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Old 02-24-2010, 02:11 AM   #51
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post

WTheck does TSYR stand for. The Silly Young Rebel? Two Small Yearling Rabbits? Tango Sierra Yankee Romeo? The Society Yoda Rejected?
Come on.
W
Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu if I remember correctly...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:08 AM   #52
Walter Martindale
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu if I remember correctly...
Ah..
Thanks heaps.
Walter
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:34 PM   #53
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Re: Ikkyo pin

If uke can roll over his shoulder, the pin is wrong. The Ikkyo pin doesn't have to break, dislocate or be full of crap. It absolutely CAN pin someone down and keep them from rolling over their own shoulder through correct physical position, not magic.

This is not going to come out correctly writing it, but i'll try anyway... Let's say you're pinning the right arm. Think about knee walking. Your left knee is in the armpit, but your right knee is not down yet. This is the mistake most people make, in my opinion. Let uke's arm rest on your right thigh. By allowing your right knee to be up, it causes uke's hand to be off the mat the arm is on an angle. That angle determines how much pressure is pushing uke's right shoulder into the mat. If Uke can still raise his shoulder or roll over it, turn your center to the left towards uke's head and slowly lower your right knee down. The more your center pivots toward uke's center, the more pressure is applied to the right shoulder.

It gives a wonderful stretch and the downward pressure on the shoulder will keep uke from rolling out of it.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:03 PM   #54
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Re: Ikkyo pin

You do not understand ikkyo either, give back the black pants..

I do not think you want to dispute this example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique, according to Aikikai standards, that is what you list as your heritage., correct?

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:47 AM   #55
Peter Chenier
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Re: Ikkyo pin

If I may..and with respect..is it not true that ikkyo is no waza..so would not any pin be that happened after defeating the uke's attack on point of contact be considered an ikkyo pin?
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:02 AM   #56
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Wanted to post the same thing.

A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.

Amir
Dear Amir,
Having been pinned in ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo by very senior Shihan your assertion that you can escape easily from a pin is incorrect.If the pin[especially Sankyo ] is applied correctly and
with power the likely outcome of this would be uke tapping out .When pinning with ikkyo , you have to ensure ukes arm is at the correct angle[slightly above shoulder level], strong pressure must be exerted on elbow joint and you as Tori have to maintain Zanshiin to take steps to vary the hold depending on reaction of uke.No reason why you cannot hold elbow with one hand and apply atemi on ukes neck for example.Hold the head in place and the guy has trouble moving.In Judo for example to pin a man you control, onne arm , head and hips.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:56 PM   #57
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Re: Ikkyo pin

You can also control uke's left and right hip through the ikkyo pin. For example, if you're pinning the right arm and uke attempts to lift his left hip, he'll tend to pivot his body on his right shoulder, lifting the arm up removes the shoulder pivot point. The opposite is true with the right hip, lower the shoulder down removes the ability to pivot on the left shoulder.

I may have that reversed, I haven't done that in a while.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #58
Fred Little
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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You do not understand ikkyo either, give back the black pants..

I do not think you want to dispute this example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique, according to Aikikai standards, that is what you list as your heritage., correct?

Train well,

Mickey
I would argue that the Tissier clip is less an "elbow" technique than an "upper arm immediately above the elbow" technique.

On the other hand, Rokkyo is the sort of thing I think of when I hear the phrase "elbow technique."

But I don't really care about nomenclature nearly as much as I once did, because I've spent enough time in academia to see what an empty shell game it generally turns out to be. In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.

Best,

FL



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Old 03-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #59
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.
Oh, Fred, thank you :-)

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Old 03-13-2010, 09:58 PM   #60
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique
It's neither elbow nor shoulder. Those are just tools to get down the spine to manipulate uke's center.

Just like kokyudosa is neither an elbow nor shoulder technique, but you use uke's wrists, elbows, shoulders and spine to get to his/her center.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:10 AM   #61
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Dear Amir,
Having been pinned in ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo by very senior Shihan your assertion that you can escape easily from a pin is incorrect.If the pin[especially Sankyo ] is applied correctly and
with power the likely outcome of this would be uke tapping out .When pinning with ikkyo , you have to ensure ukes arm is at the correct angle[slightly above shoulder level], strong pressure must be exerted on elbow joint and you as Tori have to maintain Zanshiin to take steps to vary the hold depending on reaction of uke.No reason why you cannot hold elbow with one hand and apply atemi on ukes neck for example.Hold the head in place and the guy has trouble moving.In Judo for example to pin a man you control, onne arm , head and hips.
Once, I thought the same as you...

