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Old 03-29-2010, 07:34 PM   #76
JO
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I know exactly what this teacher is doing. I could duplicate it as well if I had the same ukes. These ukes have been trained to a) amplify the wave energy as they feel it and to b) dissolve their own structures and let the wave flop them around. I can guarantee that it wouldn't look anything like that if I grabbed him.
.
So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:38 PM   #77
dps
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
. Not everyone can get otherwise sensible people to suspend their common sense like this.
The same could be said for people posting on internet martial art forums.

David
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Old 03-30-2010, 05:45 AM   #78
Michael Fitzgerald
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

The third fellow, I couldn't go past that.

What a load of rubbish.
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:48 AM   #79
DH
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.
Depending on the quality of the training and then the experience of the attacker:
1. It wouldn't "look like" much of anything- as most of those "aiki" moves are not aiki and don't really do much of anything to people.
2. The defender would simply get punched in the face, kicked or thrown down- as from what I can see none of them have the body connection to do much about that to defend themselves.
3. The attacker would succeed in dominating the space and the defender
4. It would lead to actual fighting

Other options would include
5. The defender having IP/ Aiki so the attacker would get neutralized and have to disconnect himself and attack again or he would himself get handled by the defender.
Examples: People trying to punch someone with IP/Aiki (who actually knows and is experienced in fighting with IP/aiki) and they are stopped and then stuck and weighted or lifted while they are getting pummeled with punches and kicks or else getting thrown. If they disconnect, (again depending on the skills of the one with IP.aiki) the defender can wait and mentally enter or fit in to their moves and start the sequence over, or they can go on the offensive and create openings and start the sequence over.
6. If you are so inclined you can do a push hand nuetralizing game (not my cup of tea) where both parties get to neutralize and play the absorbing, changing energy, game.
7. Or you can do a Judo/ jujutsu (no kicking and punching) mutual changing energy/positional dominance game.

In any event, with the above (5-7), the attacker, doesn't offer an attack and then "receive it" instead he attacks, neutralizes your response and continues the attack over and over. Note* all of the above can be done without kicks and punches in an aikido format that still keeps the exchange real enough. That would depend on an understanding of positioning and entry and dominating the space and intent of the attacker(no I do not mind some flakey nonsense, I mean real time control of intent to attack).

It is worth truly watching the body mechanics of the attacker in MA training; nine times out of ten you see the energy level and focus shift in the attacker instantly after the launch of the attack and he "becomes" uke-body-man-meaning their bodies get organized, or "set up" to receive.

It is much harder to throw someone keeping their wits and their intent actively focused or trying to re-engage. The body dynamic is totally different then. My favorite response to Uke disease is "If I offered you a million dollars to fight me and defeat me-right now- would you behave like that? No? Good, then change your mind about what it is you're doing.
There are ways to allow the defender to practice perfecting his waza or body skills by semi cooperating, and then upping-the-anti once in a while, and then moving on to full resistance and changing. Unfortunately IMO, you need teachers who can actually fight with their skills to pull that one off. I simply wouldn't trust the majority of Martial Art teachers to be able to do that. Which is the reason why so many martial artists look like they do, and typically fail under serious pressure.
I think the way ukemi is done in various arts is the single greatest failure in understanding in the martial arts. It has created an artifice and false feedback loop that there is almost no recovery from. Truly "active" training is the best training for all parties concerned. Understanding and training to do that with a connected and trained body, and then with an active mind/body connection is-in my opinion-martial arts on an entirely different level then most of what I have seen or participated in.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-30-2010 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:14 AM   #80
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Michael Fitzgerald wrote: View Post
The third fellow, I couldn't go past that.

What a load of rubbish.
They are bad uke Michael. Not sure about the sensei in question. Or it's magic!

Tom [Fancy meeting U here!]
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:09 PM   #81
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I know exactly what this teacher is doing. I could duplicate it as well if I had the same ukes. These ukes have been trained to a) amplify the wave energy as they feel it and to b) dissolve their own structures and let the wave flop them around. I can guarantee that it wouldn't look anything like that if I grabbed him.

