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Old 02-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #26
JO
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Re: Jamming a technique

The problem with only discovering where you might reverse a technique or apply an atemi "in your mind" is twofold. On the one hand, your mind may be wrong. I've been in techniques I thought I could reverse only to find out i couldn't. How do I know, because I tried and got shot down. On the flipside, if nage leaves gaping holes in his techniques but nobody walks through them, he never learns to close the holes.

Strong attacks and counters aren't necessarily about ego, but about martial training and trying to give your opponent what he needs to learn, and maybe he needs to learn that his technique could be better. this also goes for attackers. In line with what George mentioned earlier, if your attacker is "jamming" in a way that is martially useless, their are lots of fun ways to point that out

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:40 PM   #27
Eric Winters
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Re: Jamming a technique

Ahmad,

Yes, that is what I am saying. You should not do that type of training 100% of the time but I would say at least 80% of the time you do taijitsu up until black belt and then cut it down to about 50%. It should be done with the attitude of strengthening your partner and yourself. There is generally no need to shut your partner down. If both of you are training with good intentions then you will eventually figure out how to do the technique with little effort.

Best,

Eric
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Old 02-20-2010, 12:20 AM   #28
Eric Winters
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Re: Jamming a technique

Ahmad,

Correction on my last post. What I mean is that uke should be resisting but not enough to jam the technique. Nage should be relaxed but putting a little energy and extension in the movement and of course, use the center and hips to move the uke. I hope this is clear.

Eric
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:32 AM   #29
Lonin
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Re: Jamming a technique

Uke should always be "resisting" to a sempai with neither ego nor a point to prove ( that the nage's showing some weakness or flaws). When training with kohai, uke should gauge the ability level of kohai as nage,give correct amount of resistance to help kohai along.
When doing demo or with sensei during class instructionals, uke should just flow along with maximum 30% resistance.
I personally like the moving through molasses quote. Thanks Eric It is as internal (yin) as aikido can be for me.
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:48 PM   #30
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses...
Eric,

Molasses - sticky, sticking stuff. Perhaps Saito shihan was explaining the principle of ki-no-musubi.

Happy training

David Y
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:51 AM   #31
Lonin
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Re: Jamming a technique

IMHO, just good alignment and grounding of uke's power(resistance/strength). Uke will feel he is either pushing against a wall or a ceiling if he continues in that direction. Reminicent of Shihan Endo's "Atari" maybe.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:10 AM   #32
Abasan
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Re: Jamming a technique

Eric, I agree that Uke should give good intensity and resistance. That's not jamming, its just giving good energy to work with that nage must do it right in order to accomplish his goal.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:55 AM   #33
Eric Winters
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Eric,

Molasses - sticky, sticking stuff. Perhaps Saito shihan was explaining the principle of ki-no-musubi.

Happy training

David Y
David,

That is entirely possible, I don't pretend to know everything he was talking about. I wish I did. I will definitely think about that some more. I do think at least part of it was what I was explaining in my other post.

Best,

Eric
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:04 AM   #34
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Hi Eric,

Now, this is sticky. There is no chance I would be branded a jammer by him, not in this lifetime http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylrcUJc7MIA

David Y
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:28 AM   #35
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
The problem with only discovering where you might reverse a technique or apply an atemi "in your mind" is twofold. On the one hand, your mind may be wrong. I've been in techniques I thought I could reverse only to find out i couldn't. How do I know, because I tried and got shot down. On the flipside, if nage leaves gaping holes in his techniques but nobody walks through them, he never learns to close the holes.

Strong attacks and counters aren't necessarily about ego, but about martial training and trying to give your opponent what he needs to learn, and maybe he needs to learn that his technique could be better. this also goes for attackers. In line with what George mentioned earlier, if your attacker is "jamming" in a way that is martially useless, their are lots of fun ways to point that out
Very good post, JO!
Thanks a lot for giving me the opportunity to make my technique better!

Quote:
Andrew Barron wrote: View Post
IMHO most "jammers" work from either the position of ego and or the pre-knowledge of the technique and therefore the manner in which they can resist it.
I have rarely learned anything from a jammer other than about their personality/attitude.
When faced with a jammer I like to stand there an smile and then allow them to do the technique on me as I perform the role of Uke to help them to work on their flow and technique. As uke I am working on my flexibility and discovering places I might reverse the technique or apply a good atemi (in my mind).
Cheers
May be you didn't search hard enough what to learn?
K.Chiba sensei wrote an article about learning from less advanced students, equal level and more advanced students. Very interesting reading, that applies directly to this topic.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:30 AM   #36
David Board
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Very good post, JO!
Thanks a lot for giving me the opportunity to make my technique better!

