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Old 03-11-2010, 02:38 PM   #51
DH
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Szczepan
I didn't have time to finish-had to get to a meeting.
You made some fairly bold statements in counter to mine-largely based on your personal experiences, I responded with mine. I think you should consider that your are confusing the issue about aiki and disqualifying what I am pointing at from the discussion because of the source-me.

To be clear I am not discussing aiki from X or aiki from Y and comparing to the aiki of Z. I am discussing the aiki FROM within aikido. Aiki is aiki and comes from the same source-a connected body.

Instead of relegating it to spamming, you might want to consider the dozens of aikido teachers who state openly that what I and others are doing and teaching IS the aiki of aikido and are pursuing it rigorously. It of course helps when we all stand there and do, AIkido , Daito ryu, jujutsu, judo, push hands and MMA waza...with aiki. It tends to clear things up rather well and makes good colaberation and friends.
I don't see it as a source of discontent at all.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-11-2010, 02:58 PM   #52
rroeserr
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Aiki deadly techniques – what nonsense.
From Aikido by K. Ueshiba:

At the Headquarter's Dojo in Tokyo the following RULES DURING PRACTICE are posted for all to see and learn:
1) One blow in Aikido is capable of killing an opponent. In practice, obey your instructor, and do not make practice period a time for needless testing of strength.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FqS...age&q=&f=false

Last edited by rroeserr : 03-11-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:10 PM   #53
Gorgeous George
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
From Aikido by K. Ueshiba:

At the Headquarter's Dojo in Tokyo the following RULES DURING PRACTICE are posted for all to see and learn:
1) One blow in Aikido is capable of killing an opponent. In practice, obey your instructor, and do not make practice period a time for needless testing of strength.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FqS...age&q=&f=false
I was thinking of that myself...
Also: i don't know if it was on these forums, or others, but i remember somebody posting a link to a list of accidents - some resulting in death - in aikido training.

And surely if you perform irimi-nage on somebody who doesn't practice aikido, at high speed, on concrete...?
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:11 PM   #54
DH
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
Dan Harden writes:
Sounds good, but now I am curious.
If you are on such a musha shugyo, why not seek out tougher opponents instead of the aikido people who seek you out or the local MMA crowd? What stops you from going to meet with people like Su Dongchen or Chen Bing or Sagawa's student Kimura or whoever Gracie to spar? They might be interested in getting a good run for their money.
Hello Mark
I have met some serious people from traditional Japanese, Chinese and modern arts. There are of course limits with time and money.
I wouldn't consider Kimura worth the effort but there are a number of people I plan on meeting and playing with.

Quote:
That said, I want to bring up a point to see what your thoughts are. Bill Gleason studies with you and has the utmost respect for your teachings. But his video clip of teaching inspired by your stuff that is on Youtube looks mostly like the opening movement to the taijiquan form, and is not that illuminating. You had to do more to him to make him an advocate of your method.
Of course I did. But that is between us. What Bill chooses to introduce and more improtantly when is his affair. He knows his people.
Quote:
1. Do you feel you can teach efficiently what you know? Not every good boxer is a good trainer.
I have and still do. I have taught over 300 people with maybe a dozen becoming very capable.
Quote:
Are you making a mistake in making the people who meet with you over-confident in their own abilities so they can go out and 'change their aikido' without really having the goods that you have?
I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't make anyone " over confident in their abilties" instead I routinely state something along the lines of "I suck, what does that say about you." Ask around with people who actively train here. Most are very focused on their own hard work and have no illusions about where they are.
This is all about nose to the grindstone hard work, with no rewards to speak of other than your own improvements, research and experimentation. What people do and how far they get and what art (or lack thereof) they choose to express it in is their own business. I am not their teacher, senior, or coach.

Quote:
Assuming I have a guy to train under who really knows taiji and bagua and xingyi, what is the benefits of your approach over more classical ideas besides Aikido or kata-based Daito-ryu jujutsu practice?
The way I look at it Mark is our understanding is in our own two hands. I am not really impressed by some teacher with a big name-fet some who are good, most I woudnlt cross the stree to meet again. What really matters is what they have produced in students.

My "approach" (interesting choice of words) works, people improve, and if your local...it's free.

Quote:
Best Wishes,
Mark
Likewise
Dan
P.S. if you want to respond to that take it to P.M. I don't think it belongs here.

