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Old 02-03-2010, 07:19 PM   #51
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

St. Paul's description of agape or "selfless love" from the First Epistle to the Corinthians:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13: 1 - 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:46 PM   #52
Thomas Campbell
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
St. Paul's description of agape or "selfless love" from the First Epistle to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 13: 1 - 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
It's sometimes difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the gongs and cymbals.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:52 PM   #53
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
It's sometimes difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the gongs and cymbals.
granted.
it is unfortunately oftentimes hard to separate the work of the master playwright from the bad acting of the fool on the stage.
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:10 AM   #54
L. Camejo
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
... folks do often seem to fall on one "side" or the other of the love-power dichotomy. Most folks agree both are important, but most folks also seem to be a little more ready to support one and not the other. Interesting to me is that this fits with my running impression of people in general since most folks I've known seem to fall in one camp or the other and rarely seem to appreciate both equally...or at least seem far more inclined to imply one is more important than the other while professing both to be equals.
I think this is exactly as it should be. In my experience there is a time and situation where a particular type of love is most applicable based on the situation at hand and personalities involved. At times an open heart is the best response, at others a closed fist is the best response. Both are very powerful. Often we need the right combination of the two - is not takemusu aiki the ability to instantly manifest the correct response for a given situation to bring about an end result of restoring "harmony"? Communication is as much about oneself as who one is trying to communicate with imho. Training should foster the centredness to apply the right amount from either category imho.

Just a thought about the love schtick.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:48 PM   #55
Johann Baptista
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Re: The "love" schtick

Much of this talk about the Kotodama and the meaning of the word "Aikido" is a little over my head. Personally, I like my theory that O'Sensei got the word from Portuguese. You say !? Let me explain:

Aikido with an "R" at the end means "Oh what pain!" In Portguese . Sounds like a good description of Aikido to me, at least right now with my bruised shoulder.

Humor aside: Since everyone is different, Aikido is different for everyone. But Aikido was created with a vision to promote love, and without that, it is not Aikido. Regardless, Aikido is a fighting art, and its emphasis on peace does not prevent the Aikidoka from cultivating martial effectiveness. Those that claim Aikido is only for philosophy are forgetting O'Sensei's skill. It is a wonderful tool, through which we can express love through fighting, harmonizing through conflict, Yin and Yang. Like the Daoist symbol, Aikido is not complete without both extremes. A true warrior must expound both values, like the ideal Jo (Just read the weapons article). A good Jo must not be too hard, or it will be brittle, or too soft, for it will dent.

All of this being said, I agree with George. The founder would only have chosen the direct students he did, if he trusted that they understood the message he was trying to deliver.

Also, it pains me to think that so many people have lost faith in the spiritual. Aikido simply isn't worth following only for its physical techniques. O'Sensei would lecture his students for hours on the spiritual properties of Aikido.





- Johann
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:19 PM   #56
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
Aikido is different for everyone. But Aikido was created with a vision to promote love, and without that, it is not Aikido.
Well, if you look at O-Sensei's writings, he very obviously references the basis for Aikido against the classiscal Chinese theories. I.e., Aiki-do is not unique or he would not have made all of those references.

Think of a Christian, Jew, or Islamist discussing the flood of Noah without understanding the Flood in the background of Gilgamesh or in the current understanding of how the Mediterranean was created by a natural dam bursting after the Ice Age (a huge natural catastrophe). If you look at the writings of Ueshiba about Aiki, you can see very easily that they represent at least an artificially dressed-up version of standard Chinese cosmology, in much the same way that the "flood" stories represent a much more ancient and standard mythology (based on real happenings or not).

"Aiki" is about as unique as Noah and the Flood is, in actuality, it turns out. The "unique sounds" within the Kotodama fall into the same realm. To pretend otherwise is to pretend that Noah's flood was unique and Gilgamesh and all the rest never happened. Fairly provincial.

