guy is fig 4e is definitely not Tohei. Not a big issue, just thought it should be mentioned for the record, etc...

Greg
 

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