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Old 03-23-2010, 06:49 AM   #51
dps
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Historically, we can uphold that with Kisshomaru, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tohei, etc, etc, etc. who are all doing aikido in some sort of spiritual mind set..
What spiritual mindset did Tomiki, Shioda and Mochizuki have?

David
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:55 AM   #52
bulevardi
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Tai Chi is (was?) supposed to be a martial art as well.
Oh well, I can get someone knock-out by throwing a basketball very hard against his head. In this case basketball is a martial art too

Simplicity is my best friend

Last edited by bulevardi : 03-23-2010 at 06:58 AM.

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Old 03-23-2010, 07:05 AM   #53
C. David Henderson
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Let me put it simply then, Dirk-- you don't understand tai chi and shouldn't opine about it.

David Henderson
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:18 AM   #54
MM
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
But some people don't want to be that good as Ueshiba. Some people don't have the need to reach the top or be the best someday.

Some people want to do Aikido for other reasons.
Like a runner who just wants to go jogging as recreation to get fit, but doesn't want to do it only to be able to run a marathon some day.
I don't mean that it has to be soft, you can still train hard and learn the good techniques, but for me personally it's not my purpose to get a black belt someday.

For some people, Tai Chi or Yoga would be better to practice instead of Aikido.
Aikido needs to stay Aikido. It needs to stay a MARTIAL art.
Off topic, so I created a new thread here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...358#post254358
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:23 AM   #55
jss
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Let me put it simply then, Dirk-- you don't understand tai chi and shouldn't opine about it.
Well, I think it's fair to say that most tai chi is as much a martial art as most aikido.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:33 AM   #56
C. David Henderson
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Re: Funakogi Undo

That is fair.

David Henderson
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:43 AM   #57
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Sorry for the interruption but...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Ghandi Dancing
Priceless
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:57 AM   #58
bulevardi
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Let me put it simply then, Dirk-- you don't understand tai chi and shouldn't opine about it.
Mmm, ok.
But who are you to decide what I don't understand? You shouldn't opine about me.

Because we're on an aikido forum here, I can say that you don't understand karate and shoudn't opine about that. How do I know for sure wether you understand karate or not?

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Old 03-23-2010, 10:05 AM   #59
C. David Henderson
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Re: Funakogi Undo

You'd be right -- I don't understand karate and I don't opine about it.

There's a reason for that. If I did it soon would be obvious I didn't know what I was talking about -- just taking up bandwidth.

So tell, me, what is your experience with Tai Chi -- ever done push hands for example? Trained in it? How long and with who? Did this person teach martial applications? Know anyone who does it as a martial art?

If I'm mistaken and you have a factual basis for your assertion that tai chi has roughly the same "martial" application as throwing a basketball at someone's head, what is it?

No offense intended, in any event. Sorry if it came across too sharply.

David Henderson
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Old 03-23-2010, 01:15 PM   #60
Rev.K. Barrish
 
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Hello everyone,

re: Funekogi undo/ Ame-no-torifune-no-gyo:

"When the founder of Aikido, Venerable Morihei Ueshiba, visited Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro - head shrine of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami - and made special prayer, the secret of waza was brought forth through the divine revelation. Since then day and night he practiced Misogi Shu Ho to reach the state of unity between the Kami (divine beings) and human beings.
Venerable Morihei Ueshiba cultivated spirituality so profoundly that he created Takemusu Aiki, and he taught the great power and wisdom of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami to students of Aiki. Later he was able to show Jintsuriki, special divine power. Jintsuriki means that Shinriki - or the ki of the Great nature - is transformed to Jinriki or, actual power or waza, which will be delivered by man after being absorbed and accumulated by man's spirit, mind and body. "

written by Honorable High Priest, Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto in August of 1997 about Shinto & Aikido.

AME-NO-TORIFUNE-NO-GYO

Sometimes called Fune-kogi-undo. Ame-no-torifune is one of the Misogi Jumbi Taiso or exercises to prepare the mind/ body/ spirit for the activity of Misogi Shuho. These exercises have been widely adopted as Aiki Jumbi Taiso.
Torifune (Bird Rowing)
1. Stand straight and put your left leg forward
2. Clench both fists with your thumbs inside
3. Lean forward and move your arms as though rowing a boat starting from your left knee and ending near your *armpits. As you "row," shout "Yie".
4. Perform this 20 times and then repeat Furitama
5. Changing to a right leg stance, repeat the Torifune shouting "Ei" and "Ho" alternately. Do this 20 times and then repeat Furitama
6. Return to the left foot forward stance and remake the clenched fists as before and bring the hands up to the chest to a shout of "Yie" and thrust them down and forward with hands opened and fingers extended to a shout of "Se" After this, once again repeat the Furitama
The Object of Torifune-no-gyo
The basic purpose is to introduce a dimension of physical calisthenics along with the spiritual. Since misogi is a psycho-physical experience, both types of preperatory exercises are necessary. " Torifune-no-gyo (done properly) is very grounding and invigorating. The kiai organizes the hara… centripetality/contraction and centrifugality existing simultaneously while grounding relates very directly to the organization we want to manifest during Aiki waza.