May be you didn't search hard enough what to learn?
K.Chiba sensei wrote an article about learning from less advanced students, equal level and more advanced students. Very interesting reading, that applies directly to this topic.
It's a good read.
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:54 AM   #37
David Board
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Re: Jamming a technique

As a beginner, I have encountered two types of Jammers. One has been useful in my learning process and the other has left me frustrated and IMHO wasted my time on the mat.

The first jams my technique. Letting me know I have failed. They then help me through the technique either by "leading ukemi" or verbal ques. This method is effective for me.

The second jams my technique and jams my technique and jams my technique and... Then we move on to the next technique or if I'm lucky Sensei comes over to point me in the right direction. In the end all I've learned is that I wasn't doing the technique correctly. I don't know why. I've spent several minutes of bang my head against a wall when I know there's a door around here somewhere.

As a beginner, I would ask that jammers consider where the person they jam is in their learning. If they are just learning what the technique is, don't just jam but lead them through or at the very least encourage them to find the solution (this has worked for me as well.)

I could see how when I'm not just trying to figure out what the technique is that getting jammed would be a great learning experience and even fun as two partners search for "weakness". But for now, when you jam and leave a beginner standing with no place to go, it is just frustrating. When the process moves beyond just what the technique is to how it works and on to perfecting, I can see jamming as being quite effective as a learning tool help or not.

[For me this "problem" has been rare, once or twice. And in most cases I believe from students that could find the mistake and jam but weren't sure how to guide me through a solution. Which in the end is probably fair enough.]

Last edited by David Board : 02-22-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:09 PM   #38
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Board wrote: View Post
As a beginner, I have encountered two types of Jammers. One has been useful in my learning process and the other has left me frustrated and IMHO wasted my time on the mat.

The first jams my technique. Letting me know I have failed. They then help me through the technique either by "leading ukemi" or verbal ques. This method is effective for me.

The second jams my technique and jams my technique and jams my technique and... Then we move on to the next technique or if I'm lucky Sensei comes over to point me in the right direction. In the end all I've learned is that I wasn't doing the technique correctly. I don't know why. I've spent several minutes of bang my head against a wall when I know there's a door around here somewhere.

As a beginner, I would ask that jammers consider where the person they jam is in their learning. If they are just learning what the technique is, don't just jam but lead them through or at the very least encourage them to find the solution (this has worked for me as well.)

I could see how when I'm not just trying to figure out what the technique is that getting jammed would be a great learning experience and even fun as two partners search for "weakness". But for now, when you jam and leave a beginner standing with no place to go, it is just frustrating. When the process moves beyond just what the technique is to how it works and on to perfecting, I can see jamming as being quite effective as a learning tool help or not.

[For me this "problem" has been rare, once or twice. And in most cases I believe from students that could find the mistake and jam but weren't sure how to guide me through a solution. Which in the end is probably fair enough.]
I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don't develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don't have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death'.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-22-2010, 02:50 PM   #39
Basia Halliop
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Re: Jamming a technique

quote:"I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. "

Well, neither, in a way... personally, I'm coming to the dojo to learn. Often frustration is useful to that, for example in some of the ways you point out. But on the other hand, frustration isn't the goal in itself, it's an end towards a goal, even if the goal is as simple as learning to overcome frustration. If it's paired with learning or is caused by a level of difficulty that you can just overcome if you really stretch yourself and do the things you suggest, it can be good and can push you on and teach you. But it's also perfectly possible to be frustrated AND not learning anything.

Frustration doesn't AUTOMATICALLY lead to a person learning to overcome frustration and find things out for themselves. It has to be the right amount of frustration at the time - otherwise you won't necessarily learn those good traits, and may actually instead get what's called 'learned helplessness' (when people or animals learn to stop trying - this is fairly well studied so there are many examples with both animals and people).

It's the experience of _overcoming_ frustration that leads to those qualities of persistence and ingenuity - so to get the desired effect, the frustration needs to be at a level that you know the subject will overcome it. Persistence in the face of frustration can then also be taught by gradually increasing the level of frustration so that each time the person (or animal) takes slightly longer to get the response they are looking for, but each time they eventually get it and are rewarded for their persistence.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 02-22-2010 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:10 PM   #40
David Board
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don't develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don't have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death'.
Fair enough, perhaps when I have more experience I will agree completely. For now this is my experience. When an Uke is willing to introduce me to technique I learn faster. Hopefully this won't lead me down the wrong path and set bad habits.

