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Old 04-18-2010, 02:39 PM   #301
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Mike's point about vectors (though perhaps useful by analogy) I have disagreed with because it is quite demonstrably wrong. The key thing about aiki mechanics is that they are NOT reversible by merely opposing when applied. If it were merely vectors, as Mike's training image suggests, they would be reversible -- because vectors commute ( i.e. -- it does not matter in which order they are applied -- the end result does not change) A larger vector can always counter or reverse another vector. Aiki cannot be countered that way, hence, aiki does not involve vectors.
[snip]
I understand why he uses them, and analogy is useful, as long as it remains analogy. Having said all of that, the concept of jin path tracks very closely to the idea of a funicular load curve.
I think the problem here is that whatever it is that you're doing, it's not what I'm doing. Statics is a great way to look at these things and Ueshiba and Tohei both spent a lot of time showing static examples of how these skills (at a basic level) work. Take a look at all the examples of static "ki demonstrations" they both used. If static analyses are just not the right thing to do, tell it to Ueshiba.

I have a pretty good idea where you're hung up, after watching the trend of your math/physical examples for while, and I think you'd be extremely happy with Chen Xin's book, "Chen Family Taijiquan". When it comes to reeling-silk and some of the physical mechanics, I think you will have found your Holy Grail because it addresses (obscurely, unfortunately) many of the same things you're interested in.

The problem is that those aspects of ki mechanics (remember, I've always stipulated that I broke the analysis of ki mechanics into two parts for ease of discussion and "jin" is only part of the story) we have never really broached on this forum. I'll cut to the chase by saying that it's impossible to discuss that aspect of body mechanics if you don't understand the part that starts off with simple vector analysis (vectors are very good for incremental analysis, too, BTW). If you understood the jin/kokyu part, I think I would have caught it after all these years, because I've looked for it.

Over the years a number of people have suggested that you meet up with someone with some skills (of whatever level) and get the conversation started. Frankly, as long as I know (from experience) it takes to get good skills, I'm sort of bemused at how many people sit perched on this forum thinking that this is just some sort of "once I see it, I'll know it and have it" exercise.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 02:58 PM   #302
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Excerpt from the article,

"The Mechanics of Martial Arts"

"The symbol of strength for western culture is the Greek god, Atlas. After a mythical war between the Olympians and Titans, Atlas, one of the losers, was condemned to stand as a pillar and support the universe on his shoulders for all eternity (Figure 1).
ImageFigure 1. Atlas holding the world

Following this model, strength, in western thought, is characterized as a rigid, unyielding and unmovable column. Western thought has the rigid column, the lever, and brute force, all concepts familiar to us since childhood when we built our first stack of blocks, rode a seesaw and smashed our first toy. In eastern thought, strength comes from deep within and is flexible, yielding and mobile; it flows. This difference in philosophy of strength is expressed in a difference in approach to combat sports. But eastern philosophy has not had a physical model for martial arts that a western trained mind could wrap a thought around. That is, not until biotensegrity."


"Much of what seems unexplainable about the forces generated in martial arts are readily explained when the body is understood as a biotensegrity structure rather than as the common western post and lintel model."
http://www.biotensegrity.com/martial_arts_mechanics.php

David

Last edited by dps : 04-18-2010 at 03:02 PM.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 03:06 PM   #303
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
On a 1-to-10 I'd only give that explanation a 5. I didn't want to start a tangent on reeling-silk, BTW, although some years from now the larger conversation in Aikido will have to deal with it peripherally. RS is not completely in the Aikido bailiwick (although it's not completely missing, either, IMO).

The overarching point in my comment to Erick is that I think his definition of "aiki" is just too far removed from the discussion the discussion. "Aiki" can be demonstrated statically, so that's the best place, IMO, to start the definitions. Some of Mark Murray's attempts to show skills would fall into good 'video definition' categories if, in my opinion, he could get away from the very subjective descriptions he attaches to his actions.

I still like the one-legged-stance picture of the Tohei students. A very great bit of information can be deduced from that picture:

http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

Here, I'll kick off the analysis:

http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPush.jpg

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 03:13 PM   #304
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply; please call me "David."

