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Old 03-25-2010, 09:01 AM   #26
mickeygelum
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
" Look Maw... I traded the cow for some magic beans... "
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:02 PM   #27
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

most of that stuff is bs

stan
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:07 PM   #28
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Marc
I do not agree with you, I think they are reacting because of fear.

stan
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:17 PM   #29
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

I'll stop short of saying what Ushiro is doing, as to be honest I don't really know at the level of splitting hairs that is being discussed.

I will tell you that I was not reacting out of fear at all.

I would attack Ushiro Sensei and he would be present in a way that most folks simply are not before I would move in most cases. He'd shut down my attacks before I even be able to launch them. In essence in most cases it was simply stupid on my part to even attack him as I had no tactical advantage whatsoever.

In most cases it would turn into a subtle chess match of very slight movements of the eyes, slight shifts in balance, posture or whatever in an attempt to mask what I wanted to do.

Ushiro Sensei would leave an opening, bait me to take it, of course, I'd honestly believe that I'd found an opening and take it only to find out after I committed that it was not to be and he'd move to take advantage of my mistake.

Of course, there were also the internal demonstrations of aiki as well, but that was sometimes something else, also combined with some other influences as wel...fascinating indeed to be made to do stuff you don't want to do.

Anyway, whatever it is he does, it was not based on fear at all.

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Old 03-25-2010, 06:19 PM   #30
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Marc,

you are very lucky to have studied under such a teacher. If I'm not mistaken he also threw people around with his Aiki skills in the Aiki Expo several years back. Though the techniques look crude the Aiki doesn't.

I mentioned predominantly (use ashi awase) but I can believe that he is capable of more than that. As I mentioned, its just difficult to understand unless you're feeling it yourself.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:04 PM   #31
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Stan:

You are speaking from a position of no first-hand knowledge. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in May. Come down and find out for yourself. Kevin certainly did and gave a honest answer as to what he experienced FIRST HAND. You now have two people with direct experience who plainly say that you are wrong. You can either test your hypothesis out or continue to stand behind a conclusion based upon insufficient information.

Ahmad:

I was VERY FORTUNATE to meet Ushiro Sensei at the first US Aiki Expo. His son was sporting a broken wrist so he asked for people with a karate background to volunteer to be "crash-test dummies". I was the first person to raise his hand. About one millisecond into trying to punch him, I knew that I was in a new world! Even luckier, was that even though we did not speak the same language, there was a positive vibe with my wife and I and Ushiro Sensei and his son and daughter. Our friendship deepened over the next eight years. More importantly, the changes that I saw in him amazed me. He was an amazing martial artist to begin with and his improvements were all the more stunning. I directly petitioned him to become a direct student of his. This decision has been a profoundly positive one for my budo development. It is requiring that I travel to Japan several times a year, in addition to bringing him to the US several times a year. I look at this as a very important investment in my personal development. Ushiro Sensei practices bujutsu. What looks to be crude are actually remarkably refined, soft, efficient and effective movements that can be deadly. His sense of Aiki, his softness and his use of Ki is beyond anyone else I have had direct experience with. The only person who I perceived to be at a similar level was the head of Systema.

Videos are a mixed bag. Sometimes they illuminate, while other times, obscure what is really happening. I try and create a list of hypotheses that I then look to verify (hopefully in person). I have eaten my feet enough times by jumping to early, erroneous conclusions, that I have jokingly referred to my chronic athletes foot-in-the-mouth disease. I am hoping that I am gaining some wisdom with age.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:33 PM   #32
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Marc
ok I will check it out

stan
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:13 PM   #33
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

