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Old 02-11-2010, 05:19 PM   #26
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
David Board wrote: View Post
First I apologize for cross posting but wasn't sure how to insure a comments from both lines of discussion without posting in both threads. If this steps on toes, my apologizes...

Anyway, in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).

As a beginner I was hoping that someone would mind relating these two lines of thoughts. I was going to ask if you could resolve the conflict between these two thoughts but I don't see a conflict. It is more that as a beginner I find the two lines of thought to not completely meet. I'm hoping that those with more experience can help me make the connection better (I can do it but it involves Duct Tape, bailing wire and piece of chewing gum).
David,

Semantics is a pain isn't it? How do you define a complete weapons system? I would suggest that since aikido is descended from classical Japanese martial arts, that is where one should start looking.

Bugei Juhappen - 18 martial skills to be studied by the samurai during the Sengoku Jidai (Mid 15th Century - Early 17th Century).

Kenjutsu (Swordmanship)
Battojutsu (Sword Drawing)
Sojutsu (Spear Fighting)
Naginatajutsu (Naginata Fighting)
Kyujutsu (Archery)
Kyuba (Mounted Archery)
Suijutsu, (Swimming)
Bōjutsu (Stick Fighting)
Nagamono (Polearm Fighting)
Torimono Dougu (Arresting Weapons)
Kakushi Buki Jutsu (Hidden Weapons) .
Jujutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Shurikenjutsu (Blade Throwing)
Hojutsu (Musketry)
Jouhou Kaishuu (Information Gathering)
Chikujou (Fortifications)
Angou (Signaling)
Jinei/Heihou (Strategy and Tactics)

Given that Ueshiba did not include even a fraction of the above that include weapons, I think its fair to say aikido cannot be considered a "complete" weapons system in the sense of classical Japanese martial arts.

In fact, most koryu are not "complete" as defined by the bugei juhappan, but many are considered comprehensive as they include several of the above areas of study. These "comprehensive" schools are referred to as sogo bujutsu.

(Before someone asks, TSYR includes 7 of the above in various forms.)

As for aikido not representing a complete empty hand system, it doesn't, but who cares? An argument could be made that Okinawan Karate does not represent a complete empty hand system either. It all in the defining.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-11-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:27 PM   #27
David Board
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
David,

Semantics is a pain isn't it? How do you define a complete weapons system? I would suggest that since aikido is descended from classical Japanese martial arts, that is where one should start looking.

Bugei Juhappen - 18 martial skills to be studied by the samurai during the Sengoku Jidai (Mid 15th Century - Early 17th Century).

Kenjutsu (Swordmanship)
Battojutsu (Sword Drawing)
Sojutsu (Spear Fighting)
Naginatajutsu (Naginata Fighting)
Kyujutsu (Archery)
Kyuba (Mounted Archery)
Suijutsu, (Swimming)
Bōjutsu (Stick Fighting)
Nagamono (Polearm Fighting)
Torimono Dougu (Arresting Weapons)
Kakushi Buki Jutsu (Hidden Weapons) .
Jujutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Shurikenjutsu (Blade Throwing)
Hojutsu (Musketry)
Jouhou Kaishuu (Information Gathering)
Chikujou (Fortifications)
Angou (Signaling)
Jinei/Heihou (Strategy and Tactics)

Given that Ueshiba did not include even a fraction of the above that include weapons, I think its fair to say aikido cannot be considered a "complete" weapons system in the sense of classical Japanese martial arts.

In fact, most koryu are not "complete" as defined by the bugei juhappan, but many are considered comprehensive as they include several of the above areas of study. These "comprehensive" schools are referred to as sogo bujutsu.

(Before someone asks, TSYR includes 7 of the above in various forms.)

As for aikido not representing a complete empty hand system, it doesn't, but who cares? An argument could be made that Okinawan Karate does not represent a complete empty hand system either. It all in the defining.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Thank you, I have come to the conclusion that complete was the wrong word to use. I knew I didn't want to use effective/ineffective because I've seen what where that can go. Perhaps if I rephrase my post and what I am having difficulty with.

In the this thread folks seem to be saying that the purpose of the open handed techniques or at least ikkyo is to be able to use your weapon. In the weapon thread folks are suggesting that the weapon work is to be better understand the open hand techniques.

If I'm not careful I send myself into a spiral were on technique is designed to use a technique that is designed to prefect the technique to allow me use the technique that is...