Try this:
Quote:
Various sounds or "pithy" phrases (Kou Jue) may be used to vibrate various parts of the internal organs of the body. This will cause the Qi to move through blockages and therefore cure illness. The sound "shee" is used to reduce fire in the liver and release pent-up emotions. The sound "hai" produces movement in the intestines or stomach and will relieve internal pain that is commonly expressed with a groan. Extending out the tongue, while making the long sound "deng," serves to regulate the pumping action of the heart. The "ha" sound is useful for reducing internal heat. The sound "en" is used to press the diaphragm downward, which induces the bowels to move. The sounds "heng" and "ha" are used in martial arts training and applications, with heng coordinated with inhalation and ha with exhalation. Qi Gong doctors use specific sounds for different treatments. Buddhists use the pithy phrase "um ma ni ba mi heng"to exercise the internal organs.
The truth shouldn't be confused with strength of belief. The real truth is to be found in the spectrum of information, not in the isolated focuses.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-11-2010 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:34 PM   #57
lbb
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Think of a Christian, Jew, or Islamist
I believe the proper (and polite) term is "Muslim", Mike.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:40 PM   #58
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "love" schtick

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I believe the proper (and polite) term is "Muslim", Mike.
In English, Arabic, or what language, Mary? Thanks for the heads-up.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-14-2010, 04:25 PM   #59
CorkyQ
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Re: The "love" schtick

These kinds of discussions always seem to be rooted in the aikido practitioner's perspective of what he is doing, but try examining the question from the perspective of the non-aikidoist attacker.

First, put yourself in the role of attacker. Surely you feel justified attacking or else why would you put yourself at risk to do so?

Your target tries some airy, magical ki flowing movement that has no connection to what you are doing and gets his head removed. No harmony in that - it is brute force and the "aikidoist" lost. You've "won" but this is just the beginning of your trouble. History will back that up. Here is one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntFJT8NVzrg, and here is another: http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/39323062.html Blame your target for not fighting back with better skills, it's still your problem and "the way of harmony with ki" is a dream.

This time your target deftly avoids your strikes and breaks your balance. He controls you, perhaps by pain compliance techniques, perhaps by just taking advantage of your over extended attack, but he allows you to crash to the ground, be pinned, or otherwise be "made to do what he wants." In other words, you are controlled. Was harmony achieved? Do you now feel that your justification for attacking is wrong simply because your target has superior martial skills? Do you feel anything resembling harmony? Or might you just wait until you can shoot the aikidoist who bested you in the back from twenty yards away? Here's a fun example of subsequent retaliation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFoR612mLdU . Think about which aikido techniques throw the driver of a truck who is determined to run over you instead of grabbing your wrist or striking you upside the head with a yokomenuchi... better gain an additional set of skills... Hey, bomb shelters can work... maybe.

This time your target deftly avoids the impact of your strike and rather than treating you like an a-ho' for feeling justified in striking out, compassion rules his state of mind (true victory being victory over himself, and all that) and he treats your attack as an error, protecting you as your attack brings you to the ground. From your vantage point on the ground, feeling as if you put yourself there because there was no resistance to your attack, and even feeling supported through your mistake instead of slammed to the ground or controlled, are you then in a state of mind to escalate your attack?

Bearing in mind that "insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result", if you are sane enough to realize that the person you are attacking is really less than a threat, actually more like a friend because his response to your attack is rooted in love, where would your justification be in finding a more insidious way to get around his defense in order to destroy him?

From the attacker's point of view, which aikidoist is going to create something from his actions that is the closest to harmony, conflict resolution, making the world a better place, etc.?