Quote:
Not meaning to be rude -- only trying to be succinct. I'm picking Bill Gleason as an example because he is high ranking aikidoka. I've never met him.
There are others, but lets put that aside
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:19 PM   #55
Gorgeous George
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

'It is true that there have been deaths during Aikido practice'

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=438

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=7

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

'Killer Shihonage

Parenthetically, one should bear in mind that shihonage is, in particular, a high-risk technique. It seems that on several occasions in Japan, trainees have died as a result of injuries sustained to the head and neck after having been slammed backward onto the mat while practicing shihonage. The incidents I am aware of occurred in university aikido clubs where the juniors are often physically abused by their seniors presumably for their “edification.” This is somewhat akin to the “hazing” which takes place in the military academies in the U.S.

To continue, it is well-known that the bujutsu arts from which the techniques of aikido are derived evolved historically as means for subduing and defeating the enemy. Inasmuch as the structure of the human body has not changed much over the centuries, except for becoming larger and bulkier, the same potential for damage still exists.'

'Countermeasures against shihonage and iriminage and expert opinion: As can be seen from the above cases, shihonage and iriminage stand out as techniques causing the accidents. In both techniques, it is easy to hit the back of one’s head with the inherent danger of a cranial hemorrhage.'
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:27 PM   #56
DH
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
From Aikido by K. Ueshiba:

At the Headquarter's Dojo in Tokyo the following RULES DURING PRACTICE are posted for all to see and learn:
1) One blow in Aikido is capable of killing an opponent. In practice, obey your instructor, and do not make practice period a time for needless testing of strength.
How would you equate that with the Kissomaru's father who spent an enormmous amount of time practicing the testing of strength?
How do we equate it with others in aikido who did the same?
How about other cultures arts-which produced men with incredible skill gained through body development and testing?

FWIW, the "one blow can kill" idea came from a highly developed body, one which Ueshiba K. apparently did not posess, and one which Ueshiba M. was well know for.

Were I to pick the methods and the development of one over the other- I would take the old man's method for development (not the waza) any day.
I am still no advocate for this whole "deadly technique" idea, but the source of the quote was Takeda, then Ueshiba M.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:18 PM   #57
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Thanks Dan, for responding to my question.

I think that the rule posted at Honbu should be balanced with words from Okumura Shihan who said in an interview in ATM that all the deadly techniques were intentionally taken out of Modern Aikido.

Personally, I agree with everything Matthew has written here. Very nice post.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
First, I don't know whether any forms in Aikido were specifically designed to be deadly, sorry to say so much for not having an answer to the OP.
Finally, my understanding is that techniques are just examples to work through; they're not the point of training, the principle(s) they lend themselves to are. That said, techniques are as deadly as the situation allows them to be. To touch on an earlier point I forgot to follow up on: my understanding is that some folks have died from shihonage. Aikido was deadly to them, even if it was accidental (that luck factor brought up earlier?).
That said: Ueshiba Ryu Aikido as I understand it, in its purest expression, is non-violent and even healing. It takes enormous levels of skill to make that happen against a capable and violently aggressive person so what most of us mere mortals are left with is doing our best with the Aikido we have developed in ourselves. I tell my friends who think simply having some martial arts experience makes me a bad-ass that, if I happen to get lucky and pull something off successfully, I don't know that I have the control to keep a person from putting their head into the window behind me, or into traffic if we're by a street.
BTW, the deaths from shihonage were caused by inexperienced/immature young people under insufficient supervision by immature older people. I bet there are at least as many deaths caused by American Little League baseball players, aimlessly swinging a bat without checking the space around them first.
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:25 PM   #58
rroeserr
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How would you equate that with the Kissomaru's father who spent an enormmous amount of time practicing the testing of strength?
How do we equate it with others in aikido who did the same?
How about other cultures arts-which produced men with incredible skill gained through body development and testing?

FWIW, the "one blow can kill" idea came from a highly developed body, one which Ueshiba K. apparently did not posess, and one which Ueshiba M. was well know for.

Were I to pick the methods and the development of one over the other- I would take the old man's method for development (not the waza) any day.
I am still no advocate for this whole "deadly technique" idea, but the source of the quote was Takeda, then Ueshiba M.
Cheers
Dan
My understanding is the rule came from Osensei when they asked him for some rules for the dojo. Anyway it's his son's books so I have to cite him. Further, I think it's interesting because it's the first rule. I am aware that you have to be connected to generate the power to do that. That was my point - rhetorically - how did a 5 foot tall person generate enough power to do that?