I know that is a caricature of the two arguments but in the end I feel that I am missing a piece of the puzzle. There is a link that is missing to connect the two discussions.

The link is probably Aikido itself and as a beginner I am just not comfortable enough with what Aikido is to understand that link.

Thank you for your answer. Even though it wasn't what I was looking for it does help to consider the historic background of Aikido and how it may relate to the question.

By the way what is TYSR?
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:03 PM   #28
JO
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey
I disagree with this post, especially in a thread about ikkyo. I can see tearing wrist ligaments on a nikkyo takedown and dislocating a shoulder on the nikkyo pin. Lots of elbow locks could be pushed into tearing the elbow joint. But ikkyo? I don't see how it can be construed as anything other than a takedown type technique. When done fast against a strong attack, you might flatten the attacker pretty hard, but even then.

As far as the peace and love stuff goes. I don't consider crap, nor do I consider it as being opposed to effective technique (from a martial sense).

Also, considering that aikido is a descendent of the samurai combat arts, temporarily immobilizing an attacker while you draw a weapon makes more sense as a martial origine for the ikkyo pin than trying to break a limb or to "destroy" him with an unarmed technique.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:19 PM   #29
Allen Beebe
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Re: Ikkyo pin

This is penance for the past:

I inadvertently "disabled" a friend of mine with an Ikkyo pin while speaking with him through the pin making sure I wasn't hurting him. He is a very high ranking Karate teacher and I not only screwed up his arm, but I screwed up his seminar teaching at the same time.

A student of mine (one of the nicest most gentle guys I know) visiting another dojo inadvertently broke his partner's arm with his ikkyo pin. He was mortified and of course his partner was in a great deal of pain.

BTW, both of these instances were done with very little power or force. When done properly the pin requires almost no force. The "pin" was just done "correctly" to the point of injury.

Ikkyo can injure. Ikkyo can break.

Please be careful. Both sides are "hurt" in accidents!

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:24 PM   #30
JO
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.
I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I figure the original post had more to do with this last bit. So here's my take on making ikkyo work (there is some overlap with what others have posted, but I have a few thoughts to add).

As you bring the arm down and around on the takedown, make sure you are already in control of the shoulder and that the control connects with the uke's center. As the shoulder comes to the mat keep the pressure on. If uke is not under control here, you probably won't make it to the pin.

At this point (uke on the ground with shoulder pinned to the mat and nage with at least the inside knee down), I will move forward with the outside leg while keeping ukes arm againt the upper thigh opf that leg. This is to find the angle at which the uke's arm/shoulder is "tight". Someone already mentioned the more than 90 degree rule. But the actual required angle will vary on the flexibility of the uke. I know people with stiff shoulders who tap out before 90 degrees and others that are still twisting around with a lot of mobility with their arm up by their ear. If a really solid pin is wanted, I would only stop when uke taps out, then release a little pressure before continuing the pin.

I then kneel with the outside knee and slide the arm to the ground, keeping the pressure at the "just about to tap" point. Once the arm is down, I nestle the outside knee into the wrist at the base of the thumb. From there I spread my knees apart, pushing one into the ribs and the other agaist the wrist. This creates an extension on ukes arm. At the same time, I use my hands (one on each side of the elbow) to roll uke's arm so that the elbow points forward and down towards the mat.

Assuming you aren't dealing with a "Gumby" uke and that he didn't squirm out, this should create a tense, twisted feeling running through ukes whole arm, through his shoulder into his side, and this whole part of the body should be held flat against the mat. At least that's how it feels to me as uke when the control is well done.

Last edited by JO : 02-11-2010 at 07:33 PM.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:31 PM   #31
JO
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
This is penance for the past:

I inadvertently "disabled" a friend of mine with an Ikkyo pin while speaking with him through the pin making sure I wasn't hurting him. He is a very high ranking Karate teacher and I not only screwed up his arm, but I screwed up his seminar teaching at the same time.

A student of mine (one of the nicest most gentle guys I know) visiting another dojo inadvertently broke his partner's arm with his ikkyo pin. He was mortified and of course his partner was in a great deal of pain.

BTW, both of these instances were done with very little power or force. When done properly the pin requires almost no force. The "pin" was just done "correctly" to the point of injury.

Ikkyo can injure. Ikkyo can break.

