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Old 02-08-2010, 05:03 PM   #1
eyesman14
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Ikkyo pin

I was just wondering how you prevent somebody from rolling out of the ikkyo pin?

Thanks
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:37 PM   #2
GMaroda
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Short answer: pin them correctly.

LOLcat answer: ur doin it wrong!

Not terribly long answer: make sure the shoulder is locked down.

Edit: Add "I think" to all answers.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:22 PM   #3
eyesman14
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Thanks! I may be doing it wrong, but i found that some guys with juijitsu backgrounds can roll out of it.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:55 PM   #4
JW
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

When they roll out of it, are they hurting you or taking your balance or something at the same time? I feel like the uke is pretty much at the mercy of nage at the time of the ikkyo pin. If the uke finds he has one option, isn't it true that the nage has even more options? (He is on top, with balance/stability)

My guess is there is an aiki/internal reason that uke should not be able to move. But in the absence of that, isn't the above still true?
--JW
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:40 PM   #5
eyesman14
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Re: Ikkyo pin

They aren't hurting themselves but I think I found my problem which was that I wasn't stabilizing the shoulder enough that they can't lift themselves up to roll out.

Thanks for the info guys!
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:09 AM   #6
dalen7
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

The way it typically happens is they are only trying to control my arm, and I can roll - also they tend to not even really be controlling my arm. [hard to describe.]

When I do it Im controlling and pinning the arm as well as controlling their body with my leg closest to them and keeping their arm low, lower, etc.

Not sure how to describe it better, but definitely know what your talking about - another thing is timing... that and making sure with each of your movements you have uke off-balanced and/or controlled.

Check it out, at what point are they rolling... stop it, analyze it, and see what you can do to gain control - if there is an open window where your not controlling uke, then the technique wont work.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
When I roll out I typically go for a kotegaeshi pin on them... its fun.
In practicality, if this included striking I would have to modify the roll as Im sure I would get kneed in the head.

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-09-2010 at 01:12 AM.

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Old 02-09-2010, 09:15 AM   #7
Fred Little
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Momentarily setting aside the discussions of whether or not the contemporary "standard ikkyo pin" is a universally functional pin, I would say that there are three simple critical elements that contribute:

1. The shoulder itself must be pinned to the mat. Any gap between the shoulder and the mat can be easily exploited by a moderately resistant uke.

2. Nage's proximal knee should be snug against uke's floating ribs.

3. If one draws a straight line perpendicular to the line of uke's body at the crown of the head, nage's distal knee should be at or above that line, and uke's hand should be above that line.

Cautionary notes: If uke is either "monkey-strong" or has exceptional joint mobility, the above may be moot. If uke is "tight," and has low joint mobility, the knee may need to be drift lower to accommodate the reduced range of motion, in which case one takes the arm up to a position in which the musculature is taut, and judiciously shifts the knee lower to complete the full mat pin.

Hope this helps,

FL

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Old 02-09-2010, 09:59 AM   #8
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.

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Old 02-09-2010, 10:06 AM   #9
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ikkyo pin

I wonder whether as nage you are getting behind in your timing during ikkyo, and allowing slack to develop in uke's arm -- giving them back their center.

In addition to the other advice and information you're receiving, you might also try observing whether there is a pattern developing before your partner begins to escape the pin.

David Henderson
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:04 AM   #10
edshockley
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Atemi is "krazy glue."
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:07 PM   #11
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.

Nagababa

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Old 02-10-2010, 08:35 AM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.
Yes!

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Old 02-10-2010, 11:30 AM   #13
dps
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Re: Ikkyo pin

If the Ikkyo is being done on uke's right arm, take your left knee and place it on top of the shoulder joint instead of in the arm pit.

David
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:08 PM   #14
danielajames
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Agree its a temporary measure and love the knee on the shoulder blade/ neck as do security personal who don't carry swords for the coup de grais

Also thinking of pinning the opposite shoulder to the ground earlier on in the technique helped me a lot by having ukes centre prior to starting the pin .

