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Old 04-12-2002, 05:15 PM   #1
Kat.C
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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How long is a pin effective?

I am curious as to how long you can safely keep someone pinned for. Will a pin keep someone subdued indefinitely if done correctly? I am not, by the way running around continually wondering if I will be attacked. On the other hand, having been attacked more than once I do not have the "it won't ever happen to me" attitude. In another thread people are posting against using 'finishing techniques'. As I was taught them, they were not necessarily to kill but to prevent a subsequent attack eg. knock them out or break something. So if you do not do this, will a pin keep someone subdued until help arrives?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:44 PM   #2
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
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Re: How long is a pin effective?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
I am curious as to how long you can safely keep someone pinned for. Will a pin keep someone subdued indefinitely if done correctly?
Hello Kathryn,

Yes, if you do it correctly, effectively, efficiently, tightly, you should be able to apply it indefinitely. I would add one more attribute to a pin though. Once you do apply the pin with all the previously mentioned attributes, you should endevor to apply a pin with the intent of 'not allowing the attacker to get up' instead of trying to 'hold them down'. I know the two sound the same, but the difference is 'holding them down' causes you to exert energy ...eventually you'll tucker out, and they'll be able to get up! If you're mearly 'keeping them from getting up' you are NOT exerting any energy ...you're using posture, body mechanics, leverage to do all the work, allowing you to keep them in the pin indefinitely!

...you might also consider ending the technique in a throw rather than a take down! You won't have to worry about keeping them in a pin or using finishing techniques ...the floor/wall/bar/car will be doing both of those things for you simultaneously!

...just my slant on the topic!

Last edited by Brian Vickery : 04-13-2002 at 10:37 AM.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 04-13-2002, 03:47 AM   #3
Jim ashby
Dojo: Phoenix Coventry
Location: Coventry, England
Join Date: Mar 2001
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How long

I agree with Brian, a pin will last as long as you need it. I have always been taught that the purpose of an immobilisation (pin) is to immobilise. Once uke is immobilised tori should be totally in control and using no energy, he/she should be able to be there all day.
Have fun

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:44 AM   #4
Greg Jennings
Dojo: WPAFB JiuJitsu Group
Location: Springboro, OH
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Re: How long is a pin effective?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
I am curious as to how long you can safely keep someone pinned for. Will a pin keep someone subdued indefinitely if done correctly? I am not, by the way running around continually wondering if I will be attacked. On the other hand, having been attacked more than once I do not have the "it won't ever happen to me" attitude.
You can pin someone for as long as you can keep them from regaining their center/balance.

At our dojo, the more senior students practice with active resistance. Uke will absolutely struggle to reverse shite/tori/nage. This, of course, doesn't go on forever...we'd only practice one rep per class.

You discover some amazing things once you start training this way. E.g., "My God, my x-kyo/x-nage doesn't work!"

If aikido as I've seen it practiced across the country is really missing something, it's missing a little honest introspection.

If you train with this honesty, I think you ultimately end up with a better attitude.

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-13-2002, 11:12 AM   #5
nikonl
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 130
China
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Hi Kat, since your answers have already been answered, i would like to know more about your attacks. mind posting it in my 'real life stories' thread?? hehe

Thanx
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:31 PM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Re: How long is a pin effective?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
I am curious as to how long you can safely keep someone pinned for. Will a pin keep someone subdued indefinitely if done correctly? I am not, by the way running around continually wondering if I will be attacked. On the other hand, having been attacked more than once I do not have the "it won't ever happen to me" attitude. In another thread people are posting against using 'finishing techniques'. As I was taught them, they were not necessarily to kill but to prevent a subsequent attack eg. knock them out or break something. So if you do not do this, will a pin keep someone subdued until help arrives?
It very much depends on what pin you are talking about. Some of the control moves we use in Aikido are also "submission" holds. This basically means that if the opponent resists you can inflict some level of pain and perhaps injury on that opponent. But there are a number of pinning techniques which are simple immobilizations. These were never designed to control an opponent indefinitely. Rather they were designed to control an attacker just long enough for the defender to access his backup weapon and finish his enemy.

If you want to know which is which amongst the many pinning techniques, get a judo or jiu jutsu practitioner and try out the pins. Some are techniques that will quite simply prodce injury if resisted. Others will work for a while but a trained ground fighter will eventually squirm around and find a way to escape. That is important in a sport context but not so much in a martial context. If you can deliver one or a series of effective strikes to the opponent before he can make a shift to offensive technique against you then the pin is effective.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:53 PM   #7
Kat.C
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Originally posted by nikon
Hi Kat, since your answers have already been answered, i would like to know more about your attacks. mind posting it in my 'real life stories' thread?? hehe

Thanx
Well I did post about one of my attacks in another thread; Is it the fighter or stlye that matters. As for the other times I don't imagine anyone wants to here about them. Once by an ex-boyfriend, later by a roomate. No one trying to kill me, just to hurt. All were before I started karate so I have no "wow this stuff really works!" tales to tell.

I just thought I should add that a wooden hanger makes for an interesting weapon.

Last edited by Kat.C : 04-13-2002 at 01:26 PM.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:16 PM   #8
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
You discover some amazing things once you start training this way. E.g., "My God, my x-kyo/x-nage doesn't work!"

If aikido as I've seen it practiced across the country is really missing something, it's missing a little honest introspection.

If you train with this honesty, I think you ultimately end up with a better attitude.
Amen!
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Old 04-28-2002, 01:23 AM   #9
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
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This maybe a bit late, but...

A good pin would usually hold down an assailant. Most of this works out during training where uke-nage relationship persists.

But in a fight, desperate ppl will do desperate things. Being pinned down while awaiting the arrival of cops and such will spur some ppl into survival mode. They might get hurt in the process of escaping, but they might also hurt you in the process.

The pins currently learned in the aikido I practise are generally very humane. They stop most aikidokas but they really won't stop a very very determined someone. You may choose to employ a more aggressive pin for real life purposes instead. Such as those used in the pre-war style of aikido for instance. Its just a modification of the existing pins anyway. The pins generally have a lock on the joints and this locks are employed all the way.

If you let up on the locks, the breathing space will allow someone to escape. Anyway those are my honest opinion thats all.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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