Please be careful. Both sides are "hurt" in accidents!

Allen
Despite my other post, I know that ikkyo can injure. My wife once decided to see what would happen if she attacked a senior student full force on shomen uchi ikkyo. She was spun around in the air, landed hard on her feet and caused a micro fracture in a vertebra.

But I'm really curious. How does an arm break in ikkyo? What part breaks and where/how did the force act on the arm to break it? Seems like a usefull piece of knowledge to have in order to avoid accidents.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:31 PM   #32
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I
Also, considering that aikido is a descendent of the samurai combat arts, temporarily immobilizing an attacker while you draw a weapon makes more sense as a martial origine for the ikkyo pin than trying to break a limb or to "destroy" him with an unarmed technique.
Jonathon,

Actually that makes no sense. Consider......Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?

In TSYR, ikkyo is called "soto ude otoshi" and its execution is considered a potential arm breaker, followed by a stab with a tanto or wakazashi.

Toby Threadgill

Addendum....

Jonathon, just saw your question.

The arm doesn't necessarily break. The elbow usually dislocates first with nasty damage to the ligaments, tendons and surrounding soft tissue. It makes a horrible squeaking noise! Occasionally a spiral fracture of the radius and ulna can occur, (Don't ask why I know this stuff......)

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-11-2010 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:58 PM   #33
JO
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Jonathon,

Actually that makes no sense. Consider......Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?

In TSYR, ikkyo is called "soto ude otoshi" and its execution is considered a potential arm breaker, followed by a stab with a tanto or wakazashi.

Toby Threadgill

Addendum....

Jonathon, just saw your question.

The arm doesn't necessarily break. The elbow usually dislocates first with nasty damage to the ligaments, tendons and surrounding soft tissue. It makes a horrible squeaking noise! Occasionally a spiral fracture of the radius and ulna can occur, (Don't ask why I know this stuff......)
Not disaggreeing. I would hardly dare to on this topic considering your knowledge and my lack thereof. But for my continued education, would the breaking of the arm be considered and esential part of the technique or a "bonus"? I mean, two samurai are involved in combat, they are armed and armoured, everybody involved is a trained fighter (and likely knows something about receiving and countering techniques), how much does breaking/dislocating arms come into play in the focus of this kind of technique?

Last edited by JO : 02-11-2010 at 08:02 PM.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:20 PM   #34
Allen Beebe
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Hi Jonathan,

What Toby said! And yes, there are ways to make sure that one or all those things happen, it's built into the kata. My Aikido sensei taught the introductory Ikkyo pin one way so that one knew how to produce the "desired" result, and then another way so one could see the kata through to the proper end (without the "desired" result.)

Both of the instances I mentioned earlier were done the "safe" learning way so consequently without the "safe" finish and, well, sh** happens . . .

Done the full way . . .

BTW, to my mind performing a good Ikkyo isn't a sign of talent, getting to where one can perform a good ikkyo, THAT is a sign of talent. Everybody loves to focus on the end forgetting the fact that they probably died three times before they got to the end.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:55 PM   #35
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?
Thank you, Mr Threadgill.

Quote:
Not disaggreeing. I would hardly dare to on this topic considering your knowledge and my lack thereof
Since Mr Threadgill already replied, as I would have....appears that you sing a different tune depending who is in the audience.

I have had the necessity to pop a few joints within the scope of my profession. An Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Oshi Taoshi, SongSet or armbar, whatever you want to call it, is a quick disabler when it needs to be.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:58 PM   #36
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.
I might also add to this that the Ikkyo pin is an extension building excercise. It is used to learn to direct your energy and focus to a certain point. You need to develop that along with the pin in order to make it more effective. As for anything else, the position of your body may help with those who are more flexible or trained in BJJ.

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Old 02-12-2010, 05:14 AM   #37
JO
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Thank you, Mr Threadgill.

Since Mr Threadgill already replied, as I would have....appears that you sing a different tune depending who is in the audience.

Mickey
It's not a question of who's in the audience, it's how they communicate. Your post I responded to initially was just a statement with no supporting information, paired with a second statement that was dismissive of a lot of people's training. Toby's response was detailed and to the point. I am fully willing to change my mind when faced with a reasonable argument.

