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Old 03-16-2010, 08:58 PM   #1
gdandscompserv
 
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Repeating the same old mistakes

Interesting that the modern aikido community seems to have repeated history. Wasn't there a similar split at hombu as what has occurred here on aikiweb? Didn't that split come about as a result of some "heretics" daring to discuss and teach internal skills? Internal vs external form. Non-Aikido Martial Traditions and Aikido Traditions. We really don't change much do we.
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Old 03-16-2010, 09:07 PM   #2
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

Can't say that I really know what you're talking about, but my guess is that you "aint' seen nothen' yet".

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Old 03-16-2010, 10:17 PM   #3
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

Except Tohei had been part of the establishment! You'd think it would be less likely that he be ostracized.

At any rate-- regarding modern aikido, you could see it as the opposite of a split. Something is growing, not getting taken away.
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:39 PM   #4
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Interesting that the modern aikido community seems to have repeated history. Wasn't there a similar split at hombu as what has occurred here on aikiweb? Didn't that split come about as a result of some "heretics" daring to discuss and teach internal skills? Internal vs external form. Non-Aikido Martial Traditions and Aikido Traditions. We really don't change much do we.
ricky, i want to split with you, because we have "Irreconcilable Differences". my lawyer will discuss with you on dividing up the weapon rack.
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:59 PM   #5
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

I always find it interesting that we can always connect the dots in such a way to support the perspective we want.

Was the split over internal versus external, or the tradition of passing one's work on within the family? Curious. I wasn't there. I have heard both.

IMHO, some have come further than others. Some are trying to maintain the split and some are bridging it. So yes, you might say we are repeating history.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:22 PM   #6
DH
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

If you are discussing IP/Aiki Ricky, than I would consider it a resounding success! I would NEVER count the internet as any indicator of approval. Personally, I have seen a 100% acceptance rate-across the board, once people actually feel it. Now with people scrambling for repeat seminars or coming here to train. And this is from Shodan to Shihan, in Aikido on to Daito ryu itself and now to include the ICMA as well, and that's just me. What about others?

Discount the internet,Bud. Here ten thousand words of debate end with one...."Duh." Or "WTF, how did you do that?" in person.
And what happens next? Friendships, laughs and and an ever building community within a community. Count it all good.

If you were looking for universal acceptance than let history be your guide. There is a very good reason why there are so few masters of the arts. Just let it be so. I spent a good hour on the phone today with yet another Aikido Shihan who is stunned after reading and then having felt and trained this, and what it is already doing to his Aikido.
"Why didn't they teach us? After we discussed THAT for a while he said "To tell you the truth, I don't think they even know this to this depth. There is no way my teacher (8th dan) could even handle this!"
To which I said "Who cares! Lets focus on you, and then your students and then take it back from the Japanese."

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I see this as a new start for many and the dawing of a new Aikido with true aiki. Aiki, is the defining and dividing line and always has been. Yet people will forever be caught up in 'technique" as the source.

As the Aikijujutsu master in the Fighting art of Japan said in the 20's. "Few pursue it, and fewer still, Master it."
Let it be so. Enjoy it! I do.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-17-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:01 AM   #7
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you are discussing IP/Aiki Ricky, than I would consider it a resounding success! I would NEVER count the internet as any indicator of approval. Personally, I have seen a 100% acceptance rate-across the board, once people actually feel it.
I was talking with someone the other day about threads here on Aikiweb. He reads but doesn't post very often. He said, why doesn't someone ask where the person is who met Dan and walked away going, "That stuff is crap"?

Most of the people I met walked away saying, that's Ueshiba's aiki. That's what I've been looking for all these years. Why couldn't I have started training this when I was 16? This is what's missing in aikido today. Etc, etc, etc.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Discount the internet,Bud. Here ten thousand words of debate end with one...."Duh." Or "WTF, how did you do that?" in person.
And what happens next? Friendships, laughs and and an ever building community within a community. Count it all good.
Yep.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I see this as a new start for many and the dawing of a new Aikido with true aiki. Aiki, is the defining and dividing line and always has been. Yet people will forever be caught up in 'technique" as the source.
Cheers
Dan
The more I look at "techniques" in aikido, the more I see them not as some martial maneuver to stop an attacker in "real" situations, not even as any kind of jujutsu, but as a training syllabus to work all the various and different aspects of "aiki": spirals, aiki age, aiki sage, asagao, mirror, intent, pivoting of the body around the spine, etc, etc, etc.

