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Old 01-04-2010, 10:01 AM   #1
Melchizedek
 
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OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

speaking of ranks and the authority to teach Aikido

Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?

and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?

are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?

"Love and devotion" (pls. comment)

(*dully recognize Aikidokas Phil. Aikikai*)

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-04-2010 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:41 AM   #2
Melchizedek
 
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Re: non-Japanese cannot become shihan anymore?

speaking of ranks and the authority to teach Aikido

Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?

and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?

are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?

"Love and devotion"

(*dully recognize Aikidokas Philippine Aikikai*)

they remove my post Y? pls. comment if you want to remove it at least, please let me know! & remove all my post in this web.

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-04-2010 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:54 AM   #3
Shadowfax
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Why does aikido need to be defended?
Quote:
Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?
Would not the very act of engaging in a challenge to other MAs be completely in opposition to what aikido is? So in doing so wouldn't that make us a hypocrite?
Quote:
and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?
No I can't. But I'm not sure it really needs defending. If someone comes into the dojo wanting to be shown the effectiveness of aikido I am sure sensei would be happy to demonstrate.
Quote:
are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?
Risking my life seems a bit pointless. I mean really... what would dying for aikido actually achieve? Better to live for aikido. If I am dead I can't help others to learn... (once I know enough to actually be a teacher that is).

I really don't get why it must be proven. Either one believes aikido works or one does not. What is, for one person, the perfect MA might not be right for someone else. If someone wants to tell my why their MA is better than aikido I'll just smile and nod and let them believe it. It won't cost me anything to allow them to be right.

So much conflict... just let it go and train.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 01-04-2010 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:16 PM   #4
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Would not the very act of engaging in a challenge to other MAs be completely in opposition to what aikido is? So in doing so wouldn't that make us a hypocrite?
Aikido stands where it is now thanks to all the challenges Morihei Ueshiba did not step away from or were engaged by himself.

And let us not forget the shihans that introduced aikido to the world. If I am not mistaken, they were challenged a lot as well.

Shall we call them all hypocrites?
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:24 PM   #5
Melchizedek
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Why does aikido need to be defended?

Quote:
Would not the very act of engaging in a challenge to other MAs be completely in opposition to what aikido is? So in doing so wouldn't that make us a hypocrite?
I dont agree


Quote:
No I can't. But I'm not sure it really needs defending. If someone comes into the dojo wanting to be shown the effectiveness of aikido I am sure sensei would be happy to demonstrate.

Risking my life seems a bit pointless. I mean really... what would dying for aikido actually achieve? Better to live for aikido. If I am dead I can't help others to learn... (once I know enough to actually be a teacher that is).

I really don't get why it must be proven. Either one believes aikido works or one does not. What is, for one person, the perfect MA might not be right for someone else. If someone wants to tell my why their MA is better than aikido I'll just smile and nod and let them believe it. It won't cost me anything to allow them to be right.

So much conflict... just let it go and train.
hi Cherie,

I appreciate your response and i agree from what you`ve said
and the reason why i open this is that the inevitable chances that we have here in our Dojo is frequently ongoing and one of my reasons to draw new practitioners and my response to Mister Carsten as well.

Quote:
Re: non-Japanese cannot become shihan anymore?

Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
Interesting!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Why?

And what has this to do with aikido?

Carsten

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-04-2010 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:36 PM   #6
Shadowfax
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
Aikido stands where it is now thanks to all the challenges Morihei Ueshiba did not step away from or were engaged by himself.

And let us not forget the shihans that introduced aikido to the world. If I am not mistaken, they were challenged a lot as well.

Shall we call them all hypocrites?
You misunderstand me. there is a difference between being challenged and being the challenger. Being attacked and being the attacker. It is one thing to deal with an attack that is initiated towards us. But isn't the ultimate goal to blend with the attacker and seek a peaceful outcome? If your attacker wants the hand give him the hand.....right?

I read the OP as asking whether it would be right to be the one issuing the challenge... becoming the attacker. I stand by what I said. It seems to me that to do that is very un-aikido.

I'm very new to aikido and have much to learn. If you believe I am wrong please show me why.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:20 PM   #7
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

The answer is here.

Whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaaaa....
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:57 PM   #8
Dan Rubin
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Araneta

I'm not sure that the following thread is directly responsive to your post, but you might find it interesting.

Feelings on "open mat" policy
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=15980&page=2
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Old 01-04-2010, 05:32 PM   #9
Melchizedek
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Araneta

I'm not sure that the following thread is directly responsive to your post, but you might find it interesting.