This has made me think of ikkyo in a new way. I have had my joints tweaked on just about every other joint lock and have received injuries that took months to fully heal from kote geashi and shiho nage, but never anything of the sort from ikkyo. Just goes to show that even after more than ten years of training, one person's experience does not tell the whole story.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:43 AM   #38
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

In my opinion, the ikkyo pin cannot keep a person immobilized, but can prevent a person from attacking directly a second time, and also allows for disarming the attacker. I think that a lot of people focus too much on trying to get the uke to tap out. Since this isn't a sport, I don't see much point in getting uke to tap out. I think it is better that as soon as the uke hits the ground, he should try to get up and attack the nage again directly (not rolling out, but just using force to push back toward nage). I think if the pin is applied correctly, the uke will not be able to get up. For practice, this is when uke should tap, as a signal that he can't get up to attack, and the technique is finished (not because the nage is putting the pain on). If uke wants cease attack and roll out, I say let him. I want to give uke every opportunity to disengage and cease attack. In my experience, I have found this effective against ukes much larger and stronger than myself.

I know of two primary ways of applying the ikkyo pin. One is with the elbow bent. This I have found to be most effective in preventing uke from rising up to attack, but makes it easier to roll out. The second is with the arm flat on the ground, which makes it more difficult for uke to roll out, but I have had trouble keeping down larger and stronger ukes with this pin.

While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.

-John Matsushima

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http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 02-12-2010, 11:09 AM   #39
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey
Oh, so when you train at your dojo you break, dislocate, or destroy your partners limbs on your "pins"? Don't think I'd be up for training there...

Of course all of our training has an "omote" and an "ura" aspect. The martial application "ura" is normally what Saotome Sensei calls the "dark side" of the training. It is certainly not the dominant paradigm in Aikido, unless one is doing some sort of distorted version of the art.

As has been pointed out, there is a way to do this pin and make it highly effective, even when you haven't totally destroyed your partner's arm. That's the practice. The fact that it is not really a "submission" hold in the way that other locking techniques might be and skilled grapplers can usually find a way out of it with a bit of effort doesn't mean that an understanding of how to use the pin in a non-injurious application means it is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"
Most violent confrontations faced by civilians, especially males, are not deadly force confrontations. Deadly force is defined as anything incurring "serious and lasting bodily harm". In other words, most martial arts techniques fall into the "deadly force" category and legally are just about interchangeable with using a firearm. This is especially true for law enforcement, corrections, and security personnel. The idea that concerns with how to apply technique at a less than deadly force level is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"
is simply a silly samurai wanna be cheap shot and it is inaccurate.

Not only do professionals need to know how to use "less than deadly force" but so do civilians. You really do not want to be in court explaining how you destroyed some guys arm in a pin after he drunkenly took a swing at you. You would almost certainly be found guilty of excessive force. You would be sued and you would lose. Pay up big time...

One the the things that makes Aikido so useful in self defense applications is its flexibility along the whole continuum of force. This is something which most other martial arts do not have. Understanding that is certainly not
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"
I'm sorry but I found this to be one of the more ridiculous comments I've seen lately.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:09 PM   #40
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

While my opinion carries little weight, I shall weigh in anyway:

I think there is a pretty utilitarian difference between a break and a pin. A pin is meant to control someone, while a break tends to subvert that attempt at control (unless you want to control them mentally by causing pain, I guess).

Sometimes one can run into a practitioner who attempts to apologize for poor technique by claiming there is a more brutal way in which to execute said technique. While there is truth to that, there still remains those who abuse that fact (the fact that we train in an injury-concious manner) by claiming every technique/pin they do that doesn't work well isn't being done "for real." All too often that technique is simply being done less correctly than it could be. Take the ikkyo/ikkajo pin for example: if uke's arm is not, at least, perpendicular to their spine, they can easily roll forward to get out of it (for me, I need to get uke's arm/wrist above their shoulder). At the same time, if nage/tori/shite's inside knee is not in uke's armpit, uke has a chance to bring their body to their arm and, again, roll out of it. If their shoulder isn't actually 'pined' to the ground, they can pretty much stand up or roll to the outside.

This shoulder off the ground thing is pretty prevalent in all face down pins, not just ikkyo. Some tend to focus creating pain in the elbow or shoulder joint which actually assists in pulling uke's shoulder off the ground (I'm thinking more of the other face down pins more so than ikkyo). The natural tendency when focus is on the elbow is pull up and twist vice pushing constant pressure down. Then, when someone does a 'what if' and gets out, the response is "well I'd break your elbow or destroy your shoulder." That's all good and fine, but it's also important to control, ie pin, that guy or gal to the ground if one is so inclined to do a pin.