When you are a begginer to practice Aiki, you will not be fascinated to the techniques when you practice Karate, Judo or Aikido. Why, it look all scripted with good choreography. This is my first impression. I studied Aikido in Kanagawa for almost 4 years, saw the " No touch" technique at Kamakura dojo and at the Nippon Budokan. Very funny!!!
I moved here in Hokkaido last 2001, the home of " Aiki" and enrolled in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai and received my shodan but honestly I cannot do any Aiki, I thinked I am not impressed with the teaching of my master. I decided to quit this Dojo and transfered to another Daito-ryu master who is really good in Aiki technique and this is not scripted because on the first day of my practice, I grab his hand and find myself lying on the ground in just a couple of seconds.
He always explained throw your opponent by your eyes and direct your energy to the shoulder and let it pass to the throat into the base of the spine of your opponent. This always a puzzle, until we made our own group in our city remembering all his teaching.
We continue to do research on our Aiki and even our white belt members can do some Aiki techniques. Some Masters, don't teach you the reason behind why the technique works. In our group it should be scientifically explained because this is only a part of the Physical and Mental level of learning Aiki nothing especial.
I believe if you master the physical and mental level of training of Aiki, you have to start practicing the spiritual level to understand the " No touch technique" because it cannot be explained with physical and mental senses alone, We have to balances our body, soul and spirit to understand this.
Try to unbalance your opponent using one finger and if he fell down , welcome to the world of Aiki!! Ganbatte!!!!
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:06 AM   #34
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Guillermo
Big deal it just means that your rooting is not that good. If your rooting is good they can still throw you but it will not be so easy. I practice with the top guys in the world.

stan

Last edited by stan baker : 03-26-2010 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:35 AM   #35
guillermo santos
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Hi Guillermo
Big deal it just means that your rooting is not that good. If your rooting is good they can still throw you but it will not be so easy. I practice with the top guys in the world.

stan
Hi Stan,
Yes, I agree to you that my rooting is not that good , I cannot imagined why an Aiki master that is only less than 5 feet tall, age 70, that weighs aroud 55 kilos, throw me like a piece of empty can. I hope you can experience this too, Stan
Good luck to your practice with the toppest guys in the world.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:11 AM   #36
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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you have to start practicing the spiritual level to understand the " No touch technique" because it cannot be explained with physical and mental senses alone, We have to balances our body, soul and spirit to understand this.
So this is a magic!!!
Please, use your common sense....
I think you watched too much Harry Potter movies

Nagababa

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Old 03-26-2010, 08:29 AM   #37
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Videos are a mixed bag. Sometimes they illuminate, while other times, obscure what is really happening. I try and create a list of hypotheses that I then look to verify (hopefully in person). I have eaten my feet enough times by jumping to early, erroneous conclusions, that I have jokingly referred to my chronic athletes foot-in-the-mouth disease. I am hoping that I am gaining some wisdom with age.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc,
I usually don't comment on videos. However what happens here is very disrespectful.
With enough gallons of sweat on the tatami, one can very precisely make correct judgment even from video what level represent an instructor. I.e. if I look at the video of you and then at the video of let's say Saotome sensei, I can easily say which one is a direct student of the Founder.

The behavior of the students - they are not only faking all this stuff but making from a dojo (which is a place for serious practice) kind of circus for the mob.
Also, teacher behavior is disrespectful to the Art, as he allows for such behavior in his dojo.
I'm far from being fanatic of traditionalism in the dojo, but the etiquette has an important place.

Nagababa

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Old 03-26-2010, 09:46 AM   #38
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
I usually don't comment on videos. However what happens here is very disrespectful.
With enough gallons of sweat on the tatami, one can very precisely make correct judgment even from video what level represent an instructor. I.e. if I look at the video of you and then at the video of let's say Saotome sensei, I can easily say which one is a direct student of the Founder.

The behavior of the students - they are not only faking all this stuff but making from a dojo (which is a place for serious practice) kind of circus for the mob.
Also, teacher behavior is disrespectful to the Art, as he allows for such behavior in his dojo.
I'm far from being fanatic of traditionalism in the dojo, but the etiquette has an important place.
Szczepan:

I generally agree with what you are saying. I think that a majority of your hypotheses regarding that video clip would be the same/similar. I have eaten my foot enough times by not testing out the hypotheses first, that I have become a little more reserved. My students get an earful from me whenever they try and collude with what I am doing. If they are instructed to attack in a certain manner, I fully expect them to do so. I do not want them to learn bad habits by trying to make me look good. My hypothesis is that this teacher does use good Ki. I am not a fan of advocating that students amplify their experience of it and allow themselves to become future victims. That is another hypothesis of mine. I hope to test them out one day.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:40 AM   #39
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

This video, and these skills are easy to understand. It's simply a form of mind control. The study of hypnotism will provide the answers to many of the questions that are arising here.

It's not "fake", because (I don't believe) he has prearranged what is going to happen to make it look a certain way. However the students believe in their minds what their teacher is going to do to them, so it happens.