These ukes have been trained to make their teacher look good. It's not that he isn't running the energy, you can see it if you know what you are looking at, it's just that what he is doing would not have that result if he worked with anyone who had his own understanding of structure. This is the same stuff as Watanabe Sensei's displays when he is throwing his ukes from ten feet away. The ukes have been trained to recognize and respond to changes in the direction of the teacher's intention. It might be an interesting display of sensitivity but it isn't martial arts at all. This is both sensitive and reactive. What we strive for is sensitivity without reactivity.
This is the best post I have read in a while. I also think that Ledyard Sensei's last sentence is so true it should be a poem hanging on a scroll in every dojo. The hyper-reactivity of the students to the demonstration is shameful because they are removing credibility from the video (the instructor's movement didn't look terrible...just absolutely fake in context). What [desirable] benefit was expected from the video is lost because of the stunts.

The worst part was another video from the guy popped up after the first ended. AHHHHHHHH! By the way, I want to start a movement to stop clicking the link. This video is not nearly as funny as a dad getting whacked in the tackle by his kid or a drunk teen riding a bike into a swimming pool...that is empty. Or least, Lady GaGa gyrating against something. Please keep you Youtube hits in mind when viewing this video...

Finally, in all seriousness. I once had the opportunity to ask a stuntman why the martial arts are always so fake. The response when the audience sees a stunt, it needs to look believable, regardless if it is possible. Good aikido can look crazy stupid fake. When we make videos we need to be sensitive to what we look like we are doing and clear as to the purpose of the video and the context in which the video should be taken. Good communication from a well-made video saves us from lengthy arguments over "how real" the aikido may (or may not) be.
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:16 PM   #82
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.
Well, you would never see them flopping around... when in your life do you ever do that? I expect my ukes to attempt to maintain their structures, to recover their balance and continue the attack if possible. My students would feel what I am doing and attempt to ground out the energy and ideally redirect it into kaeshiwaza.

Anyway, if it looks unnatural, it probably is something the ukes were trained to do. No one is insisting that they have the same kind of structure the teacher has. It makes the teacher look good but is terrible martial arts.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 04-01-2010, 02:36 AM   #83
David Yap
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi,

The person who uploaded the video of Hakim sensei on Youtube should remove it at once. The video does not do justice to him.

I am amazed that posters of high rank and experience here can pass judgment on him not knowing him as a person or as a martial artist and not even knowing what the video was about. I have no access to Youtube while here in China but I can guess which video it is based on the description posted here. The video was probably taken from one of his classes or seminars. While Hakim sensei has his own dojo, he routinely teaches at other dojos in Jakarta and at other Indonesian cities. The ukes appearing in the video might not even be his own students. Anyone in the west who has trained in Silat would know that Indonesia is the birth place of this fighting art and any other MA would be frowned upon there. Hakim sensei is a respected Aikido teacher in Indonesia and was an instructor to the Presidential Guards, and that, said much about his martial integrity, Aikido included.

The things done on the video were part of the training tools to understand or to demonstrate the principles of aiki and indeed certain rules or scenario must be present; such as aggression, sincere attacks and connections, etc. The line demonstration was to illustrate connections.

Those who have had attended the last two IAF conferences in Japan may remember Hakim sensei leading the Indonesia delegation in the embu and will have no doubt about his martial integrity in aikido. I first met Hakim sensei in 2004 during the 9th IAF and following that I have trained with him at least three times during his visits to Kuala Lumpur. Most time, he did not bring his own students with him as uke but the results were quite similar with others' students. It was my privilege again to attend his class last Sunday. At the onset, he told the class that he would not teach waza (students should learn waza from their own teachers) and he would not teach self-defense or fighting (those who want to fight would be better off learning TMA or FMA). His class was about the application of kokyu in the waza (non-mechanical) and about aiki and aiki principles -- when/why it works and it doesn't.

I took ukeme for Hakim sensei, I attacked him honestly but you wouldn't see me flopping about like a fish out of water -- perhaps I wasn't giving him a 200% attack. I cannot answer for those who did or those who lay on the mats unable to get up as if drained of energy. But I can say that the ukes were not trained to make him looked good, I definitely wasn't. My objective at the class was to observe, feel and learn. I did not attend his class just to make him look good or make myself look good by taking beautiful ukeme.

He did not do any "no touch" throws on me. Leading the opponent's mind is one aiki principle; the sales/marketing people and the lawyers are very good at this -- the power of suggestion. Some people can be easily lead/manipulated while some cannot. Manipulations can be in any/many forms (e.g. by gesturing or by touching) -- either use singly or in combination. I believe O sensei and high level Daito-ryu teachers could do it very well. It can be duplicated but the question is how good your duplication is. It is a skill that one either has or not. For me, soft touching skill is already so hard to duplicate, no touch is soooo very far off my grasp.