In that view, you could never get "aiki" from just mimicking techniques. You'd never get "aiki" from taking ukemi. The best you could ever hope for was to get phenomenal timing, a relaxed but coordinated body, and some sensitivity. But, as some of us have experienced, that all falls apart as soon as one comes into contact with someone who has actual "aiki".

We're discovering what Ueshiba had, learning what Ueshiba learned, and finding out that modern aikido lacks the secret that made Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc great. Aiki.

We aren't repeating the same old mistakes at all. We're correcting the mistakes of the past.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:08 AM   #8
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I see this as a new start for many and the dawing of a new Aikido with true aiki. Aiki, is the defining and dividing line and always has been. Yet people will forever be caught up in 'technique" as the source. As the Aikijujutsu master in the Fighting art of Japan said in the 20's. "Few pursue it, and fewer still, Master it."
Let it be so. Enjoy it!
Total agreement. Looking forward to sharing space and time.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:10 AM   #9
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The more I look at "techniques" in aikido, the more I see them not as some martial maneuver to stop an attacker in "real" situations, not even as any kind of jujutsu, but as a training syllabus to work all the various and different aspects of "aiki": spirals, aiki age, aiki sage, asagao, mirror, intent, pivoting of the body around the spine, etc, etc, etc.

In that view, you could never get "aiki" from just mimicking techniques. You'd never get "aiki" from taking ukemi. The best you could ever hope for was to get phenomenal timing, a relaxed but coordinated body, and some sensitivity. But, as some of us have experienced, that all falls apart as soon as one comes into contact with someone who has actual "aiki".

We're discovering what Ueshiba had, learning what Ueshiba learned, and finding out that modern aikido lacks the secret that made Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc great. Aiki.

We aren't repeating the same old mistakes at all. We're correcting the mistakes of the past.
Hi Mark,

I've only been at this a few months and I agree completely about my view of the techniques changing significantly, though I still see them as effective martial movements. Especially once you have some aiki/IS to put into them. Ueshiba was still doing techniques long after he gained some skills and he was still doing them when he earned the bulk of his reputation, albeit infused with aiki. While the eventually goal might be to have enough aiki/IS that techniques just happen, it seems that most everyone, at some point, used techniques as a frame of reference for applying those skills in a martial context.

I also agree about the mimicking of techniques, but on the subject of taking ukemi. If the techniques provide a syllabus for working on the various aspects of aiki, wouldn't taking ukemi provide the same benefit as the paired exercises and drills present in most of the IS methods? Granted you can't just be blindly taking ukemi. You'd have to be working with like minded people, but wouldn't it give you a rather large variety of scenarios from which to condition your body? Nage is trying to use aiki to move uke, while uke is trying to use aiki to not be moved. You would also want/need someone there, or at least come along periodically, to correct, tune and test you further as well. Eventually, once you have something, you start taking it outside that comfort zone and testing it further, but couldn't that be perfectly effective as a training method? At least in the partnered/paired training aspect.

This is pretty much how I view my dojo time these days. I spend a good bit of time each week at home doing things alone, but when I'm in the dojo it gives me an opportunity to apply and test what little bit of conditioning I might have now in a situation where I can effectively guage the results. Granted there is a heck of a lot more failure now than success, but those little moments of success give me feedback that what I'm doing is benefiting me. It also drives me to keep at it. I can't help but smile when I feel that.. difference. It's usually followed by a "why isn't this working" from the other person or them asking me "what did you do" when they see me grinning. I usually just say "oh i'm just messing around" and just continue on. I look forward to the day that I actually know enough and have enough that I can honestly answer those questions and maybe get them interested in it the same way that I am now.