I think I understand what you are saying based on the distinctions you've made, not only here, but in a related thread.

I'm glad, for one, that I've gotten clear enough on what you mean that I feel I get what you're saying.

I don't know what to call it, except perhaps,"takemusu aiki," but your comments make me recall footage of O Sensei in randori (I recall in particular a stop-motion time analysis someone did that got posted on Aikido Journal).

That level of art, in any event, does seem almost magical in combining power and movement in the midst of chaos.

My guess is that using different "movement grammars," the best martial artists develop overlapping abilities on this level.

Ironic, in a way.

My sense is that what you mean by "ju" involves the sort of body skills that good grapplers tend to share. I think those skills can overlap with the skills the IP/IS adhernent would consider constituent parts of the skill sets they aim to develop.

BTW, my sincere thanks to you and Mark for posting videos.

Regards,

David Henderson
 
Old 04-18-2010, 05:16 PM   #305
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
If you're referring to this image...
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

...then, I think the one standing on one leg is Iwao Tamura.
Ding ding!

Sorry to resurrect this older aspect of the thread, but since the image has come up again... Yes, it is Tamura. I spoke with Rod Kobayashi's family including someone who trained a lot with Tohei back in Japan at that time and they said that yes, it looked a lot like Kobayashi but it was in fact another student of Tohei's -- Tamura (who was a good friend of Kobayashi as well as an aside). They also talked about dusting off and working on some of the more varied ki tests they used to do "back in the day". So I'm hoping to see more sometime soon.

Just fwiw. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion. All in the interest of historic accuracy and credit where credit is due.

It is Tamura.

 
Old 04-18-2010, 05:53 PM   #306
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

Here, I'll kick off the analysis:

http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPush.jpg

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Gee, Mike, how does that line get from the center straight to the hand without going through the shoulder and arm?

Greg
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:09 PM   #307
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I was thinking about the other part of it. How is the force conducted along the leg to the foot? What part of the foot should bear the pressure?
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:18 PM   #308
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Gee, Mike, how does that line get from the center straight to the hand without going through the shoulder and arm?

Greg
i know you're joking but....

The way the drawing is shown has meaning, in part with respect to what the pusher is feeling (and its relationship to how its being generated).

So why might that drawing bypass the shoulder and arm and go directly to the hand?
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:23 PM   #309
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

In that example, the pusher can feel the difference between the pushee using his shoulder or not. What he should feel, ideally, is a path of force rising from the ground--a groundpath, in Mike's terms.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:27 PM   #310
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

The red line is the line from the ground to the hand. The force to the hand from the middle is a vector force. How do you utilize the force from the ground in this way and control it? How do you bypass the shoulder? What happens to the "stable base" you'd normally need and want in a 2-legged stance? Why don't you need one now? How does the upper-body 'structure' support what's going on?

Here's a chance for all the people that already know these things to show how well they know them.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:32 PM   #311
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

Here's a chance for all the people that already know these things to show how well they know them.

Mike Sigman
what is this? a pop quiz? do i get to graduate afterward or have to go back one grade?
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:33 PM   #312
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think the problem here is that whatever it is that you're doing, it's not what I'm doing.
You seem very sure of that for someone who says I can't judge by what you write what it is you are doing -- sauce for the goose, etc. I have seen several of your videos, and they are what my concepts -- developed from my own observations -- (over the last twenty five years of training) lead me to expect. Certainly, I find nothing surprising -- but in fairness you illustrate basics -- I just have a different way of looking at the way those can be described.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Statics is a great way to look at these things and Ueshiba and Tohei both spent a lot of time showing static examples of how these skills (at a basic level) work. Take a look at all the examples of static "ki demonstrations" they both used. If static analyses are just not the right thing to do, tell it to Ueshiba.
Like I said, it is useful, but as analogy not actually as descriptive. It is perfectly useful (though essentially false) to assume the same kind of static balance about lift, drag and thrust equilibrium on a wing as well -- until you are close to the stall margin -- in which the useful assumption and the actual fact collide with unpleasant results.