Happy duplicating (from the land of duplications)

David Y
Signing off from Shanghai
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:04 AM   #84
sakumeikan
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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David Yap wrote: View Post
Hi,

The person who uploaded the video of Hakim sensei on Youtube should remove it at once. The video does not do justice to him.

I am amazed that posters of high rank and experience here can pass judgment on him not knowing him as a person or as a martial artist and not even knowing what the video was about. I have no access to Youtube while here in China but I can guess which video it is based on the description posted here. The video was probably taken from one of his classes or seminars. While Hakim sensei has his own dojo, he routinely teaches at other dojos in Jakarta and at other Indonesian cities. The ukes appearing in the video might not even be his own students. Anyone in the west who has trained in Silat would know that Indonesia is the birth place of this fighting art and any other MA would be frowned upon there. Hakim sensei is a respected Aikido teacher in Indonesia and was an instructor to the Presidential Guards, and that, said much about his martial integrity, Aikido included.

The things done on the video were part of the training tools to understand or to demonstrate the principles of aiki and indeed certain rules or scenario must be present; such as aggression, sincere attacks and connections, etc. The line demonstration was to illustrate connections.

Those who have had attended the last two IAF conferences in Japan may remember Hakim sensei leading the Indonesia delegation in the embu and will have no doubt about his martial integrity in aikido. I first met Hakim sensei in 2004 during the 9th IAF and following that I have trained with him at least three times during his visits to Kuala Lumpur. Most time, he did not bring his own students with him as uke but the results were quite similar with others' students. It was my privilege again to attend his class last Sunday. At the onset, he told the class that he would not teach waza (students should learn waza from their own teachers) and he would not teach self-defense or fighting (those who want to fight would be better off learning TMA or FMA). His class was about the application of kokyu in the waza (non-mechanical) and about aiki and aiki principles -- when/why it works and it doesn't.

I took ukeme for Hakim sensei, I attacked him honestly but you wouldn't see me flopping about like a fish out of water -- perhaps I wasn't giving him a 200% attack. I cannot answer for those who did or those who lay on the mats unable to get up as if drained of energy. But I can say that the ukes were not trained to make him looked good, I definitely wasn't. My objective at the class was to observe, feel and learn. I did not attend his class just to make him look good or make myself look good by taking beautiful ukeme.

He did not do any "no touch" throws on me. Leading the opponent's mind is one aiki principle; the sales/marketing people and the lawyers are very good at this -- the power of suggestion. Some people can be easily lead/manipulated while some cannot. Manipulations can be in any/many forms (e.g. by gesturing or by touching) -- either use singly or in combination. I believe O sensei and high level Daito-ryu teachers could do it very well. It can be duplicated but the question is how good your duplication is. It is a skill that one either has or not. For me, soft touching skill is already so hard to duplicate, no touch is soooo very far off my grasp.

Happy duplicating (from the land of duplications)

David Y
Signing off from Shanghai
Hi,
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here.The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube.Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido.
Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad.
Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check.
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Old 04-01-2010, 05:22 AM   #85
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi,
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here.The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube.Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido.
Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad.
Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check.
But apparently that teacher can do such things... apparently there is nothing fake to it, as I read David Yap's post.
So why remove it from Youtube?

It would be better to remove batman clips from youtube, because batman doesn't exist... but this sensei exists, and apparently, what he does is not fake...

The problem is that sensei's like this one don't feel the need to teach that technique to their students... as David Yap says that his training was just about Kokyu etc...
At some moment, all the old-school teachers who can teach us those techniques will be dead, and no one will ever know how to do so.

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Old 04-01-2010, 04:20 PM   #86
stan baker
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Dirk
Hakim 's basic aikido from some other videos I looked at seem ok.
The other stuff is a waste of time, it is just playing around. He can not
do that to me.

stan
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:34 AM   #87
eyrie
 
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here.
This much I can agree on.

Quote:
The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube. Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido. Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad. Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check.
Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.

Ignatius
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:20 AM   #88
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
This much I can agree on.

Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.
...he's English.
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:54 AM   #89
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Why? People are (should be?) free to do so.
People should be free post things like the video in question. They also should freely decline to do so.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 04-03-2010, 11:00 AM   #90
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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George Howard wrote: View Post
...he's English.
Hi George,
If your comment is regarding me {Mr Curran] I stress that I am a Scot.From Glasgow.
No disrespect to the English. How are you?
A.T.B Joe.
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Old 04-03-2010, 06:28 PM   #91
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Talking Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
This much I can agree on.

Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.
Freedom of speech in America refers to a prohibition against the government surpressing speech. It doesn't speak to private industry surpressing speech. In this case, it certainly doesn't apply to the situation of just because one can say something does not mean that one SHOULD say something.

As far as the video, didn't Mike Tyson say something to the effect that everyone's got a plan--or in this case LOOK competent-- until they get hit--hard and repeatedly? Perhaps instead of the street this guy should take it to Broadway???
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:12 PM   #92
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi George,
If your comment is regarding me {Mr Curran] I stress that I am a Scot.From Glasgow.
No disrespect to the English. How are you?
A.T.B Joe.
Haha. My apologies sensei: i meant to say British.

...for the sake of argument: you're an honourary Englishman.

I'm well, thank you.
A very tall man was at training on Friday, and it was interesting applying techniques to him, haha; i found myself really dropping my weight on a variation of kata-dori shiho-nage in order to make sure he was thrown.
On the few occasions when i've practiced with somebody really tall, it has highlighted (some of) my (many) weaknesses; do you have any general advice on applying techniques to the very tall (not wanting to impose/bother you)...?

How are you?

Sincere regards

- GG
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:23 PM   #93
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
As far as the video, didn't Mike Tyson say something to the effect that everyone's got a plan--or in this case LOOK competent-- until they get hit--hard and repeatedly? Perhaps instead of the street this guy should take it to Broadway???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKq...eature=related
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:10 AM   #94
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi George,
This is an other example of absolute rubbish posted on Youtube.As you said the Master??? gets a a couple of clips on his chin in another vid. I hope no one on this Aikiweb decides to try and explain why the Master lost his Ki power during the encounter.
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:23 AM   #95
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Talking Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

I stand corrected. Perhaps instead of Broadway, someone should give him a wand and he can try out for the next Harry Potter movie. They ukes coming at him seem so afraid to be hit. A real fighter may not want to be hit, but the 10X exaggerated flinch reaction would not be there--why? Because they would be use to being hit and Just Keep Coming.
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:29 AM   #96
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi George,
This is an other example of absolute rubbish posted on Youtube.As you said the Master??? gets a a couple of clips on his chin in another vid. I hope no one on this Aikiweb decides to try and explain why the Master lost his Ki power during the encounter.
I absolutely agree with you, and your earlier point that such videos give a bad name to aikido: if you think, someone was going around saying you were something you were not, or believed/did something you did not, then you might not like that - so too with aikido.

On this version of the video - with 1.5 million views - he is said to practice 'Daitouryu-aikido':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Regarding the actual fight, for all the criticism of the wrist grabs in aikido, the guy actually grabs the 'master's' wrist! If he did aikido, he would have finished the fight there, i'd think - even against someone who does MMA.

'Japan's Yanagi Ryuken can teach you now. He holds a 10th degree black belt in five traditional martial arts, and his system is based on martial arts like Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu and spiritual paths like Qigong. Yanagi Ryuken supposedly won over 200 Vale Tudo competitions'

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/...uch-knockouts/

And a brief video exposing a fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDL...eature=related
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:58 PM   #97
dps
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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George Howard wrote: View Post
I absolutely agree with you, and your earlier point that such videos give a bad name to aikido: if you think, someone was going around saying you were something you were not, or believed/did something you did not, then you might not like that - so too with aikido.

On this version of the video - with 1.5 million views - he is said to practice 'Daitouryu-aikido':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Regarding the actual fight, for all the criticism of the wrist grabs in aikido, the guy actually grabs the 'master's' wrist! If he did aikido, he would have finished the fight there, i'd think - even against someone who does MMA.

'Japan's Yanagi Ryuken can teach you now. He holds a 10th degree black belt in five traditional martial arts, and his system is based on martial arts like Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu and spiritual paths like Qigong. Yanagi Ryuken supposedly won over 200 Vale Tudo competitions'

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/...uch-knockouts/

And a brief video exposing a fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDL...eature=related
Hello George,

After reading your post and reading and watching the videos, some of which I have seen before, I was wondering if "delusion" would be another definition of the many definitions for Ki, Chi, etc?

David

Last edited by dps : 04-04-2010 at 07:02 PM.
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