When my teacher does a face down pin on me, my actual shoulder hurts from the pressure of being nailed into the floor. Sometimes it feels like my shoulder is hitting the subfloor through the mat. Rarely is there much pain to my joints (tons of pressure, though).

While that, again, is more for non-ikkyo face down pins...I tend to think of ikkyo as being similar to yonkyo (the yonkyo technique, not necessarily the pin). While it's always nice to get the kyusho jitsu aspect of yonkyo, the actual pressure point/pain is totally secondary to actual control. Similarly, with Ikkyo pin, it seems an effective technique to pin someone to the mat without needing to cause pain anywhere. Again; in my opinion, pins great....breaks great, but two different things (but pins do set up for breaks nicely...aikido has helped expand my karate kata bunkai quite a bit).

v/r
A

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Old 02-14-2010, 10:33 PM   #41
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Oh, so when you train at your dojo you break, dislocate, or destroy your partners limbs on your "pins"? Don't think I'd be up for training there...

Of course all of our training has an "omote" and an "ura" aspect. The martial application "ura" is normally what Saotome Sensei calls the "dark side" of the training. It is certainly not the dominant paradigm in Aikido, unless one is doing some sort of distorted version of the art.

As has been pointed out, there is a way to do this pin and make it highly effective, even when you haven't totally destroyed your partner's arm. That's the practice. The fact that it is not really a "submission" hold in the way that other locking techniques might be and skilled grapplers can usually find a way out of it with a bit of effort doesn't mean that an understanding of how to use the pin in a non-injurious application means it is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

Most violent confrontations faced by civilians, especially males, are not deadly force confrontations. Deadly force is defined as anything incurring "serious and lasting bodily harm". In other words, most martial arts techniques fall into the "deadly force" category and legally are just about interchangeable with using a firearm. This is especially true for law enforcement, corrections, and security personnel. The idea that concerns with how to apply technique at a less than deadly force level is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

is simply a silly samurai wanna be cheap shot and it is inaccurate.

Not only do professionals need to know how to use "less than deadly force" but so do civilians. You really do not want to be in court explaining how you destroyed some guys arm in a pin after he drunkenly took a swing at you. You would almost certainly be found guilty of excessive force. You would be sued and you would lose. Pay up big time...

One the the things that makes Aikido so useful in self defense applications is its flexibility along the whole continuum of force. This is something which most other martial arts do not have. Understanding that is certainly not
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

I'm sorry but I found this to be one of the more ridiculous comments I've seen lately.
Wow...you must really like to hear yourself talk. All that for a three line post, of which you totally missed the point.

Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?

Force continuum training and Coopers Threat assessment dictate escalation of force with response alternatives. This is a living evaluation as technology progresses. If you had any law enforcement experience, your dissertation on culpability/liability would have been omitted, though I could be wrong.

And finally, the fluff and peace-love and yada-yada crap proliferates the aikido world, here is a query for reflection, " what effect am I having on it? ". Just because YOU say something, does not make it fact. Get use to hearing that line, I am not the only one who thinks that is true.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:39 AM   #42
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?
Well, actually Michael, I was a Washington State Defensive Tactics Master Instructor for about ten years. I taught Defensive Tactics to various Police Departments as well as corrections and security folks. I taught Defensive Tactics, which included Use of Force at our local community college in their Administration of Criminal Justice Dept. I taught an ultra low level force restraint programs to local school personnel as well as juvenile corrections personnel. I did Executive Protection training for a couple of years for one of the big corporations here. My partner and I were contracted to consult on one company's Use of Force Policy. I also did DT training for club security personnel.

All training needed to have the Use of Force and Continuum of Resistance as part of the program. It wasn't just "theoretical" since if someone I had taught ran into legal issues over excessive force I could have been included in whatever law suit might have resulted.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:47 AM   #43
mickeygelum
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?

Well, actually Michael, I was a Washington State Defensive Tactics Master Instructor for about ten years. I taught Defensive Tactics to various Police Departments as well as corrections and security folks. I taught Defensive Tactics, which included Use of Force at our local community college in their Administration of Criminal Justice Dept. I taught an ultra low level force restraint programs to local school personnel as well as juvenile corrections personnel. I did Executive Protection training for a couple of years for one of the big corporations here. My partner and I were contracted to consult on one company's Use of Force Policy. I also did DT training for club security personnel.