For more fun and students good for messing around with what-ifs dropping the inside elbow onto ukes rising back works well and if uke sends other limbs your way you can capture them by a circular sweep of your inside arm (the one holding the elbow) for some nice variants and restraint n' removal, and WWF style moves.

dan

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Old 02-10-2010, 08:26 PM   #15
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Ask Sandoval Sensei, after all, it is he who leads your dojo.

I will give you this, if they are rolling out of the pin, you are not executing the pin correctly.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:31 PM   #16
eyesman14
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Ask Sandoval Sensei, after all, it is he who leads your dojo.

I will give you this, if they are rolling out of the pin, you are not executing the pin correctly.

Train well,

Mickey
Thanks, It was a combination of me not doing the pin correctly( the more obvious reason) and my partner having very good flexibility.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:10 AM   #17
Walter Martindale
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Re: Ikkyo pin

One shihan at seminars often said "mukashi" (in the past) we used to do this... (press the elbow down and lift up the hand)
Kinda finishes off the guy's arm, but since we need people with whom to train, we merely pin, and unless you're really good at the pin, people can roll out.
Well, flexible people, I'm fat, stiff, and old, and can't roll out of ikkyo.
W
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:30 AM   #18
Amir Krause
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Yes!
Wanted to post the same thing.

A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.

Amir
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:01 AM   #19
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:47 AM   #20
David Board
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Re: Ikkyo pin

First I apologize for cross posting but wasn't sure how to insure a comments from both lines of discussion without posting in both threads. If this steps on toes, my apologizes...

Anyway, in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).

As a beginner I was hoping that someone would mind relating these two lines of thoughts. I was going to ask if you could resolve the conflict between these two thoughts but I don't see a conflict. It is more that as a beginner I find the two lines of thought to not completely meet. I'm hoping that those with more experience can help me make the connection better (I can do it but it involves Duct Tape, bailing wire and piece of chewing gum).
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:53 AM   #21
Amir Krause
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey
You can turn many techniques into a break, that is true. Few others of my dojo even did that in cases of need.

But then, it would not be a pin, it would be a breaking. Further, the way I am taught in most cases, the break should be performed at the first contact, long before the attacker even touches the ground.

Train well
Amir
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:18 AM   #22
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
...the break should be performed at the first contact, long before the attacker even touches the ground.
I concur.

Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 02-11-2010 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:28 AM   #23
Amir Krause
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

Mickey
I disagree, it is better to have more options then less. And in current society, in most situations, if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off. Of course, the latter is much more dificult to achieve.

Given this, it is important to realize that the way we pin in aikido, can NOT assure long term immobilizing of the attacker. Rather, it would be great for short term, until something else is used (e.g. handcuffs if you are a policemen)

Amir
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:09 AM   #24
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
David Board wrote: View Post
in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).
Well both threads are correct, Aikido is not a complete weapons system, and it is also not a complete empty handed system.

I think most all of us would agree on these points, after that you are asking for different people's opinions.

All martial arts systems are specialized. It has to be this way because the field of martial arts is just too big. Could you imagine a system where you learn to spear fight, swim in armor, ride a horse, fly a helicopter, wrestle, arrange troops on the battle field, disarm nuclear weapons, drive a sub etc etc? It might sound silly when I put all of these things together, but it's all a matter of perspective. To the modern soldier flying a helicopter sounds pretty useful, but spear fighting useless. Just the opposite for a historian, spear fighting is useful in his studies, but helicopter flying a trivial hobby. It's all perspective.

Understanding Aikido's specialization is something I've been working on for quite some time. But like most of us on here it's still in the theoretical stages. There is yet any "pudding" to "prove" anything. So I'll save my own opinions for now.

However Aikido is definitely not Kenjutsu (a martial arts specialized in sword fighting) and is also not a complete unarmed system.

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Old 02-11-2010, 10:38 AM   #25
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off.
Your opinion, and I will respect that...but, not agree with it.

Train well,

Mickey
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