Feelings on "open mat" policy
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=15980&page=2
exactly were thoughts is. due to our young people that where so amazed by Manny Pacman Boxing fame and UFC and MMA issues,and the old folks place wager and ask fighters to test various Discipline in our City 22,401 households, (Santiago City PI)

from what I have observed about our Dojo is becoming a center of attraction or becoming more like an arena. thou its a respectful challenge there is a wager involved but the good benefits are more practitioners is being drawn to learn Aikido.

my worries about the wagers is that I banned wager inside the Dojo but outside wagers is being placed and people think that they can buy Martial Arts Just like that.., and another couple of new comers asking that they'll pay me for advance lessons like a shortcuts.

(I say): people who looks for shortcuts like that should know their places and integrate into normal society.

Thank you for posting Mister Dan Rubin that really makes a difference.

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-04-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:10 PM   #10
eyrie
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?
You mean walk into someone else's martial art studio, in full aikido regalia, and ask for a lesson?

Quote:
and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?
Oh, you mean when someone walks into your dojo and asks for a lesson?


Ignatius
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:46 PM   #11
Mannix Moya
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
speaking of ranks and the authority to teach Aikido

Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?

and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?

are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?

"Love and devotion" (pls. comment)

(*dully recognize Aikidokas Phil. Aikikai*)
If the intention of the challenger is to test the sensei, I think the sensei must oblige, "walk the talk"

risking our lives for Aikido or for any martial art doesn't make sense.

On the side, would you know how Omar Camar responded to challenges during the dojo storming days? Maybe you can start a thread about it
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:19 AM   #12
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

My 2 cents

yeah, perfectly ok to challenge and rise to the challenge of other arts, we pactice a maritla art after all, challening other arts can really let you see how good your techniques is especailly when, the other person doesn't know the uke side of the arrangement, and won't allow you to do a technique

however, you must keep in mind the spirit in which you offer and/or accept these challenges. if you go in as a meat head looking to throw down then maybe you need some time to look at yourself. and if such a person enters your dojo you haev a choice, show him the door or show him the floor
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:03 AM   #13
Peter Chenier
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Only an insane idiot walks into a dojo alone and drops a challenge. Real martial arts are not sport. Its not a game. Coming into a real dojo like that is going to result in serious injury at the very least. Its a suicide run. It's not whether or not your instructor accepts the challenge, there could be up to 30 other people that may have serious objections about the individual being so offensive. Those 30 people might even express their displeasure all at the same time if you get my meaning .
Sorry if I sound harsh

Cheers
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:20 AM   #14
Melchizedek
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Hi Mister Moya,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mannix Moya wrote: View Post
If the intention of the challenger is to test the sensei, I think the sensei must oblige, "walk the talk"
MJAA> Im the chief trainor here in Santiago I open my Dojo w/o the knowledge of our Sensei Camar., so my realia is this on going respectful Challenge or an Open mat Policy(from a different tread), yes we inherit the discipline from Japanese Samurai's and Japanese Culture roughly 2000 years ago from Daito Minamoto no Yosimitsu progenitor of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu and the Takeda clan. and Takeda Sukako Sensie and our own O'Sensie Morihei Ueshiba and K Tohie Sensie and Benjamin Galarape Sensie and Sensie Omar Camar. my respect to them all that im now a synthesis.., I don't what to put the emblem of Aikido to same. recognized or not by Internation HQ of Aikido.

Quote:
risking our lives for Aikido or for any martial art doesn't make sense
.
even if it means dying my friend.

Quote:
On the side, would you know how Omar Camar responded to challenges during the dojo storming days? Maybe you can start a thread about it
when Sensie Camar is at that stage on probing the Art of Aikido is not a joke to our Country... as His Student.... I should..., till it agitate.

___________________________________________________

My 2 cents

yeah, perfectly ok to challenge and rise to the challenge of other arts, we pactice a maritla art after all, challening other arts can really let you see how good your techniques is especailly when, the other person doesn't know the uke side of the arrangement, and won't allow you to do a technique
Quote:
however, you must keep in mind the spirit in which you offer and/or accept these challenges. if you go in as a meat head looking to throw down then maybe you need some time to look at yourself. and if such a person enters your dojo you haev a choice, show him the door or show him the floor
@ Mister Andrew Macdonald
thank you Sir I get more from it deeply!

_______________________________________________

Only an insane idiot walks into a dojo alone and drops a challenge. Real martial arts are not sport. Its not a game. Coming into a real dojo like that is going to result in serious injury at the very least. Its a suicide run. It's not whether or not your instructor accepts the challenge, there could be up to 30 other people that may have serious objections about the individual being so offensive. Those 30 people might even express their displeasure all at the same time if you get my meaning .
Sorry if I sound harsh

Cheers
@ Mister Peter Chenier
No! your not Harsh your just kind enough to give your point of view
I think so but not an idiot insane yes
as far as so good Sir! but I always impost in a gentler manner at all times
Chirs!