Since then, I have met people who have better understanding of playing in such situations (laying on the ground). Thus, I came to realize that given good knowledge of such play (better then that of the pin holder), a TRAINED person can get out of the pin.
To escape, one would have to strain some, suffer some pain (depending on his flexibility), twist and simultaneously change the angles in multiple joints (e.g. elbow and shoulder) and so slowly change the original situation and get out of the pin.

Note, this does not mean the pin is useless, it does gain the pin holder a great advantage and a level of control for some limited time. And, if you are much better trained, you should be able to hold the pin for very long duration.

Amir
P.S.
From what I hae been told, the same is true for judo pins, there are ways out for most of them, even given Judo rules. A better trained person could normally get out of a lesser trained person pin given sufficient time. And that is despite most Judo pins have larger areas of contact.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:53 AM   #62
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
If I may..and with respect..is it not true that ikkyo is no waza..so would not any pin be that happened after defeating the uke's attack on point of contact be considered an ikkyo pin?
Actually we call it katame waza and we don't consider it as part of ikkyo. But I think the spirit of the discussion refers to the pin as the one done after doing ikkyo.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:12 PM   #63
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Does anyone know of a video where the shoulder is being pinned down with an ikkyo pin?

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Old 03-16-2010, 10:27 AM   #64
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
I concur.

Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

Mickey
Really? Even in classical koryu one had real situations in which one could not permissibly respond to a very real attack by doing possibly mortal or even serious injury -- such as being attacked by your lord's dissolute angry son, for instance, or someone else under his protection, ... While the classical era allowed for liberal killing in some circumstances -- there were very strict rules for that sort of thing, that could just as easily put the defender at hazard....

Let's say you are attacked by:

1) your brother-in-law (drunk or sober)

2) a cop (hopefully drunk)

3) a distraught mother/wife/sister of someone at the scene of an accident

Are seriously saying that there is no utility in pinning, classically or modernly?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:33 AM   #65
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.
"An argument is a connected series of statements, intended to establish a proposition -- it isn't just saying, 'No, it isn;t.'"

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:48 AM   #66
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

On a related note, however, this does bring a useful issue of how we should deal with escalation -- in training and otherwise. I have been thinking about this bit.

It seems to me that one school of thought likes to keep the escalation very low -- and with a lessening of the "rate" of escalation, if you will. The thought seems to be that the ramp up to possibly damaging intensity is thereby made less likely.

I think that is actually wrong, and that the "shape" of a safer escalation dynamic is actually less obvious than the "low-key" approach. I think in images for abstract concepts quite often, and they are hard to capture sometimes, but I think work quite well on this one.

This is the dynamic 'shape' that I think most people try to adopt when escalation is a concern.



This is the image of the dynamic I have, or strive for:



In martial terms, it is very necessary to be very close to the border between mere discomfort or threat and actual wounding. Thus, ramping quickly up to, and maintaining, the dynamic in that borderline area or dynamic cusp level is very important.

I think people have a false sense of comfort with the 'width' of the relatively flat part on top of the bell curve dynamic. Staying there involves a lot of second-guessing about the direction or sign of the immediate dynamic as well maintaining level of intensity, (i.e -- alternately pressing or relenting), to avoiding falling off into irrevocable injury or back into (martially) pointless "dance."

The second one seems far better than the first to me. The defining line between discomfort and irrevocable damage is very clear on the second one, and depends on intensity alone, not the direction of the pressure-- which is always in the same direction, so there is only one variable, not a change of sign or 'wobble' in the action. there is not relenting only pressing and then only the moderation of rate of increase to guage absolute intensity.

In the first image however, "dynamic" momentum could very easily put you over the hump into damaging territory, and perhaps unnecessarily or very likely unintentionally. The first image puts a sharper and more defined "point" or cusp on the dynamic, and at the same time makes the intensity ramp up sharply rather than tail off or become "wobbly".

That gives fairly definite dynamic goal for training --- the same one as for actual engagement -- just shy of the point of doing real injury in the given circumstance with a steep (and natural) slope of de-escalation or a narrow but very sharp and distinct boundary into real damage if necessity provokes the extra intensity needed to "push" over that sharp peak.