Each aikido practitioner has the opportunity to look at aikido as he sees fit, and one can judge Osensei to be a fool or a liar for making any and every one of the proclamations he made about love being the essence of aiki. You can also believe that underneath all his empty "love" talk (or simple misinterpretation) was Osensei's true belief he developed Aikido to simply "make (other people) do what you want." If you believe that, why not carry a firearm? It works a lot faster and takes a lot less training than controlling someone with a joint lock or dashing them to the ground.
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:39 PM   #60
L. Camejo
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
This time your target deftly avoids the impact of your strike and rather than treating you like an a-ho' for feeling justified in striking out, compassion rules his state of mind (true victory being victory over himself, and all that) and he treats your attack as an error, protecting you as your attack brings you to the ground. From your vantage point on the ground, feeling as if you put yourself there because there was no resistance to your attack, and even feeling supported through your mistake instead of slammed to the ground or controlled, are you then in a state of mind to escalate your attack?
This is interesting. A comment and a question if you will:

1. - Unless the attacker attacks with the initial intent of ending up on the ground in a "protected" manner he will realize that something was done by the Aikidoka to get him there. In this case he has still done "what the Aikidoka wanted" if he did not then his attack would reach its intended target, unless of course he never intended on reaching his target, which is something very different.

2. - How exactly do you train the ability to deal with the attacker while keeping him "protected"? Does this training work even when the attacker has a severe advantage in power, skill, mindset and intent over the Aikidoka? Or is it limited to situations where the power/skill gradient is advantageous to the Aikidoka?
Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
You can also believe that underneath all his empty "love" talk (or simple misinterpretation) was Osensei's true belief he developed Aikido to simply "make (other people) do what you want."
Ueshiba M. developed many things, but Aiki is a concept that predated him - he learned it from someone else. His concept of what Aikido is on the other hand depends on who you speak to imho.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:23 PM   #61
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
2. - How exactly do you train the ability to deal with the attacker while keeping him "protected"?
Same way you might wrench your daughters shoulder out of socket, bruise her ribs and lacerate one side of her face --to get her out of the path of a truck. The key to her understanding is in her realizing the truck might have hit her. If she did not see the truck -- well you have a problem to resolve in your relationship. Seems to me the same analogy applies here... if you really care about the attacker you will keep it up, until he maybe sees the truck this time.

In training -- there is no truck -- so one must come as close and as carefully as you can and your partner can bear -- to showing him a decent outline of a truck.
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Does this training work even when the attacker has a severe advantage in power, skill, mindset and intent over the Aikidoka? Or is it limited to situations where the power/skill gradient is advantageous to the Aikidoka?
Seems to me that if it does not -- it is not aiki. The best aiki I have seen or done makes the attack(s) an irrelevancy. "Power" is generally seen as an increase in leverage advantage. But aiki is the inverse -- shear -- un-levering. "Power is calculably destructive and thus predictive ( not consciouly or rationally so , but still, linear -- aiki is chaotically destructive and defies prediction -- once the opponent has seen it applied he cannot calculate further expression into his sensibility on any balance of "power" .

I see aiki as an application of shear -- moving the center of action at will. The simplest example of this is a the classical lever, a long beam,short fulcrum, and pushing on the beam trying to lift the resisting load. So, the beam is sprung between the inertia of the load and the application of the push on the beam end. Classically, the contest is between increasing the resistance of the load or increasing the push on the beam. At some point the push is exhausted, the load is lifted or the beam fails at the fulcrum by breaks.

But there is another possibility -- move the fulcrum with a rotation and the push becomes progressively disadvantaged, and the stress on the beam is progressively lessened, and the effective load resistance becomes progressively greater -- without pushing back. Done dynamically the change in rotations by moving the center of action (in-yo ho) reflects the push back on itself and catastrophically disrupts it out of phase. THAT is aiki.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Ueshiba M. developed many things, but Aiki is a concept that predated him - he learned it from someone else. His concept of what Aikido is on the other hand depends on who you speak to imho.
Not if we think in concrete terms as he did. Aikido flows from not merely using an incident of aiki in conjunction with another set of tools (yawara for instance) but aiki and aiki only. The physical model involves zero additional effort to accomplish the result -- just a willingness to enter fully driving the center of action toward the opponent (the center showing there is a rotation in driving in -- i.e. - irimi-tenkan) -- but one must drive in without negating the attack -- The correct attitude for that is one driven by only one state of mind and body , which exists in one and only one circumstance, the same one where you will, without an moment's hesitation or concern, willingly and severely injure your kid -- to save her from that truck.