Using the word "ki" or "chi" can easily be applied to this situation. The teacher uses his intent (mental ki/chi) to direct the students minds to do his bidding.

Kevin's experience can be explained in much the same way. I've done the same thing with a brand new Aikido student once. You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules, and create openings, or close them off. Making someone feel as if they cannot attack, or that their only attack is a weak one.

Quickly you might say, there were no rules provided. But of course there were. You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.

This is an example of mind control, and it is a powerful tool. Nothing fake about it, but it's not magic either.

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Old 03-26-2010, 11:09 AM   #40
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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This video, and these skills are easy to understand. It's simply a form of mind control. The study of hypnotism will provide the answers to many of the questions that are arising here.

It's not "fake", because (I don't believe) he has prearranged what is going to happen to make it look a certain way. However the students believe in their minds what their teacher is going to do to them, so it happens.

Using the word "ki" or "chi" can easily be applied to this situation. The teacher uses his intent (mental ki/chi) to direct the students minds to do his bidding.

Kevin's experience can be explained in much the same way. I've done the same thing with a brand new Aikido student once. You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules, and create openings, or close them off. Making someone feel as if they cannot attack, or that their only attack is a weak one.

Quickly you might say, there were no rules provided. But of course there were. You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.

This is an example of mind control, and it is a powerful tool. Nothing fake about it, but it's not magic either.
Chris:

Do you have any training in hypnotism? My guess is not. Your hypothesis regarding Kevin is simply wrong. I speak from both a martial perspective and as a licensed psychologist with substantial knowledge and understanding of the field of hypnosis.

Ushiro Sensei is one of few people I know that do not expect the "rules" that you allude to. You just need to be prepared to accept that with which you choose to put out there. He was involved in sports karate for many, many years and has evolved to a level that he enjoys people who try and use that low level of budo. Those people (including K1 & other national sports karate champions) end up looking like rank beginners when they do kumite with him.

Ki has nothing to do with a hypnotic process. If you have not truly experienced the difference between the two, then you have a wonderful area to pursue and test out. It's a great opportunity for you to discover that which is hidden in plain sight. Stan has decided to test his believes out in person. Would love to meet you there as well!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:23 PM   #41
Walter Martindale
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Some people never learn. If they don't understand it, they think its not real. Get out of the cave.

Walter, NZ is not far from here. Drop by this Sunday and give him your best shot. Tell him its fake.
Not any time soon. Can barely afford to pay the rent, let alone hop on an aircraft on short notice. As well, I'm about 30 years too old to do those sorts of challenges, but - come on - the third guy in the queue, holding onto the second guy's shoulders has to be acting..

W
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:51 PM   #42
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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. Those people (including K1 & other national sports karate champions) end up looking like rank beginners when they do kumite with him.
Marc Abrams
I would love to see footage of this. Not because I believe it didnt' happen, but because I'd bet that it happened in a way that is unlike a sport match, but instead was a demonstration, which has a different context.

Marc, I don't think you are able to understand my point. People are constantly subjecting themselves to social confines. Lack of understanding this is what allows others to take advantage of your social confines. As a licensed psychologist, you should understand this better then most. To say Ushiro Sensei didn't expect to play by a set of rules is kind of silly. He didn't expect Kevin to pull out a gun and shoot him, because that would be crazy for him to do. Crazy because it doesn't fit into the normal dictates of this type of situations. That is a gross example of the kind of rule I'm talking about.

This is a powerful ability, I don't want you to think I'm saying otherwise. Again as a licensed psychologist you should understand how the power of the mind is amazing.

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Old 03-26-2010, 03:30 PM   #43
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

I agree with Chris' point actually as there are "rules" and Ushiro does commmand the floor very well when he is teaching. Of course, he is a master instructor of the highest caliber.

That said, you also have to appreciate the level of what it is that he is doing and able to do within those constraints.

I chose to do or not do things simply because I realized that what was going to happen within those constraints came at a cost.

That said, yeah, I wasn't ambushing him, pulling out a superior weapon or anything like that.

But, I think that actually Marc is correct too concerning the Uke's in the video. How they acted may or may not dictate how good or not the instructor's skills are. I agree they are over acting for sure.

FWIW, IMO, I also felt that some of folks and Ushiro's seminar did the same. I didn't, and judged for myself based on my own interaction, and no I did not feel the need to over react or bail on anything needlessly.