TAMA FURI/ Furitama-no-Gyo
Tama (soul) Furi (shake) basic meaning is the self Chin-kon and relates directly to the furube-no-kamu-waza of Chinkon Saho.
Furitama ( Soul Shaking)
1. Stand with your legs apart about shoulder width .
2. Place your hands together with the right hand over the left. Leave space between them big enough for an imaginary ping pong ball.
3. Place your hands in that position in front of your stomach and 0shake them vigorously up and down.
4. While shaking them concentrate and repeat the words: Harae-do-no-Okami - an invocation to the kami of the place of harai.
The Object Furitama-no-gyo
The purpose of shaking the soul is to generate awareness of it within yourself. Kon, (the soul), in Shinto, is one of the four important elements along with Mei (life), Rei (spirit) and Ki (which means Spirit in its causal aspect - Ki is a kind of energy source). Kon is the most important of the four since human beings can also be described as Waketama (separated individual souls), which is another way of saying "children of the kami".

Chinkon kanji can also be read as Mitama Shizume..the basic meanings are:
1) to reintegrate the elements of self/soul into the current moment
2) to quiet or pacify the soul
3) to invigorate the soul
4) The kanji of Chin-kon can also be read Sho Kon and carry the nuance of pacifying and assisting the raising of vibration for the Mitama of a person who has left this life

Tama-furi aims at the reception of strong spiritual waves/higher spirit/ refined vibration.

The aim of activities of Shinto Gyo (tuning practices) Misogi Harai (self purification) is to quiet and reinvigorate the very soul these activities can be called
1) misogi harai
2) mitama-furi
3) tama-furi
4) mitama shizume
5) chin-kon

all these are written with the same kanji these activities relate directly to the function of I-buki-do-nushi-no-Ou kami who is one of the Harae-do-no-Ou-kami and deals directly with purification by out breath.
IKU TAMA /TARU TAMA/TAMA TAMARU TAMA

During the Misogi Jumbi Taiso (preparatory exercises) the Otakebi (shouting) begins with: Ikuuuuuuuuuuu Tamaaaaaaaa/ Truuuuu Tamaaaaaaaa/ Tama Tamaruuuuuuuuuuu Tamaaaaaaaaa…

In KAMI-NO-MICHI Sendai Guji, Rev Yukitaka Yamamoto wrote:

Shouting Iku-tama activates the soul which is just coming to awareness. Taru-tama affirms the awareness that you can realize the infinite in your soul. Tama-tamaru-tama confirms both and keeps the soul activated at its quantum level.

When we shout together by the riverside and our voices echo into: 1) the distance 2) the earth and 3) into the sky it is a really profound human experience that simultaneously elevates and grounds us (centralized expension).

As we examine the meaning of the kanji (Chinese characters/pictographs) we can gain further insight………………

IKU TAMA (shouted out horizontally) comes from the verb Ikeru (to live- exist) Tama is from tamashii (soul) IKIRU TAMASHII means Life-soul… this relates to the triangle shape..to exist

TARU TAMA (shouted towards the Earth) Taru can be read ashi (leg) implying to stand on the Earth in the current moment…Taru also comes from tairu (enough/sufficient) implying fulfillment/support and relating to the circle shape………….life

TAMA TAMARU TAMA (shouted in ascending manner) comes from Tama (jewel), Taru (pool), and Tama (soul) implies deep nourishment, setting-sealing and relating to the square shape which implies continuous echoing

All these types of Gyo, Furitama-no-gyo, Torifune-no-gyo, Otakebi as well as Chinkon Gyoho activities have real power to activate our KI.

Effects of Gyo:
1. True understanding of our lives as Kami-no-Ko children of Divine Nature.
2. Cultivation of the the Heart/Mind/Spirit of service to society.
3. Transcending Ego and greed and understanding the Mission of Human. Beings. Understanding of Kyoson Kyoei principal of mutual co-existence and co-prosperity.
4. Health benefit of increased circulation of blood and KI and spiritual revitalization.
5. Strengthening overall constitution to become more genki.
6. Sharpen the intellect (mind).
7. Tamashii (soul) is renewed…you can feel Inochi (life principal).
8. Bring new creativity to daily life.
9. Misogi purifies the three temporal worlds: past/present/future…you receive KI of Divine Nature and give KI to others.
10. Power to improve KI of Family.
11. By raising spirituality you increase your contact with OKami and your ability to feel the heartbeat and breath of OKami.