The "dynamic" cusp approach would seem to result in a deterrent to initial aggression (a bonus factor, not a goal) -- the lower "ramp up" seems to have little deterrent advantage, and actually seems more dangerous for "carrying over" inadvertently into the irrevocable injury territory. There seem to a number of "cusps" shown in various scenarios, or waza, (or bunkai or batto for the weapons folks), This perspective seems to me somewhat important as a training observation as well as in the management of actual violence and a way to tie them meaningfully together.

Just a thought raised by the pinning discussion.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-16-2010, 01:40 PM   #67
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Erick,

Kata only...we do not live in fuedal Japan and honor means nothing in today's society.

Do you have a graph, chart or historical reference for the degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate?

Thanks for your input.

Mickey
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:27 PM   #68
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Erick,

Kata only...we do not live in fuedal Japan and honor means nothing in today's society. Do you have a graph, chart or historical reference for the degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate?
Who said anything about honor? Action of any kind is not free of obligation to circumstance as long as there are social consequences to that action -- and there always are -- right, wrong or indifferent.

Put more bluntly, if my car breaks down in a neighborhood of (how did you say? "degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate") and I find myself having to depart alone with a weapon of six rounds and a gang of ten with indeterminate weapons, I'd best be minding my manner of escalation to keep it from getting too high too fast, because very little of mine is likely to do me much good if the ultimate conclusion is reached.

But the same is true of long distance randori appropriate to that circumstance as is true of pins -- in the larger scheme of things. It is all of a piece in how we connect and engage -- be it exceedingly hard or intangibly light.

We should all broaden our horizons as to the beginnings and the endings of engagements because those connections become established whether we know it or not-- and change, whether we like it or not, and we may not like the narrower kind of connection awareness that gets visited on us.

Quote:
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Thanks for your input.
Anytime.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:43 PM   #69
David Board
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
On a related note, however, this does bring a useful issue of how we should deal with escalation -- in training and otherwise. I have been thinking about this bit.

It seems to me that one school of thought likes to keep the escalation very low -- and with a lessening of the "rate" of escalation, if you will. The thought seems to be that the ramp up to possibly damaging intensity is thereby made less likely.

I think that is actually wrong, and that the "shape" of a safer escalation dynamic is actually less obvious than the "low-key" approach. I think in images for abstract concepts quite often, and they are hard to capture sometimes, but I think work quite well on this one.

This is the dynamic 'shape' that I think most people try to adopt when escalation is a concern.



This is the image of the dynamic I have, or strive for:



In martial terms, it is very necessary to be very close to the border between mere discomfort or threat and actual wounding. Thus, ramping quickly up to, and maintaining, the dynamic in that borderline area or dynamic cusp level is very important.

I think people have a false sense of comfort with the 'width' of the relatively flat part on top of the bell curve dynamic. Staying there involves a lot of second-guessing about the direction or sign of the immediate dynamic as well maintaining level of intensity, (i.e -- alternately pressing or relenting), to avoiding falling off into irrevocable injury or back into (martially) pointless "dance."

The second one seems far better than the first to me. The defining line between discomfort and irrevocable damage is very clear on the second one, and depends on intensity alone, not the direction of the pressure-- which is always in the same direction, so there is only one variable, not a change of sign or 'wobble' in the action. there is not relenting only pressing and then only the moderation of rate of increase to guage absolute intensity.

In the first image however, "dynamic" momentum could very easily put you over the hump into damaging territory, and perhaps unnecessarily or very likely unintentionally. The first image puts a sharper and more defined "point" or cusp on the dynamic, and at the same time makes the intensity ramp up sharply rather than tail off or become "wobbly".

That gives fairly definite dynamic goal for training --- the same one as for actual engagement -- just shy of the point of doing real injury in the given circumstance with a steep (and natural) slope of de-escalation or a narrow but very sharp and distinct boundary into real damage if necessity provokes the extra intensity needed to "push" over that sharp peak.

The "dynamic" cusp approach would seem to result in a deterrent to initial aggression (a bonus factor, not a goal) -- the lower "ramp up" seems to have little deterrent advantage, and actually seems more dangerous for "carrying over" inadvertently into the irrevocable injury territory. There seem to a number of "cusps" shown in various scenarios, or waza, (or bunkai or batto for the weapons folks), This perspective seems to me somewhat important as a training observation as well as in the management of actual violence and a way to tie them meaningfully together.