It said needless testing of strength. To me that implies there is a time to test ones self, and other times not too.

Later,
Robert

Last edited by rroeserr : 03-11-2010 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:14 AM   #59
DH
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
My understanding is the rule came from Osensei when they asked him for some rules for the dojo. Anyway it's his son's books so I have to cite him. Further, I think it's interesting because it's the first rule. I am aware that you have to be connected to generate the power to do that. That was my point - rhetorically - how did a 5 foot tall person generate enough power to do that?

It said needless testing of strength. To me that implies there is a time to test ones self, and other times not too.

Later,
Robert
Rumours abound, and we have any number of "who really said what?" problems to resolve. On the whole I tend to dismiss or support various quotes based on corroborating evidence of other sources, and/or what the person actually did. There are any number of misdirections in martial training, with the teacher saying one thing and doing another. When it comes to Ueshiba M. we have a fairly consistent testimony and video of what he actually did to offset what people think he meant. That presents the real dilemma to appropriate practice though doesn't it?
"How did 5' tall person generate that force?"
By the practice methods he pursued which involved lengthy and repetitive testing of strength.

What is "needless testing of strength?"
Hmmm......
It certainly is a nuanced topic; you can't really learn what he was doing without doing the solo training and push testing, yet you can't be a jerk and jam every technique. Yet if you focus on the former you end with a body that is so connected that will cancel out most anything people are going to try on you. In time-your body, on its own will start to do things that will rival that of most shihan you will ever meet -in much less time. Building the connected body is the single most improtant attribute to the speed, potential for control, positional changes, ability to change incoming force, that famous generation of power of unusual strength and all those wierd aiki effects people seem to get a kick out of. Chances are very good that if you were to stay on that road you will eventually surpass everyone who is just doing technique.

I think more and more are realizing that there is a way to join the martial veracity, with the idea of control without harm, while retaining the practice model, and all the while building a body that generates that kind of frightening power...it's called aiki. And I don't think "deadly techniques" were ever much on his mind, his body just produced that type of potential and control and he didn't need techniques to do it.
Personally, I think it is also the reason you saw joy on his face so many times-it just so happens that it's fun.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-12-2010 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:20 AM   #60
Michael Varin
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Shomenuchi komi with jo, if you are aiming for someone's head and find your target, could very easily be a deadly technique, as would many other strikes with jo or bokken. Also, yokomenuchi, tsuki, or other strikes with tanto could easily be considered deadly.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
Shiho nage is one that can kill relatively easily, for example….
You haven't done many shiho nage, have you?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, any technique can be applied with deadly force.
That is just foolish.

For example, an arm bar executed violently can easily break an elbow, but only under freakish circumstances where an artery is severed would this technique directly result in death. The fact that a broken elbow may make it easier to kill your opponent cannot be said to make a technique that breaks the elbow deadly.

If one is going to ponder the "deadliness" of techniques, especially empty-handed techniques, one should very seriously consider the following:
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Of course, if one seriously thinks his techniques are deadly, he must IN REGULAR BASIS use his techniques in deadly manner. In clear -- he must kill people to perfect his skills.
Quote:
George Howard wrote:
It is true that there have been deaths during Aikido practice
The inherent risk of death in a physical activity does not equal "deadly technique."

Lastly, I've got to give it to Dan. He can find a way to market his "aiki" stuff in any context.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:10 AM   #61
Gorgeous George
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
The inherent risk of death in a physical activity does not equal "deadly technique.".
Quite right; i think there has been a bit of discussion which is off-topic (from myself as well): viz., the thread-starter said 'I know they CAN kill, but are they designed to be that way?'.

Having said that, although i'd say that (to my limited knowledge) pins/immobilisations are relatively safe, in that it is hard to see them occasioning death when applied to an unsuspecting person, i can't really see that the same can be said of throws: if they can cause death when applied to somebody who knows what's coming, on tatami...

Of course, whether death is the intent O'sensei had for them is another thing, and that is the topic of discussion.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:40 AM   #62
M. McPherson
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Personally, I think it is also the reason you saw joy on his face so many times-it just so happens that it's fun.
Or he might have been having a good chuckle as people had their respective "WTF/How the hell is this happening?!?" moments. You know, the one that precedes the tears of frustration.