Of course everyone is warmly invited to Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America to personally experience these activities with the shrine staff.

Warmest regards
Koichi Barrish
Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America
www.Tsubakishrine.org
www.Kannagara.org
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Old 03-23-2010, 01:27 PM   #61
bulevardi
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
You'd be right -- I don't understand karate and I don't opine about it.

There's a reason for that. If I did it soon would be obvious I didn't know what I was talking about -- just taking up bandwidth.

So tell, me, what is your experience with Tai Chi -- ever done push hands for example? Trained in it? How long and with who? Did this person teach martial applications? Know anyone who does it as a martial art?
If one can only have an opinion about something he practices or has lots experience with, there will be not much opinions posted anymore.

I have no experience with Tai Chi. Never trained in it, never done push hands (for example of course). And I would ignore everyone I know who does it as a martial art. As a matter of fact, I don't know anyone who does it and I will keep it that way.
Fair enough?

Typical discussion to ask for experience, and then afterwards "for how long?". If it seems not long enough, the other person mostly says: "so you're doing it X time and you already have an opinion about it. It would never be good enough in such discussions. How long should one be practicing something to be able to opine about it?

Anyway, perhaps you don't opine about it, that's your business, but I opine about it even though I don't know anything about it.
I'm playing blues guitar and I opine about playing jazz guitar, For example: that playing jazz guitar is more difficult than playing blues guitar. Do I need experience in playing jazz guitar to opine about it? No. And if so, how many days, months or years should I have experience in playing it? Does it matter? No.

-------------------------------

Well, if you really want, I'll go off-topic and talk about Tai Chi right here.
I'll post a quote from this website: http://www.martial-arts-info.com/135/tai-chi-chuan/
Quote:
Tai Chi Chuan is practiced worldwide for its health benefits and improved concentration. It is widely practised for the reduction of stress and tension - not as a combat martial art.
I personally see martial arts as a combat style. I see it that way, you don't have to see it that way.
Even if the whole world says it IS a martial art, I'm not going to change my opinion for that.

If Tai Chi is not a combat form, and just something to improve health and concentration... Then other exercises apart from Tai Chi to improve health and concentration are martial arts too? Sports in general improve this too... mediation, yoga, vitamine pills too...

It's not because it's a movement style from somewhere in the east that it's immediately a Martial Art. Even if it has it's origin from Shaolin monks. Same as a samurai would have been playing football in his free time, football would be a martial art later on.

Last edited by bulevardi : 03-23-2010 at 01:33 PM.

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Old 03-23-2010, 03:34 PM   #62
C. David Henderson
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
If one can only have an opinion about something he practices or has lots experience with, there will be not much opinions posted anymore.
1. Absent any experience, though, the opinion offered may be worth no more than the sweat equity invested.

2. There are ways of talking about things you haven't experienced without prejudgment.

Quote:
I have no experience with Tai Chi. Never trained in it, never done push hands (for example of course). And I would ignore everyone I know who does it as a martial art. As a matter of fact, I don't know anyone who does it and I will keep it that way.
Fair enough?
Now I understand how much weight to put on your opinion then -- you have no interest and you lack an open mind. Thank you for clarifying.

To clarify in turn, I have a bit of experience and a bit of information, and that is the basis of my disagreement with you.

Quote:
How long should one be practicing something to be able to opine about it?
How about having some experience before voicing blanket opinions that a pursuit undertaken by many people for a particular purpose is of no value for that purpose?

Quote:
Anyway, perhaps you don't opine about it, that's your business, but I opine about it even though I don't know anything about it.
Why? What is your reason for making public statements about topics in which you acknowledge you have no knowledge, no experience, and perhaps most importantly, no real interest?

Seems like a backwards way of trying to have a conversation.

Quote:
I'm playing blues guitar and I opine about playing jazz guitar, For example: that playing jazz guitar is more difficult than playing blues guitar. Do I need experience in playing jazz guitar to opine about it? No.
1. I'm sure you don't; that's your whole position. But its good to know that you don't when considering the worth of that opinion.

2. A closer analogy might be, however, playing guitar and making a blanket statement about how easy it is to play the glockenspeil (or bagpipes, or ....).

Quote:
And if so, how many days, months or years should I have experience in playing it? Does it matter? No
.

I disagree. An opinion from someone who has long experience with playing both kinds of music likely is more meaningful and certainly more reliable.

For me, because the internet prevents many avenues of communication,these questions are doubly relevant.

You have a right to your opinion, of course; you also have the opportunity over your lifetime to think about and revise those opinions as you see fit given what you learn during the journey. One of the things that has occurred with me based on reading the varied kinds of opinions from knowledgeable people on this site has been a lot of revisions in my understanding of Aikido and marital arts.