Love ain't teddy bears-- or a box of chocolates.

Aiki depends on the physics, and so can be applied in isolation where it has rational advantage, with other methods -- But Aiki is the physical consequence of that "mama tiger" motivational disposition achieving a correct concrete connection -- the coinciding of those two is the proper business of Aikido. -- As I see it. There have been failures of degree on both counts -- too numerous to list.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:48 AM   #62
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Does this training work even when the attacker has a severe advantage in power, skill, mindset and intent over the Aikidoka? Or is it limited to situations where the power/skill gradient is advantageous to the Aikidoka?Ueshiba M. developed many things, but Aiki is a concept that predated him - he learned it from someone else. His concept of what Aikido is on the other hand depends on who you speak to imho.

Just some thoughts.

LC
Hi Larry,
First, I think the whole doing ones Aikido with a "spirit of loving protection" has more to do with the manner in which we train rather than some self defense outcome based wishful thinking.

As someone who has taught police and security defensive tactics I would say that the most difficult thing in martial arts is to restrain someone who is fighting you and not hurt them. In my opinion, it takes a great deal of skill to do so. If the opponent's skill is commensurate with yours, I do not think it is possible.

There is something along the lines of a "conservation of the quality of the energy" in a martial encounter. If someone has a really strong intention to hurt or maim you, that will be what comes back to them in the encounter. For example, there was the story about the swordsman who challenged O-Sensei. He attacked with real intent to kill or injure. The Founder didn't even do a technique but just entered off the line and the attacker careened into him, bounced off and crashed into the wall, with sever injuries.

As I said, exceptional skill makes it possible to handle a wider range of aggressive subjects while exercising restraint. But only if you have far more skill than they do or simply have a lot more power (as with a juvenile).

I think that the idea that you can defend yourself on the street against a serious attacker without harming him is wishful thinking. Now, one could say that knocking them out or dislocating a joint might be a great alternative to shooting someone. But the idea that we all go home happy after an encounter isn't realistic.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:31 AM   #63
cguzik
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Re: The "love" schtick

Ledyard Sensei,

A lot of this discussion seems related to a topic you have focused on quite a bit -- that of projection of intent.

Takeshita's description of aiki as a method to use empathy in order to manipulate puts us in a position where the best we can hope for is what has been called plausible deniability. But there is still intent in this case. And someone with skill can still detect this intent and use it.

It seems like what you describe feeling from the systema folks' strikes is the absence of intent. But when most people try to do that, they end up unfocused and unconnected (at least this is what happens to me at this point in my training).

In your mind, is it hiding intent, or putting your intent in a different place, or something else? Is aiki-do perhaps a continuous (iterative) process of sharpening the edge of our intent, resulting in the need to put less and less "effort" into how we "use" it?

Thank you,

Chris
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:49 PM   #64
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Re: The "love" schtick

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Larry,
First, I think the whole doing ones Aikido with a "spirit of loving protection" has more to do with the manner in which we train rather than some self defense outcome based wishful thinking.

As someone who has taught police and security defensive tactics I would say that the most difficult thing in martial arts is to restrain someone who is fighting you and not hurt them. In my opinion, it takes a great deal of skill to do so. If the opponent's skill is commensurate with yours, I do not think it is possible.

There is something along the lines of a "conservation of the quality of the energy" in a martial encounter. If someone has a really strong intention to hurt or maim you, that will be what comes back to them in the encounter. For example, there was the story about the swordsman who challenged O-Sensei. He attacked with real intent to kill or injure. The Founder didn't even do a technique but just entered off the line and the attacker careened into him, bounced off and crashed into the wall, with sever injuries.

As I said, exceptional skill makes it possible to handle a wider range of aggressive subjects while exercising restraint. But only if you have far more skill than they do or simply have a lot more power (as with a juvenile).