Also, I wanted to congratulate you on the aiki marketing blitz. By the way, I got my order in the mail yesterday; in it I found the Dan Harden Signature Hemp Gi, and the "Dan Harden and Robert Bly Explain Aiki at Esalen" DVD series, but for some reason I'm missing the combination tea cozy/Dan Harden's Aiki weapons bag. Could you have your staff look into that for me? Thanks, and keep up the good work (love the new website and line of t-shirts, btw)!
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:14 PM   #63
chillzATL
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
Or he might have been having a good chuckle as people had their respective "WTF/How the hell is this happening?!?" moments. You know, the one that precedes the tears of frustration.
same thing.
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:20 PM   #64
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
the "Dan Harden and Robert Bly Explain Aiki at Esalen" DVD series
Have you seen how much that's going for on eBay??

Nora Ephron is rumored to be working on a script with Quentin Tarantino called "Days of Shugyo and Gimlets." Not sure who's gonna play Dan . . . maybe Paul Giamatti?
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:44 PM   #65
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
You haven't done many shiho nage, have you?
"Many" relative to what? Most of the folks here? No, but I've done it enough that I think my point on its "relative" danger still seems to make sense to me. I'm not saying it's dangerous like playing Russian Roulette or riding in a Tuk Tuk in Thailand, just that when falling backwards leading with the head (as many uke do during that technique) your likelihood of brain injury goes up a little (I.E. the deadly factor goes up a little compared to other techniques).

Quote:
The inherent risk of death in a physical activity does not equal "deadly technique."
Semantics? Deadly is as deadly does. The riskier the activity, the more deadly it can be said to be. Seems like a simple functioning description to me.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:57 PM   #66
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
If one is going to ponder the "deadliness" of techniques, especially empty-handed techniques, one should very seriously consider the following:
Quote:
Of course, if one seriously thinks his techniques are deadly, he must IN REGULAR BASIS use his techniques in deadly manner. In clear -- he must kill people to perfect his skills.
So learning some hypothetical technique designed to kill isn't learning a "deadly" technique unless you're doing it on live targets? There's a difference between a deadly practice and practicing something deadly.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-13-2010 at 10:59 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:17 AM   #67
Melchizedek
 
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Deadly Techniques?

In Various martial Arts there are many Deadly techniques, moreover Aikido has a creative techniques than destroying techniques ^^ and techniques to Aikido is about correcting your own movements.

A 1st class Martial Artist can reads his opponents heart by just trading blows or throws with him just once even without saying a word.

(deadly then but creative now) just my understanding.

Last edited by Melchizedek : 03-14-2010 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:17 AM   #68
DH
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
Or he might have been having a good chuckle as people had their respective "WTF/How the hell is this happening?!?" moments. You know, the one that precedes the tears of frustration.
Hmmm...yes, Where have we heard that before?
The more things change, the more they.........

Quote:
Also, I wanted to congratulate you on the aiki marketing blitz. By the way, I got my order in the mail yesterday; in it I found the Dan Harden Signature Hemp Gi, and the "Dan Harden and Robert Bly Explain Aiki at Esalen" DVD series, but for some reason I'm missing the combination tea cozy/Dan Harden's Aiki weapons bag. Could you have your staff look into that for me? Thanks, and keep up the good work (love the new website and line of t-shirts, btw)!
Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:

Have you seen how much that's going for on eBay??

Nora Ephron is rumored to be working on a script with Quentin Tarantino called "Days of Shugyo and Gimlets." Not sure who's gonna play Dan . . . maybe Paul Giamatti?
Glad that the both of you appreciated the humor in that one as much as I did. I got a kick out of the comment on "marketing" as much as I did when I was told I was "selling the arts" on E-budo. I must be doing a very bad job of it though. Where's the money and the adoring students!! And how can I be refusing to do seminars and offering; no art, no rank, no affiliation, and teaching for free, and still be considered to be "marketing" anything?

The one skill that resolves all question
I remain patient with the misunderstanding of aiki. The great debate among the aiki arts (DR and Aikido) has always been of the aiki in the arts being martially effective while retaining the ability to control the aggression…and here, while still remaining deadly. Most other arts have dismissed "Aiki" all together, as the people talking about it-many by their own admission, can't seem to use it for much when the pressure is on.