Quote:
Well, if you really want, I'll go off-topic and talk about Tai Chi right here.
Why you would suppose that's something I want is beyond me given my original comment to you. But you certainly can say whatever you want.

Parenthetically, the point I objected to had nothing to do with the way "most people" practice Tai Chi, but the suggestion that there is no real martial utility to the tradition, a statement you've admitted comes from a place of (1) no experience, and (2) no interest.

Quote:
I personally see martial arts as a combat style. I see it that way, you don't have to see it that way.
Funny thing is, one commonality between ICMA and Aikido is that it often takes a long time for either to be martially effective. If you want to study a "combat art," neither would be the first choice of most folks who seem to know (and care) what they are talking about.

Quote:
Even if the whole world says it IS a martial art, I'm not going to change my opinion for that.
Why not? Other than this rather tense exchange with a stranger on the internet, what do you have invested in keeping intact and inviolate an opinion about a subject in which you acknowlege you have no interest?

Quote:
If Tai Chi is not a combat form, and just something to improve health and concentration... Then other exercises apart from Tai Chi to improve health and concentration are martial arts too? Sports in general improve this too... mediation, yoga, vitamine pills too...
It's not "just something to improve health and concentration." That's your construct, based on generalizing from a single general web entry. Its called, in English at least, a "straw man."

This is why knowing the subject matter makes a difference in reasoning your way to valid conclusions. (BTW, your reasoning also is logically fallacious in other ways, but let that pass.)

Turning back to the topic at hand, if one must convince you by reference to what you already know, understand, and believe of the utility of, say, funakogi undo to your training, it seems to me your cup is already too full. But hey, knock yourself out.

To repeat what Mr. Murray said earlier in this thread-- It is your training.

Respectfully.

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 03-23-2010 at 03:45 PM.

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Old 03-23-2010, 06:54 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
I personally see martial arts as a combat style. I see it that way, you don't have to see it that way.
Even if the whole world says it IS a martial art, I'm not going to change my opinion for that.
Here you go. Hamburg in November of this year. Chen Xiawoang. He's about 65 years old. Go tell him that he doesn't do martial arts. Take your teacher. Take your mom and dad. Take the Sheriff of your home town. Let me know how it goes.

http://www.wctag.de/

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:03 PM   #64
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Here you go. Hamburg in November of this year. Chen Xiawoang. He's about 65 years old. Go tell him that he doesn't do martial arts. Take your teacher. Take your mom and dad. Take the Sheriff of your home town. Let me know how it goes.

http://www.wctag.de/

Regards,

Mike Sigman
On a related note, Grandmaster Chen Xiaoxing will be in San Diego May 6-9, 2010.
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:55 AM   #65
bulevardi
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Just to clarify something, you started by saying this:
Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Let me put it simply then, Dirk-- you don't understand tai chi and shouldn't opine about it.
Without knowing anything about me in the first place. Without even knowing my knowledge of tai chi.

So than I can say the same to you: "What is YOUR reason for making public statements about persons you don't know about?"

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote:
Why? What is your reason for making public statements about topics in which you acknowledge you have no knowledge, no experience, and perhaps most importantly, no real interest?
I would say: take your conclusions about that point of view first, before blaming another doing the same?

The rest of my post was just pure rubbish to get you out of your cage and react like a fool.
I thought you would have read that between the lines...
My post was actually NOT about Tai Chi. It could have been replaced by any topic.

Same thing: you first ask me (1/ if I have experience) and then immediately (2/ how long).
It's a typical questioning technique in discussions to win every time. If one says x-time, it won't be enough. It will never be good. It's a win win question for an interviewer. You ever observated journalists?
And that point is literally proven because now afterwards you even say that the time is not important.
Than I question why you actually asked that question if it wasn't necessary?
If someone starts questioning me like that, I just react like an idiot and say that blue is the same as yellow etc...

Anyway, your 2 posts are a total contradiction.
So can we please stop about discussing this and go back on topic?

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Old 03-24-2010, 07:10 AM   #66
C. David Henderson
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Re: Funakogi Undo

You admitted you don't know. And don't care. And you are wrong. And my point was ultimately about the topic. My admonition to you wasn't about winning, it was about an assertion you made that was, frankly, ridiculous. You followed with other assertions that are more ridiculous. If that's your tactic -- you win.

Take Mike's advice though. He knows what he is talking about.

And for god's sake man, empty your cup. You acknowledge you are a beginner. Take advantage of that rather than squandering it out of an interest in acting otherwise.

David Henderson
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:30 AM   #67
bulevardi
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Re: Funakogi Undo

Ok, you didn't see the point.


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