All training needed to have the Use of Force and Continuum of Resistance as part of the program. It wasn't just "theoretical" since if someone I had taught ran into legal issues over excessive force I could have been included in whatever law suit might have resulted.
George, a simple " No " would have sufficed. Thanks for your input.

I apologize to th OP for the direction that this thread has taken.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:06 AM   #44
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo pin

A simple "no" would not have been an answer to a question that begins "when did you ever.....?"
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:44 AM   #45
Amir Krause
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I disagree with this post, especially in a thread about ikkyo. I can see tearing wrist ligaments on a nikkyo takedown and dislocating a shoulder on the nikkyo pin. Lots of elbow locks could be pushed into tearing the elbow joint. But ikkyo? I don't see how it can be construed as anything other than a takedown type technique. When done fast against a strong attack, you might flatten the attacker pretty hard, but even then.
I can not give you any medical details, but I do know a fellow practitioner did create a break of some sort, I think the damage was actually to the shoulder while standing. Just to clarify - he was a security officer and the attacker was on drags. Actually, it was many years ago, so I doubt I could give any details.

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John Matsushima wrote: View Post
While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.
And then, on the other hand, we are doing Korindo Aikido, and so we might not be talking of the same Ikkyo ( I have seen some differences in the Ikkyo we use compared to those seen in Aikkai seniors videos). So, if Ueshiba developed a different Ikkyo in his Aikido, we are definitely not doing it.

Amir
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Old 02-15-2010, 08:20 AM   #46
Amir Krause
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Quote:
if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off.
Your opinion, and I will respect that...but, not agree with it.

Train well,

Mickey
Sorry,

But I am not sure I understand your suggestion. You would prefer to use a break even though a pin is sufficient to "end the conflict"?

I am not in LE myself, but even as a civilian, I have been in situations at which the required level of force to prevent escalation and conclude the conflict was low (even to the level of just making my presence aside the victim obvious to the aggressor). Why should I wish to use excessive force? (not to mention the limits it creates to training people above have mentioned)

So far, I did not have to use M.A. for S.D. purposes. I have some "dojo mates" who did, and they did it successful, so the hints about
Quote:
"fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"
are totally misplaced. Especially that these are not even part of my lineage...

Amir
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:16 PM   #47
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.
Hi John,

I respectfully disagree with your assumption here. From a purely technical standpoint Ueshiba didn't "develop" anything. What Ueshiba developed was an expression of technique based on a mindset divorced from classical budo. I have seen virtually every version of every technique in aikido in other schools of koryu jujutsu. Ikkyo, exactly like Ueshiba perfomed it can control, dislocate or tear to smithereens an elbow joint. That's the whole point of good aikido and what George Ledyard was getting at. The option to apply graduated force/control as a philosophical underpinning to technique IS the aikido paradigm. If you think Ueshiba never damaged his uke's, you need to read up more on ol' Morihei. I think he broke Gozo Shioda's arm with an Ikkyo once....

Now, ( I think George and Allen would agree with me here) if an application of technique is devoid of control and inherently damaging, it's probably outside the paradigm of aikido. Consequently, a technique that does not contain the potential of inflicting serious damage is probably not aikido either. An effective technique that is incapable of inflicting bodily damage is IMHO.. an aikido ivory tower pipe dream. It is not a reflection of genuine budo. I have seen some applications of aikido technique that were closer to dance than budo, utterly dependent on an extremely cooperative uke to be successful. If such training is employed as a simple drill, I'm fine with it. However, if such execution of technique is passed off as an actual expression of aikido as budo, I am liable to roll my eyes. I propose there's not much out there that can effectively control a determined adversary that doesn't contain within it the potential for inflicting serious bodily damage. That's just the nature of human physiology and good budo, be it koryu jujutsu or aikido.

In my experience what makes an exceptional aikidoka or koryu bujutsuka is the ability to execute technique in such a way that it provides numerous options. Aikido and koryu jujutsu don't necessarily pursue the same options even though they may apply technique in an identical manner.