Just a thought raised by the pinning discussion.
Just so I understand. What are x and y on these graphs? And also can you clarify, what function creates them and how does that function change so that so that the two can be compared? Or are they two functions and if so how do they differ? Sorry to barrage you with questions. I am just having trouble relating what you are saying with what those graphs represent.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:39 PM   #70
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Just so I understand. What are x and y on these graphs? And also can you clarify, what function creates them and how does that function change so that so that the two can be compared? Or are they two functions and if so how do they differ? Sorry to barrage you with questions. I am just having trouble relating what you are saying with what those graphs represent.
It is demonstrative, not representative, but --- the one I prefer is a tractrix. Vertical scale is roughly dynamic intensity to the point of yield from recoverable injury to irrecoverable, beginning at the cusp (breaking stuff). X would be the respective will of the opponents in opposite sign -- from my perspective -- my willingness to engage on one side of the cusp and his will to disengage on the other side (that is actually the correct basis for the curve in question the "hundkurve" was literally described by a dog on a leash -- on one side the dog pulling the owner toward some item of attraction, and on the other the owner pulling the dog away from it -- so it is more than merely demonstrative in that sense.

The one I critique (the bell or quasi~parabolic) is one that I think most people *think* is better, a slow escalation and as nearing the peak, getting flatter, more hesitant, less steeply rising in intensity. Problem being the boundary is unclear and verging into the breaking or irrecoverable damage area is harder to avoid unintended, and to maintain near that peak, which is necessary, involves more variables, because the sign of the curve and the intensity both change too subtly in too wide an area to give clear signal where the gradient is going --giving an opponent a false sense perhaps, that you are withdrawing, and thus prolonging the engagement with false hope. Also the rounder curve encompasses more area under it, and thus accumulates more total harm both recoverable and unrecoverable.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:23 PM   #71
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Only Erick could somehow bring a graph into a discussion about ikkyo...

Since many of the suggestions on this thread address the initial poster's question about improving the ikkyo pin, I will slightly digress to the larger points of the role of pinning and and importance of pinning in aikido. I think pins are great tools for flexibility and restraint and improve connection between uke and nage.

First off, pinning is uncomfortable when done correctly; the pin should not result in injury, but it should be uncomfortable and persuade uke from attempting to escape the pin.

Second, pins indicate the cessation of technique. Pins are the ultimate, "please stop, this exercise is over." We can both agree to end an exercise, but I can demonstrate control over uke through the use of pinning. In this sense, we treat pinning as part of aikido "kata" because it is the last element of the technique.

Third, pins work. Functionally, the pin is symbolic of the time in which it would take nage to end the exchange, either through personal violence (the "draw my weapon and kill you" approach) or restraint (the "hold you down til the cavalry arrive" approach).

The debate therefore is not whether pins work, but rather what motivates uke to solicit a more uncomfortable pin by attempting to escape. To that extent, it concerns me when uke attempts to escape a pin because that signals uke does not believe the exchange to be at its end. Pins should communicate, "I can hurt you, you cannot defend yourself. Stop your actions and submit to me."
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:25 PM   #72
David Board
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It is demonstrative, not representative, but --- the one I prefer is a tractrix. Vertical scale is roughly dynamic intensity to the point of yield from recoverable injury to irrecoverable, beginning at the cusp (breaking stuff). X would be the respective will of the opponents in opposite sign -- from my perspective -- my willingness to engage on one side of the cusp and his will to disengage on the other side (that is actually the correct basis for the curve in question the "hundkurve" was literally described by a dog on a leash -- on one side the dog pulling the owner toward some item of attraction, and on the other the owner pulling the dog away from it -- so it is more than merely demonstrative in that sense.