We are talking about something more akin to that kind of dynamic equilibrium than the static load on a cathedral buttress. In point of fact, the purpose of the discussion is about making such ideas about support -- and the structures they rely on -- collapse catastrophically.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'll cut to the chase by saying that it's impossible to discuss that aspect of body mechanics if you don't understand the part that starts off with simple vector analysis (vectors are very good for incremental analysis, too, BTW). If you understood the jin/kokyu part, I think I would have caught it after all these years, because I've looked for it.
You assume too much. I have moved somewhat past incremental analysis, to simply improvising on the spot according to these principles that I describe. Personally, I don't see a distinction in what you have pointed out -- nor in any of your videos -- to address the thread topic specifically. Please feel free to point out one that I have missed that illustrates your point or my deficiency in your eyes more particularly.

But more to the point -- I have made a conscious point not to try to delve into your uses of jin as an operative concept -- not because it is not sensible (it is, and very deep in the kind of traditions of correlation data I spoke of earlier), but simply because it would only substitute the same basic category of understanding as the Japanese have -- but in Chinese terminology. In other words, nothing new is to be gained in that effort -- and much is to be gained in a true analytic description. The point was never the analysis itself, but to make a sound foundation for a proper Western understanding to describe and extend physical intuitions developed in training (and to check them).

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:36 PM   #313
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

don't forget, the red arrow go in the opposite direction and meet the green. it's not just accepting/receiving.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 06:55 PM   #314
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what is this? a pop quiz? do i get to graduate afterward or have to go back one grade?
No, let some of the people who use terms like "extend ki", etc., have a chance to objectively think about what is going on. There are people who 'know good internal strength when they see it'... here's a chance to objectively figure out just the basics. Here's a chance for people to explain how or why they think of something like "six directions" for something this simple. And so on. Because the two people in the figure are not moving, then all forces cancel out... should be an easy figure, but there are a number of very deep details that can be inferred just from that one picture.

There's a reason for the adage about "steal this technique". It means that you have to figure out what is really happening; i.e., a person has to be smart enough to figure these things out traditionally. And this is a classic situation where people can show if they're adept at stealing techniques.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 04-18-2010, 07:10 PM   #315
Mike Sigman
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You seem very sure ...
I am. So are a number of people, Erick. If you have moved so far beyond all this, then I'm sure you can do a very nice breakdown of the one-legged stand photo and what it infers. It infers a lot. The only problem is that if someone doesn't really understand simple jin/kokyu, how it's done, and the other questions I posed (there are even more), then they're only going to be able to fumble around.

Essentially, you think Aikido is about moving. Think back to Ueshiba and Tenryu in the static situation.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 07:17 PM   #316
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Hey Mike,
What were you referencing when you said Ueshiba called his distance throws "ki throws"?

 
Old 04-18-2010, 07:17 PM   #317
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The red line is the line from the ground to the hand. The force to the hand from the middle is a vector force.
No. It isn't a vector and it isn't a force. The vertical shear resulting from the connection creates a pseudo-vector, you could call it, but it simply is the sum of both the weights, his push and the resultant shear -- not of two forces, and thus not of two independent vectors -- the shear exists only as long and in proportion to the amount he pushes and you control the eccentricity of the connection. Control the eccentricity and so control his attack. The amount of applied displacement is very slight -- and grossly disproportionate to the shear that results -- and vectors simply don't do that.

To topple the target requires (in your diagram) a counterclockwise moment about the point of support. There is no countering force other than gravity and there is no counter vector -- because the perpendicular shear keeps the push from being applied into developing an actual toppling moment. Vertical (more properly perpendicular) shear at the connection "eats" the applied moment of the push into another plane of action, and draws the moving side out of equilibrium -- and it does not matter whether the shear is up or down (or sideways for that matter) -- or -- all of the above cyclically in sharp alternation. See Ikeda. The latter can also be a larger but partial cycle in the shear plane, creating a unresolved torque in the pushing arm along the line of push -- which is what Gleason is doing in that video with the push to his chest.