Last edited by chillzATL : 03-19-2010 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:24 AM   #10
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Granted you can't just be blindly taking ukemi.
My understanding of ukemi is constantly evolving and today is not even comparable to even last year. I have not idea what 'blindly' means ...

For me, at this point in my understanding, ukemi is the whole point of aikido and one must constantly 'monitor' and find the opening or weak points in technique to enable application of reversals - totally active and engaged.

How did Osensei learn from Takeda - as uke or as tori? Something to contemplate. Being able to find openings in others is the beginning to finding openings in oneself and then starting the work on closing them. Seem to me that ukemi is an excellent research tool in this regard.

If we refuse to consider new ways of looking at things then we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes ad infinitum.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:50 AM   #11
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

I also agree about the mimicking of techniques, but on the subject of taking ukemi. If the techniques provide a syllabus for working on the various aspects of aiki, wouldn't taking ukemi provide the same benefit as the paired exercises and drills present in most of the IS methods? Granted you can't just be blindly taking ukemi. You'd have to be working with like minded people, but wouldn't it give you a rather large variety of scenarios from which to condition your body? Nage is trying to use aiki to move uke, while uke is trying to use aiki to not be moved. You would also want/need someone there, or at least come along periodically, to correct, tune and test you further as well. Eventually, once you have something, you start taking it outside that comfort zone and testing it further, but couldn't that be perfectly effective as a training method? At least in the partnered/paired training aspect.
Hi Jason,

I guess I should explain that in this thread, I'm using "ukemi" as a standard, modern aikido model. In other words, mostly learning how to roll and fall and be "sensitive" to openings. Ukemi in this regards is completely useless to learning aiki.

Ukemi as a model for changing or receiving energy, though, is a different topic. That, to me, is part of aiki. But that kind of ukemi is a complete and unrelated concept to the modern aikido concept.

So, yeah, in regards to your para quoted above, yes, we will try to test aiki to aiki ... when we actually can get aiki working. Right now I'm still struggling with building an internal structure to handle aiki.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:54 AM   #12
MM
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My understanding of ukemi is constantly evolving and today is not even comparable to even last year. I have not idea what 'blindly' means ...

For me, at this point in my understanding, ukemi is the whole point of aikido and one must constantly 'monitor' and find the opening or weak points in technique to enable application of reversals - totally active and engaged.

How did Osensei learn from Takeda - as uke or as tori? Something to contemplate. Being able to find openings in others is the beginning to finding openings in oneself and then starting the work on closing them. Seem to me that ukemi is an excellent research tool in this regard.

If we refuse to consider new ways of looking at things then we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes ad infinitum.
So, after 1.2 million aikido people training "ukemi" as you've described it for over 40 years, where are the people that rival Shioda or Tomiki's abilities, let alone Ueshiba? I think your quote, that I put in bold, says it all.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:19 PM   #13
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Re: Repeating the same old mistakes

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So, after 1.2 million aikido people training "ukemi" as you've described it for over 40 years, where are the people that rival Shioda or Tomiki's abilities, let alone Ueshiba? I think your quote, that I put in bold, says it all.
/QUOTE]

Interesting ... It is only in the last 2-3 years that the ukemi I described entered my awareness. That means for 7 years nobody mentioned it to me (I'm pretty mainstream) so I'd have to say maybe some of those 1.2 million are not doing ukemi the way I mean. Besides, I believe it is only the opening of a gateway-primarily to developing the ability to locate and identify openings. I'm sure you will agree there is way more to aiki/IP/IS/IT than just that component. Baby steps ...

Can't very well work on how to close or exploit openings if one does not know how to find one! How about the ability to create an opening that draws someone into it? Actually pretty high level stuff (from my perspective).

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I think your quote, that I put in bold, says it all.
Easy to say but hard to put into action. At least we can try. I'm an old dog looking to learn some new tricks hoping for a tasty Scooby snack along the way (goes good with that koolaid).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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