The one I critique (the bell or quasi~parabolic) is one that I think most people *think* is better, a slow escalation and as nearing the peak, getting flatter, more hesitant, less steeply rising in intensity. Problem being the boundary is unclear and verging into the breaking or irrecoverable damage area is harder to avoid unintended, and to maintain near that peak, which is necessary, involves more variables, because the sign of the curve and the intensity both change too subtly in too wide an area to give clear signal where the gradient is going --giving an opponent a false sense perhaps, that you are withdrawing, and thus prolonging the engagement with false hope. Also the rounder curve encompasses more area under it, and thus accumulates more total harm both recoverable and unrecoverable.
Hmm, not sure I see them demonstrating that but that's probably because I'm used to a graph being more than a vague sketch. My apologies for getting caught up in the analogy and not in what you are trying to say.

So back to the mat with me and hopefully some day I'll better understand what you are saying.
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:17 PM   #73
Walter Martindale
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post

(Snip)

Third, pins work. Functionally, the pin is symbolic of the time in which it would take nage to end the exchange, either through personal violence (the "draw my weapon and kill you" approach) or restraint (the "hold you down til the cavalry arrive" approach).

The debate therefore is not whether pins work, but rather what motivates uke to solicit a more uncomfortable pin by attempting to escape. To that extent, it concerns me when uke attempts to escape a pin because that signals uke does not believe the exchange to be at its end. Pins should communicate, "I can hurt you, you cannot defend yourself. Stop your actions and submit to me."
Another personal violence thing about the pins - the "take your weapon with which you tried to kill me, and kill you" approach...
W
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:18 PM   #74
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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David Board wrote: View Post
Hmm, not sure I see them demonstrating that but that's probably because I'm used to a graph being more than a vague sketch. My apologies for getting caught up in the analogy and not in what you are trying to say.

So back to the mat with me and hopefully some day I'll better understand what you are saying.
It's a military thing. We love the graphs and diagrams on process, dynamic and op tempo stuff... It comes from playing with "the implements of destruction" -- leading -- inevitably -- to the proverbial "twenty-seven 8 X 10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on on the back explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence against us.. ."


Point for the thread topic being, however and agreeing with Jon, that folks quite often either get into "throw mode" ignoring the pin as the natural resolution of the engagement at a "cusp" in the dynamic -- or try to force the pin somewhere else too soon, or carrying on past that cusp with force to break something, when the pin should just appear and you simply "firm up" into the shape of it.

The canonical waza (IMO) are fairly well set up to make that point easier to see -- if you do it correctly, and harder if you don't. The ikkyo pin is really just a continuation and maintenance of the peak energy of the ikkyo shape but on the ground. focus on the arm and the torso is free to roll.over the shoulder, engage the arm and the shoulder but do not reach to torso and the torso can still logroll around behind you -- One must continue and maintain the same ikkyo cutting dynamic that torques the arm, shoulder AND torso in a longitudinal spiral while reaching through his center -- otherwise the pin won't work - the pin is the waza, just reoriented and slowed, like water turning to molasses, with the same flow energy and intent, like a knife at the throat.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-17-2010 at 04:21 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:56 PM   #75
David Board
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
Location: Reno/NV
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It's a military thing. We love the graphs and diagrams on process, dynamic and op tempo stuff... It comes from playing with "the implements of destruction" -- leading -- inevitably -- to the proverbial "twenty-seven 8 X 10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on on the back explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence against us.. ."


Point for the thread topic being, however and agreeing with Jon, that folks quite often either get into "throw mode" ignoring the pin as the natural resolution of the engagement at a "cusp" in the dynamic -- or try to force the pin somewhere else too soon, or carrying on past that cusp with force to break something, when the pin should just appear and you simply "firm up" into the shape of it.

The canonical waza (IMO) are fairly well set up to make that point easier to see -- if you do it correctly, and harder if you don't. The ikkyo pin is really just a continuation and maintenance of the peak energy of the ikkyo shape but on the ground. focus on the arm and the torso is free to roll.over the shoulder, engage the arm and the shoulder but do not reach to torso and the torso can still logroll around behind you -- One must continue and maintain the same ikkyo cutting dynamic that torques the arm, shoulder AND torso in a longitudinal spiral while reaching through his center -- otherwise the pin won't work - the pin is the waza, just reoriented and slowed, like water turning to molasses, with the same flow energy and intent, like a knife at the throat.
Ah, I'm a statistical ecologist and the normal distribution caught my eye. I then brought a lot of my bias of what that sort of graph represents into what you were trying to say. Should of read with beginners mind, as they say. You would think as a beginner that would be easy but some times my other training gets in the way of my training.

I'm tracking now. Thanks for your patience.
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