The shoulder isn't doing anything except being a hinge -- it's good at that.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-18-2010 at 07:24 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 07:32 PM   #318
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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... I'm sure you can do a very nice breakdown of the one-legged stand photo and what it infers. It infers a lot. ... Essentially, you think Aikido is about moving. Think back to Ueshiba and Tenryu in the static situation.
I appreciate your confidence. It implies -- but you infer -- and the same applies to Ueshiba. Compressing a connection and shearing it is the same as being pushed and shearing it -- which is the same as tautening a connection and shearing it. Compression or tension are the same for responding in shear because shear always has both -- always -- inyo-ho -- perpendicular to one another -- juuji, and when they reach a physical limit or discontinuity they simply swap signs -- kokyu ryoku.
.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 07:55 PM   #319
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
i know you're joking but....

The way the drawing is shown has meaning, in part with respect to what the pusher is feeling (and its relationship to how its being generated).

So why might that drawing bypass the shoulder and arm and go directly to the hand?
Yeah, that's me question, how does the pushee do that ...
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:00 PM   #320
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

Here's a chance for all the people that already know these things to show how well they know them.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Well, I think Erick would just lay some type of quantum formula on us - I think it is just fricking magic - but Tohei might just call it ki...

Last edited by gregstec : 04-18-2010 at 08:02 PM.
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:03 PM   #321
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
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No. It isn't a vector and it isn't a force. The vertical shear resulting from the connection creates a pseudo-vector, you could call it, but it simply is the sum of both the weights, his push and the resultant shear -- not of two forces, and thus not of two independent vectors -- the shear exists only as long and in proportion to the amount he pushes and you control the eccentricity of the connection. Control the eccentricity and so control his attack. The amount of applied displacement is very slight -- and grossly disproportionate to the shear that results -- and vectors simply don't do that.

To topple the target requires (in your diagram) a counterclockwise moment about the point of support. There is no countering force other than gravity and there is no counter vector -- because the perpendicular shear keeps the push from being applied into developing an actual toppling moment. Vertical (more properly perpendicular) shear at the connection "eats" the applied moment of the push into another plane of action, and draws the moving side out of equilibrium -- and it does not matter whether the shear is up or down (or sideways for that matter) -- or -- all of the above cyclically in sharp alternation. See Ikeda. The latter can also be a larger but partial cycle in the shear plane, creating a unresolved torque in the pushing arm along the line of push -- which is what Gleason is doing in that video with the push to his chest.

The shoulder isn't doing anything except being a hinge -- it's good at that.
Let me table this one for the moment, Erick. It seems to be mostly chaff in terms of the real "what's going on" analysis and quite frankly you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I'll come back to it sometime, perhaps. You're missing the point and you didn't really address *how* to do anything at all.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:20 PM   #322
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yeah, that's me question, how does the pushee do that ...
Well, why not tell us your analysis, Greg? Look at pusher's general angle of push. Something has to meet it and from a certain direction in order to keep everything in stasis. How does pushee do it? "Extend ki"? How does it work?

Oh.... it works in the same way that Ueshiba stopped Tenryu, BTW. But if you know how it works, there are more sophisticated variations. Shioda liked to play with variations a lot. That's why he has some obscure (and often improbable in terms of actual effectiveness) on a lot of his old films.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:21 PM   #323
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey Mike,
What were you referencing when you said Ueshiba called his distance throws "ki throws"?
It's a tangent to the subject, Chris. I'll try to p.m. you something when I get a minute (maybe tomorrow if not tonight).

Best.

Mike
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:37 PM   #324
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but most of what is being said is tangent to the subject.

You guys are talking about the finer, or grosser points of alignment, and that seems like the subject matter of a different thread all together.

This should be a thread discussing "Aiki" definitions, and other related terms via video.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but we are WAY off the subject here. Siting Ueshiba, in reference to what he would or would not call "Aiki" is much closer to the main subject of this thread.

 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:51 PM   #325
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Re: Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

You think that's off topic? How's this< for off topic? Mad scientist analyzing groundpath forces, upside down, with furry little cats and rats with magnets on their feet. booyaah. offtopic + 10
 

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