So far no one I have felt or seen in Aikido or DR has been able to demonstrate the level of connection between how aiki, in and of itself, without any techniques, can be powerful, deadly, yet controlling enough to retain the potential for peaceful conclusion that I am discussing. And to do so across traditional and modern formats, and with and without weapons.
It's no small wonder that it is difficult to have a conversation about it with most people in the arts-they're not there yet. Most martial artists simply don't have a clue about aiki's real potential. There are some in the aiki arts who more or less get the ideal, but don't seem to ever pursue more advanced aspects and put them together into a method that will work under severe pressure. As has been demonstrated here by many Aikidoka, they themselves don't believe it is even possible. Then you have guys with some connection, but lack the experience to really work under severe pressure and fight with aiki.
1. What is deadly technique?
2. What can control?
The answer to the former is the solution to the later
It's aiki.

Why discuss it?
Why does it keep coming up?
Why did the founder go on and on about it?
It's rather simple, understanding what Aiki is, and being able to use Aiki under pressure solves the questions and physical dilemmas that routinely are brought up here. It also resolves the historical questions of how it could have been possible that these men- who were deadly- could also talk about not using it for violence. Why there were these men who had this weird "power" that we all read and heard about for generations, and yet most everyone in the arts is still lacking and seeking.

Aiki is the fix; the highest level of skill, that everyone is pursuing and few (as evidenced here) believe is even possible, so they continue to pursue "technique" for an answer they will never find.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-15-2010 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:38 PM   #69
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

As Tomiki Shihan was my instructor, I seriously doubt if anyone would/could throw him around. I am sure he was cooperating in whatever he was doing. Deadly techniques, for me, are chokes. Tomiki has a bundle of chokes from hadaka jime to sankaku jime. They work marvelously.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:29 PM   #70
David Orange
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Alan Lamb wrote: View Post
I was wondering, are there any techniques that were devised or adapted by o sensei, for aikido, that were designed to kill? I was under the impression that the highest level of aikido was to control the aggressor without causing serious harm? I know they CAN kill, but are they designed to be that way?
I think the key to your question is "devised or adapted by o sensei".

The daitoryu he was teaching pre-war did include at least one specifically deadly waza, which could be delivered by iron fan or by the empty hand. It's not a throw, but a strike. Richard Kim recounts a story of a daito ryu master who used this technique to kill a bear. And there are pictures of O Sensei showing this waza well into his old age.

I never thought much about it until one day Mochizuki sensei directed my attention to the anatomy of the uke and I realized that in those photographs, "in plain sight," O Sensei was showing a "killing" technique.

Moreover, I believe that 1) knowing this technique and 2) being willing to apply it are among the foundations of effective aikido.

It will work for a slightly trained person against an untrained person. It will work for a well-trained person against a less-well-trained person. And while it may or may not work against someone with highly developed IT skills (and I think it would), a fighter with both technique and highly developed IT skills could certainly apply it with virtually perfect effect.

The other side of this idea is that being able to kill an opponent and having that as the baseline for all tactical calculations allows one to choose less deadly responses. The contemplation of killing, alone, (or of being killed) should certainly be sobering for anyone and should keep them honest.

So I think O Sensei carried this technique all the way to the end of his life, but I think he very much de-emphasized it in his teaching, especially after the war, and that many who followed him never even knew that the method exists.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:56 AM   #71
bulevardi
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Yes, there is a very deadly technique with the name "tenkan'. However, most deadly technique is "a series of tenkans".
Certainly when performed in a suwari waza mode.

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Old 04-10-2010, 07:58 AM   #72
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

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Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Certainly when performed in a suwari waza mode.
Or you are standing on the edge of a cliff.

David
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:27 PM   #73
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Re: Deadly Techniques?

[quote=Szczepan Janczuk;253516]Are you seriously thinking they were fighting? One thing is to have a choice to kill in deadly fighting, other thing is to have a choice to kill in cooperative practice. Which one are you referring on?

Aikido practice is based on cooperation, so in my opinion there is no serious possibility to develop killing skills.

Dear Szczepan,
Having been in training sessions which included the practice of Shime Waza from a senior Uchi Deshi of O Sensei , and shime waza variations which included severe arm locks being applied I can state categorically that the waza being applied certainly had the potential to kill a person.
Its the same with Judo Shime [choke]Waza could be fatal if Tori does not use good control and judgement.How else could one train in a civilized environment?I have never applied a strangle to any of my training partners [in Judo ] where my partner was as you put it co operating with me.
A dojo is not a war zone, but that doesnt mean that you do not know /have experience of potentially deadly waza.In Aikido I believe that one can acquire the potential to injure / destroy but one can choose not to exercise this knowledge except in extreme situations.
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