Since I 'm not that far from no Kyu and even now haven't seen that many techniques. I still remember watching Sensei introduce a technique. Thinking the hands go this way, the feet this way the hips that way and he's saying to focus on energy that way; damn how did the hands go, never mind time to give it a go. Getting as far as ich and thinking ni, right ni well that's two now were am I going. He went left and...damn what was it. Getting jammed at this stage of my training didn't seem to help. It left me not only frustrated but befuddled. Being told it's like ten kan remember, did help. Being jammed and not knowing why did not. The best sempai (from my beginners perspective) were the ones that didn't give me the technique but didn't leave me stranded.

I did encounter a few of those that left me wondering how to do the technique even though I "threw" them. I could tell I had flubbed the technique. These Uke left me just as frustrated and befuddled. (Do they have a label?) I could see that these Uke may be more "dangerous" in that if I was not aware could feel I had been a success. I threw them after all. But to be honest, I never felt a success.

Now I don't have your experience, but, when I did my first multiple attacker randori. I did get "jammed" or to be honest it was not a jam, more of two of three attackers had gotten me into a position that I couldn't easily escape from. It took me what felt like minutes but I think it was more microseconds, but I remembered what the sempai that had jammed me and remembered how he had me find my way through the jam and escaped. Next, I hope not to have to remember but to just do but for now at least I did something. If I hadn't been coached I'm not sure I could have found the way out of that pickle. But I had been given a way to think about what to do when I was stuck. That training helped.

I don't think that jamming is inappropriate. I can see where you are coming from. However, as a beginner, my experience leads me to believe that jamming a beginner who hasn't even gotten the basic form to be counter productive. Give me a chance to at least understand if I'm going left not right. Now don't let me go right and don't just give me the technique but don't leave me going left, being jammed, going left being jammed and not knowing if the reason I'm being unsuccessful is because I need to spiral my arm, move from my center or the hundred and one errors I've made to date and the million others I can imagine.

I don't want comfortable training. I don't mind being frustrated if I can learn something. I feel I'm getting closer to being able to learn from being silently jammed with no place to go. But for now leaving me jammed on basic techniques with no place to go and no background to fall back on just what I think I saw from Sensei and what I might of felt after taking a Ukemi from a student only a few ranks above me (didn't he get his footwork wrong? I'm not sure. I could of sworn it wasn't right) and in that process spending much of the time trying to remember the basic Ukemi (do I tuck the inside or outside leg? Bugger it. It's time to fall. Ouch, wrong choice). To jam me can be counterproductive if all it is is a jam. You know you did something wrong but what?! Take the next fall, see if you can learn.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:51 PM   #41
Abasan
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don't develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don't have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death'.
I think the problem here is that people of this era believe that as students of anything, we will become accomplished. Just like going to a university means we end up with a degree, we think that by going to dojo we automatically are going to 'get' aikido. By paying sensei, you expect him to transmit his knowledge to you.

You may 'get' aikido. Some people better than others. Some quicker than others. Frustration along the way is inevitable. Learning to overcome jammers is knowledge. Certainly it would really help to be able to fail now in the dojo, than outside when you're truly tested. But if you never learn... then part of it is your problem.

Sensei can guide us, but its our responsibility to learn.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:42 PM   #42
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Re: Jamming a technique

Hi all,

My joy in training - being jammed and challenged mentally to find the solution(s).

My frustrations - receiving charity falls and hence, embarassed with the impression that I can do "no touch" throws, the fact is I can't.

Happy training

David Y
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:06 PM   #43
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Re: Jamming a technique

Hi Ahmad - it is very true.
David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
But it's also perfectly possible to be frustrated AND not learning anything.
I disagree. You are learning all time - not necessary physical techniques, but also other very important aspects. Learning from failure is probably most important.
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Frustration doesn't AUTOMATICALLY lead to a person learning to overcome frustration and find things out for themselves.
I agree. However it teaches you many important things about yourself. When combined with dangerous martial techniques the situation becomes very tense and creates excellent opportunity to develop spiritual aspects of aikido.

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
It's the experience of _overcoming_ frustration that leads to those qualities of persistence and ingenuity - so to get the desired effect, the frustration needs to be at a level that you know the subject will overcome it.
.......hmhm....may be.....I'm not so sure. What I experienced personally, to jump from lover level to next one, you have to be helpless, banging a wall with your head with no effects(with finding solutions). Only in such situation you can destroy all the forms/concepts that you learned so far and build new QUALITY of practice from scratch. It seems to be quite periodic process...