I think that the idea that you can defend yourself on the street against a serious attacker without harming him is wishful thinking. Now, one could say that knocking them out or dislocating a joint might be a great alternative to shooting someone. But the idea that we all go home happy after an encounter isn't realistic.
Excellent post, I agree 100%.

Quote:
Chris Guzik wrote: View Post
Ledyard Sensei,
In your mind, is it hiding intent, or putting your intent in a different place, or something else? Is aiki-do perhaps a continuous (iterative) process of sharpening the edge of our intent, resulting in the need to put less and less "effort" into how we "use" it?

Thank you,

Chris
My opinion would be that in your mind you have no intent.

Just as you are using your opponent's strength against him, you are using your opponent's intent against him also.

David
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:06 PM   #65
L. Camejo
 
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Re: The "love" schtick

Erick - good post. Good stuff to think about.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Larry,
First, I think the whole doing ones Aikido with a "spirit of loving protection" has more to do with the manner in which we train rather than some self defense outcome based wishful thinking.
Hello Sensei, does this mean that Ueshiba M.'s concept of loving protection for all living things is limited to our dojo practice or can this ideal be extended to all living things? Why not engage someone who might hurt us with an aura of "love" and "protection"? Would this not create the potential for a different outcome than the Winner/Loser - Good/Evil - Victor/Vanquished dichotomy that often acts to propagate the cycle of violence?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
As someone who has taught police and security defensive tactics I would say that the most difficult thing in martial arts is to restrain someone who is fighting you and not hurt them. In my opinion, it takes a great deal of skill to do so. If the opponent's skill is commensurate with yours, I do not think it is possible.
Agreed. The time, dedication and desire to achieve what is required to accomplish this makes it very hard to achieve by the majority of LEOs. And even when the skill level is achieved it may still be of limited use in certain situations.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think that the idea that you can defend yourself on the street against a serious attacker without harming him is wishful thinking. Now, one could say that knocking them out or dislocating a joint might be a great alternative to shooting someone. But the idea that we all go home happy after an encounter isn't realistic.
Imho what is realistic and what is possible is determined by ones personal power. Power being any skill sets, knowledge, technology, tactics, strategies, tricks etc. that place one in a position to choose or influence the outcome of a situation or circumstance instead of having the choice made for them by outside factors.

This brings into question the limitations of human power, which I've found has more to do with perception than reality. Although to some the possibility of defending oneself against a serious attacker without harming him is wishful thinking, I think this is more to do with a person's acceptance of his/her limitations rather than an absolute statement of what is humanly possible. I have been in those situations and have come out without anyone being hurt so to say it is impossible goes against my personal experienced reality. This is not to say that the outcome of mutual protection will always be realized. It depends on many factors, not the least of which is personal power in a variety of ways that may have nothing to do with technique or other aspects of training. The specific situation decides the best tools to be used. Imho the more tools you have, the better their quality and the more skilled you are in using them the better your odds at bringing about the result you want.

How does this relate to the "Love" thing? I think Ueshiba M. developed a very high and diverse level of personal power that gave him the ability to reach a place in himself where he could see the loving protection of all things as a practical reality and not a theoretical concept limited to the dojo. I think he manifested that power in his own way and was able to maintain that gradient of proficiency in his favour in most situations so he could control highly resistant opponents without harm. I say most because there is the story of Shioda who brought the marksman to the dojo whose bullet Ueshiba M. could not dodge - this revealed one of his limits at that time. The result was that he could not choose the outcome in his favour had he allowed the marksman to make his shot.

In the end my point is that Ueshiba M. trained, meditated and prayed severely and as a result he realized a level of skill, awareness and connectedness to life that most people will not achieve in their lifetime. The question for the practitioner is - do I want to embark upon this particular path and maybe experience what he did... or do I want a different experience?

They are merely different choices, but the reality of one does not make the other one impossible.

Imho.

Best
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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