I fail to understand how the application of effective but safe technique is necessarily fluffy bunny stuff or how the application of damaging waza is necessarily barbaric. It's all a matter of the situation presented. If you damage but do not maim or kill a determined adversary in the process of defending another from serious physical harm, isn't that still an expression of "aikido" ?

It all comes down to having the technical capacity and depth of training experience to choose an appropriate option. The options of koryu budo are based on a time and place quite different from that of modern aikido. However, to assume the application of technique MUST necessarily be different, demonstrates a lack familiarity with both.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-15-2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:17 PM   #48
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Sorry,

But I am not sure I understand your suggestion. You would prefer to use a break even though a pin is sufficient to "end the conflict"?

I am not in LE myself, but even as a civilian, I have been in situations at which the required level of force to prevent escalation and conclude the conflict was low (even to the level of just making my presence aside the victim obvious to the aggressor). Why should I wish to use excessive force? (not to mention the limits it creates to training people above have mentioned)

So far, I did not have to use M.A. for S.D. purposes. I have some "dojo mates" who did, and they did it successful, so the hints about
are totally misplaced. Especially that these are not even part of my lineage...

Amir
The standard for Use of Force application is called the "reasonable man" standard. In other words, what would a so-called "reasonable man" perceive a given threat to be and the he is expected to apply force accordingly.

If a non-injurious immobilization could have ended an encounter, applying a far more destructive breaking technique could easily be considered excessive force. The standard is higher for someone with training, like a martial artist. In other words he is expected to exercise more restraint than a typical citizen because his training raises the threat threshold.

You definitely do not want to be in front of a jury with the plaintiff's lawyer asking you if you can say for sure that a lesser application of force wouldn't have stopped the threat. It's difficult to prove a negative. The fact is, you are far better off from a legal standpoint having attempted a lower level force technique that failed and then applying the more destructive application.

Of course you have to make the decision yourself what the threat level is and it needs to be believable to a jury of folks who are not trained and are often repulsed by techniques which seem savage to someone not trained. You'd best believe that the plaintiff will have shocking full color pictures of the injury.

This is always a difficult area. Far more officers are injured due to under application of force on the initial hands on than there are subjects injured due to excessive force. As a civilian you are required to remove yourself from the threat if reasonably possible (preclusion) whereas security professional go towards the threat. If you could have precluded the whole encounter by removing yourself from the scene and then you stay and destroy the guys arm, you are really going to have a hard time on the stand in front of that jury.

The whole point of my earlier post was that most martial arts techniques come from arts that at one point in their history were combat arts. The majority of the techniques contained in these arts fall well within the definition of "deadly force ". So the "reasonable man" would have to perceive that he was in danger of "serious and lasting bodily harm" before he could use techniques of that level against an opponent. The whole thing is "subjective" in the sense that you are the one who articulates what your own perception of the threat actually was at the time. However, it has to be believable to a judge or jury.

For instance, a two hundred pound martial artist when confronted by a smaller drunk with no apparent raining will have a very difficult time making anyone believe he was afraid for his life unless a weapon was present or there were several attackers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with knowing some very destructive techniques. In the case of a confrontation with multiple attackers, it may be the correct and most effective thing to do to totally destroy the first guy you touch. That has been known to end a violent encounter right there. But training for everything to be executed at the maximum level of destructive power and assuming that this is how you'd do a technique in any encounter regardless of these other factors is both irresponsible and can get one into legal trouble.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:17 PM   #49
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ikkyo pin

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Isaiah Fernandez wrote: View Post
I was just wondering how you prevent somebody from rolling out of the ikkyo pin?

Thanks
Use the knife taking pin
or
Pin the elbow to the floor and lift the hand
or
Put one knee on the elbow, the other knee on his back, and if you feel like stretch and push his neck with your front arm.

But more than likely he is not rolling out ot the pin he his rolling out of the technique. When you are transitioning to the pin is when he has the opportunity to escape which mean that he must have gotten the timing and measure before that.
Phil

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Old 02-24-2010, 01:19 AM   #50
Walter Martindale
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Re: Ikkyo pin

Alrighty then. Ikkyo can pin effectively - Once again, I'll ask again on behalf of the others who have asked:

Toby Threadgill... please (unless in skimming the thread I've missed it, in which case I apologise).

WTheck does TSYR stand for. The Silly Young Rebel? Two Small Yearling Rabbits? Tango Sierra Yankee Romeo? The Society Yoda Rejected?
Come on.
W
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