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-23-2010, 06:37 AM   #44
phitruong
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Re: Jamming a technique

sometimes jamming is good; sometimes, not. depends on situation and the person you work with. depends on goal. sometimes i want to test my ability, i would ask my partner to do his/her/its best to jam me. sometimes i would ask my partner to light up because i want to work on my aiki so as not to trigger a lot of my muscle tension. sometimes i would reach out with my fist or foot and lightly tap my partner to let him/her/it know that he/she/it is not in control.

then there are jams that are just hard to deal with (especially the raspberry type) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXKOsajNZY4
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:30 AM   #45
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Re: Jamming a technique

This thread is fantastic. Great stuff.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:11 AM   #46
ruthmc
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn?
That's actually quite a difficult one We are cautioned to use only appropriate resistance when working with a partner, but that can be really hard to gauge...

Somebody's rank or experience is a guide, but you also have to factor in their ability, which can change day-to-day, depending upon their health, fitness, and flexibility (both physical and mental).

Some folk have very low tolerance for frustration and won't respond well to being stopped, whatever your intentions. With these folk it's better to occasionally and briefly suggest improvements as you throw them, rather than saying or doing anything while they throw you!

Some folk are ok with being led through a technique, where you indicate to them the direction they need to go to take your balance while you are uke, verbally and / or physically. I'll tap their leg once and say "move this leg to your right, off the line of my attack" for example.

There's all sorts of variations. However, if you detect that your partner is becoming confused and / or frustrated, then stop what you are doing and call sensei over, or allow them to continue without your input while keeping yourself safe as uke.

In my experience you get the best results if you always explain why the person need make an adjustment - generally the answer is "because you will take my balance and throw me easily if you move in that direction"

Liking this discussion very much

Ruth
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:08 AM   #47
Abasan
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Re: Jamming a technique

As a rule of thumb, anyone in my dojo can jam a shodan and above anytime they want. Keeps the ego in check. Frustrating for shodan yes, but you're there to learn. Not to throw people around. And for shodan, you're assumed to be a knowledgeable and dedicated beginner. One who knows he has much to learn and too little ability just yet.

Appropriate resistance is also vital for helping lower kyu to understand. If sensei jams you, there's really nothing you can do about it. Because his understanding of aiki is much more than yours. Same goes for you vs a beginner. Thus, provide resistance, but provide a way out. If they can't feel the way out, show it to them until they do and understand.

But David i think is talking about jamming between peers. And those peers who like to use strength to accomplish their goal. Thus David's jamming of those brute strength waza is more of self defence really. No one likes to be clothesline at the neck in what nage assumes to be correct iriminage or sayonage.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:14 AM   #48
David Board
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn?
Well at the moment I can learn from being jammed on a subset of techniques. In fact, I have learned from being jammed and enjoyed the challenge. On others, well I'm getting there.

My sensei mentioned the other day that in the old style you should spend two years focusing on your Ukemi. So maybe two years .

You probably have a better idea than I do. What I know is that I've only learned some basic techniques. Others I've done only a few times. These techniques would be very challenging if you jammed me. However, I'm beginning to see/feel some of the basic ideas that seem to link the techniques. I think I could apply some of this to a new technique if I was jammed. So I hope soon.

That being said if things sped up I'd be in trouble. So for now I'm learning. So at this point in my training, jam me if you like but if I can't seem to find my way through be willing to point me in the right direction. If you don't well, so be it. I'll take what I can from the training and continue to search for a solution to the puzzle you have presented.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:28 AM   #49
jxa127
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Re: Jamming a technique

As a rule of thumb, I tend to go through a technique once or twice with nage before I actively work to exploit holes. I also tend to not exploit holes with people who have less experience than I -- at least not at first.

Often, I say something before trying to jam a technique or reverse it. I'll say, "Hey, I feel something odd, let's do it again."

With some people, though, I simply try the reverse or atemi, or whatever. It's a great way to learn how to be a better attacker. It often happens that a hole I thought I could exploit turns out to either (a) leave me terribly open or (b) it's really not there.

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Old 02-23-2010, 12:35 PM   #50
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y
Hello, david
Nope rest assured that you are not a jammer, from what you say you are being unilaterally awkward and deserve every bit of the pounding you are getting and in my personal opinion you should probably get a good deal more.

You take the gloves off by putting some resistance without cheeking with your partner may be he trying to work on his movement or flow and the last thing he needs a numb-nuts resisting.

I am all for resistance training but there is a place and a time and it need to be bilateral and agreed upon from the onset.

You would laugh if I said that I am going full on all the time because I want to give my partner a good ukemi practice and if I was wondering why people call me a beast.
Well resisting without telling is exactly the same.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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