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Old 02-01-2010, 10:43 AM   #26
bulevardi
Dojo: Tobu Chiku Aikikai
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Belgium
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...
An aikidoka uke knows the technique and knows what's going to happen after his attack. He will move in the direction that's supposed to move and fall how it's supposed to be etc... It's a little bit unnatural and not street-wise combat.

In training, as uke, I sometimes attack my opponent as it should, with feet standing like it should etc...
But sometimes I put my feet different, not aikido-wise, sometimes by mistake.
Than I hear my opponent say: "hey, you put your feet the wrong way".
Than I think: "in a real attack, are you going to tell your opponent first to put his feet the right way?".

Same things for attacks, in real life it's more aggressive and with kicks etc... Not of those things happen in Aikido to train on.

I understand Aikido is a human friendly sport and training is just to train the techniques friendly. So the uke will most of the time not counterwork, he'll make the moves needed in the Aikido technique.
Aikido is more based on learning techniques, learning everything behind it, userfriendly. This way, Aikido is fun, but not always really self-defending in real life situations.

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Old 02-01-2010, 03:20 PM   #27
osaya
 
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

hey OP, FYI, you might like to have a look at a very good thread about the martial ineffectiveness of aikido.

very interesting read, and succinct perspectives about the martial aspects of aikido, especially by Sensei George L. although they don't discuss your questions specifically, they might answer some of the questions you have deeper down.

all the best.
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:54 AM   #28
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
In training, as uke, I sometimes attack my opponent as it should, with feet standing like it should etc...
But sometimes I put my feet different, not aikido-wise, sometimes by mistake.
Than I hear my opponent say: "hey, you put your feet the wrong way".
Than I think: "in a real attack, are you going to tell your opponent first to put his feet the right way?".
May your friend, in that setting, change the technique he is using?

Most times, when you train a technique in the dojo, you do it in a Kata manner: Sensei is defining a very specific situation as the Attack of Uke, and then Tori is expected to respond to that situation with a specific technique variation.

From my experience, as you will progress and feel more sensitive to Uke, you may start feeling that even a minor change of Uke stance calls for a change in the technique / variation. Not to mention directions of applied force and\or footing. Once one changes then so should the other.

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Same things for attacks, in real life it's more aggressive and with kicks etc... Not of those things happen in Aikido to train on.
Depending on the dojo, "those things" may be part of the things you train on

I dislike seeing Uke ready to jump. Though at times, when demonstrating as Uke to Sensei I act the same way, and do my best to be as soft and sensitive as possible, for very selfish reasons.

Amir
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:54 AM   #29
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks
Hi Chris,

Looks like you didn't 'get' my previous reply, so I'll try again (ever the optimist )

What you think you are seeing is unlikely to be what you are actually seeing. As we learn, our eyes get peeled like the layers of an onion, so as you progress you see and understand better. I know when I watched Aikido being demonstrated by senior instructors 15 years ago, I wasn't seeing the complexities and subtleties that I see now..

Also, bear in mind that older film wasn't quite up to capturing all the action in the way that modern equipment does! Add that to the distortion you get on YouTube videos and you won't be getting the best picture

IMHO the best way to improve your Aikido is to go to class and practise. Watching stuff on YouTube won't help you much as a new student.

As for the ukes with springs on their feet that everybody else is talking about, yes that happens and no it's not good, but that is a slightly different issue than the OP brought up in the first place IMHO

Back to you Chris, if you want 'realistic' attacks, then there is no one size fits all! The type of 'realistic' attack I can expect as a 30-something year old woman is quite different to what would be expected by a 20 year old man. The good thing about Aikido is that it teaches you principles which can be applied sucessfully to all of these attacks

Ruth
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:00 PM   #30
dalen7
 
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...
I must have missed those videos, typically everything is shihonage that I see.

Seriously the whole idea of Aikido being about grabbing wrist is interesting to me, and not quite sure why that is what most people think of - maybe due to the fact that it is a starting point in Aikido. [you have to start somewhere.]

Basically we attack the following:

- wrist
- shoulders
- elbows
- head
- neck
- legs

etc.,

The attacks are for every body part, we even have kicks [to a limited extent] as part of our 2nd kyu test.

Again, we start with wrist, because fact is, if your new to Aikido it can be quite weird starting off not knowing where to put what foot, etc. [It was awkward for me, and I chalked it down to me learning in Hungarian... but then I saw our new guys and it was as awkward for them.]

Once you get the hang of it, things flow and you just apply principles to various situations. If you want, do cross-training and try to apply what you learned in Aikido there. [It can be enlightening to be sure.]

[dont forget the spiritual aspect, as well as how to really win a fight - finding out why you got in the situation to begin with is a start and if you could have avoided it.]

As for Uke ready to jump... Ill tell you, if I know what someone is going to do Im not going to procrastinate... some of these guys know what they are doing and I dont feel like having my wrist out of sorts for a couple of weeks like when I first began. [so they may not be moving for the reason you think. i.e., to make it look like it works, but because it does and quite frankly they are trying to protect their joints.]

Also, you work on speed and trying to get out of something... i.e., roll out of ikkyo to see how well they are actually applying the technique... and then do a reverse technique on them - this is always a winner.

As for defense, Aikido is about joints...

the attacks are to:

- wrist
- elbow
- shoulders
- combos of the above, etc.

Then apply that to:

- legs
- feet,
- etc.,

Again Aikido is rich and fun... its really what you make it out to be.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Thinking about it, I can see why someone would attack wrist though... If they get a hold of you there are some mighty fun techniques to use to control you... [uchi-kaiten sankyo is just pure fun]

Of course a punch to the face may be needed... point is you cant limit the possibilities - or you can, and then it becomes what you made of it.

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-04-2010 at 02:06 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 03-19-2010, 10:10 PM   #31
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I've always thought it was funny that while aikido is often criticized for "unrealistic" wrist grabs, the round beating the MMA guy dealt Yanagi Ryuken was preceded by, of all things, a wrist grab.
HAHAHAHAHA.
Yeah: i noticed that too. As soon as i saw it i said 'If this guy knew aikido, he'd have finished this guy right then: how dare they call him an aikido master'.

Poor old aiki-master; beating up an old man can't have made the other guy feel very good either. At least his students can stop wasting their time with him now though.
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Old 03-20-2010, 06:28 AM   #32
wideawakedreamer
 
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Location: Davao City
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post

As for Uke ready to jump... Ill tell you, if I know what someone is going to do Im not going to procrastinate... some of these guys know what they are doing and I dont feel like having my wrist out of sorts for a couple of weeks like when I first began. [so they may not be moving for the reason you think. i.e., to make it look like it works, but because it does and quite frankly they are trying to protect their joints.]
When I'm uke I try not to make it too easy for nage to throw me. That being said, there are some sempai who can do a technique so well that I just have to be ready to fall/tap out/or yell. Or all three.

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Old 03-20-2010, 07:30 AM   #33
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

If an uke is taking ukemi, then some degree of collusion is taking place. This can be appropriate as a learning tool for a nage trying to learn techniques. A throwing technique done properly is one in which the uke has no choice as to taking ukemi; it simply happens.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-20-2010, 01:41 PM   #34
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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England
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Re: Confused... Uke Ready to Jump?

I was taught a firm lesson by TK Chiba Sensei in the late 1960s, we did a demonstration on Granada TV, knowing how important this TV appearance was for Aikido, the first technique I did what I later realized was a `BIG` ukemi..........Chiba Sensei snarled in my ear " Mr Ewiss, I don't need your help anymore !! ", he then proceeded to hammer me around the mat totally without my cooperation.
www.british-aikido.com
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