Essentially if I did this or not, it did not matter to Ushiro Sensei if it were me given more realistic attacks or someone else, he responded the same way.

In addition, my experiences and Marc's...our interpretation, value, assessments may differ or we may not necessarily agree on EVERY POINT that Ushiro demonstrates. Of course not!

However, how I judge any encounter is what I am able to learn and take away from it, and I left working with Ushiro for a weekend with alot of learning!

So for me, that is enough to say "time well spent", and that I think is about as best of what you can ask for in your practice!

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Old 03-26-2010, 04:51 PM   #44
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Marc
The reason why Ushiro sensei makes it looks so easy, is because his opponents are not that good. For all the best people that I have seen they all make it look just like him. Nothing magical.

stan
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:11 PM   #45
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

How do you define "good" Stan?

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Old 03-26-2010, 05:14 PM   #46
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

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You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules,

You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.
This. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

A skeptic comes in, punches them in the face (ok, how about just tweaks their nose gently), and the skeptic's "negative energy" is suddenly the most powerful energy in the room. Then the cowards don't allow them to go to seminars. Something about a rice bowl applies I'm sure.

Justin

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Old 03-26-2010, 06:54 PM   #47
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Kevin
How do you define good

stan
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:28 PM   #48
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

It depends on the Context and I asked you first since your the one that made the statement.

"The reason why Ushiro sensei makes it looks so easy, is because his opponents are not that good"

It is your responsibility to define the parameters of "good" since you brought that up. I have no idea what you mean by "good" so how do we have a conversation in this area unless you objectify it?

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Old 03-27-2010, 05:23 AM   #49
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Hi Kevin
In the context of the videos, being good would be to offer some resistance. Most of what one sees in those aiki videos is ridiculous.
Ushiro stuff of what I have seen looks reasonable.

stan
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:45 AM   #50
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Thanks Stan. I think there are several things that can be broken down in the context of study and isolation of various things.

Resistance can be defined in a couple of different ways, which of course, it hard to define here without being together to have the physical conversation that must accompany it.

There is the resistance where I grab your rest and exert has much force as I can in an attempt to hold you there. This works on folks that will push back or focus all there physical and emotional energy on the area being grabbed.

There is no resistance at all, which, I think we see in the video...we call those "dive bunnies".

There is appropriate resistance were you try and maintain the proper feel and balance between proprioception and you try and root and take center. This is what I try and do constantly...that is, be a good uke.

Again, a guy like Ushiro, with his skill level is going to hold all the cards in this area, and rightfully so as it is his dojo and his floor. So it is not appropriate, IMO, to detour from that context and move on.

Of course, he is also happy to go that way if you'd wish, but then training turns into something else and it may not fair well for me...or maybe for him either...who knows.

I did push the edge of this a little with him and it would usually illicit a smile with him quickly changing up to something else...I think he loves this, but again, it is his show and someone is going to get hurt if you try and upstage him...and why would you do this with someone that is obviously there to teach you, you don't know very well, and is simply downright rude without a prior discussion of the parameters?

Then I think there is another kind of resistance...we like to call "aliveness". Nope, never went there with Ushiro. In fact, I have never gone there with ANY of the "experts" in internal martial arts.

I'd LOVE to...but it has not been appropriate in the venues.

SO is this what you are getting at?

I assure you that I pressed Ushiro as hard as I could within the appropriate boundaries and found him skillful enough to realize that there was something to learn from him.

For me this is enough to attend a seminar and go home feeling like I didn't waste my time.

Again, one of the questions that remains unanswered for me is "How do you apply all this cool guy training in aliveness"?

Some of those questions are starting to be answered for me. Got a hint of it this week from a Brazilian Red/black Belt named Sylvio Behring, who uses the word "leverage", but what is amazing is that he says "leverage" but then uses IS!

Rickson is in town next week and I am hoping to get with him. Master Behring says that Rickson has a much better grasp of "leverage" than he does.

Anyway, my hope is to link up with Dan Harden and maybe you one day so we can work through alot of this stuff. From everything I have heard, I am encouraged to see a more dynamic and alive application of this stuff as it applies to MMA.

Unfortunately, I will be unavailable for the next year so it will have to wait until I get back to the states!

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