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-05-2010 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:14 AM   #15
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
... my response to Mister Carsten as well.
You posted a clip which has no connections to aikido or daito ryu as far as I know. Thats what I just pointed out.
So I don't understand, why you find this clip interesting and what it has to do wiht aikido.
I don't see any connection from this clip to your question.

at topic:

We don't have challenges, but we often train together with pracitioners of other martial arts. That is very interesting and has made aikido much more "attractive" in our area.

Carsten
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:49 AM   #16
Melchizedek
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
You posted a clip which has no connections to aikido or daito ryu as far as I know. Thats what I just pointed out.
So I don't understand, why you find this clip interesting and what it has to do wiht aikido.
I don't see any connection from this clip to your question.
Pastor Carsten,

from my point of view Every martial Artist must be ready or to expect the unexpected. and if we are high ranking Martial Artist we are Obligated
to carry the weigh upon our shoulders. and our rank its not just for a decoration, b'coz we earn them right?

what if? you are in the same shoes of Ryukerin what will you do?
*pls. dont get me wrong this is just for the sake of learning*

Last edited by Melchizedek : 01-05-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:15 AM   #17
dalen7
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Heres my take on it:

What is it you think Aikido does and what is it for?
I mean what situations is it best suited for?

Do you know, do you have experience? Have you tested the other waters yourself? [one of the requirements for my 2nd kyu test will be to have, at minimum, observed another martial art.]

Why is this?

Things are part of a bigger picture, as it were.
Aikido came from jui-jitusu and has even changed itself over the years from that of what the founder originally practiced.

In my opinion there is yin-yang and Aikido and MMA would be a good example of that.

Each has their place, and when and why they are effective.
Knowing this is key to when someone comes up and is curious as to if your art works... By working, what does that mean and how does that apply?

As for those that say Aikido is deadly... not sure that is what your implying... it could be. But as discussed in other forums, the way some people attack your more than likely to be missed if you didnt move.

I will say straight up that there is nothing wrong with practicing Aikido in a way that is not as live, or rather more 'artistic' than that of MMA. It has a legit value and something that should be strived for which is the harmony.

Many times people come in and they do want to overlook the aspect of harmony and its role. Little do they know that as they age that perhaps they will want to find alternatives to pain in their training. And yet someone may argue that how does this help them on the street, which means they missed the whole point.

In a real situation its about not getting in the fight.
{Geez, you would thought everyone watched karate kid by now!}
But this is not only a nice philosophical buzz... its the truth.

My point is that fighting should not occur unless its a mutual decision, and that much of what we think is unavoidable is avoidable if we learn more about who we are and how what we do gets us into some of the messes it does.

Again, this comes with time and experience.
Though in this world it could be that a younger generation wont need the years of suffering that we obviously have needed with wars, etc. to learn this.

So step into my dojo, and Ill give you options.
You want to box... get some gloves. You want to learn some principles that you can take with you in various aspects of life, then we can get into Aikido.

Part of that is training with people in a close enviroment that you would otherwise not want to train with. Many times we train with one partner who we feel comfortable with. That wont train you for anything, let alone for the street as many so believe they are prepping for.

Get to know yourself by working with different energies around you, and you will be amazed at how fast you pick things up...

Peace

dAlen

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Old 01-06-2010, 09:52 AM   #18
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
speaking of ranks and the authority to teach Aikido

Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?

and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?

are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?

"Love and devotion" (pls. comment)

(*dully recognize Aikidokas Phil. Aikikai*)
Just remember what Funakoshi said... If it's not important enough for one of you to die for, then you shouldn't be fighting.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:54 AM   #19
Mannix Moya
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Just remember what Funakoshi said... If it's not important enough for one of you to die for, then you shouldn't be fighting.
i like this
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:18 PM   #20
jonreading
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
speaking of ranks and the authority to teach Aikido

Is it right to engage on a challenge to other Martial Atrs disciplines?

and can you? (generally speaking) defend the name of Aikido when a walk in challenger comes in your Dojo when least time expected?

are you ready to risk your life for the love of the ART?
I believe it is acceptable to engage another martial artist who challenges your competence as a martial artist. I think you create a positive environement in which to test each other's skill, and you enjoy the opportunity to learn about yourself. Or, you decline the challenge and cite your experience is not sufficient to engage in a challenge. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I can't beat you, you are better than I." You never know, maybe that person works down to your level and you still have a great training experience.

Aikido does not need defense. If someone challenges aikido, they can write hombu dojo and express their concerns for the quality of the art. It is inappropriate to challenge a system because you have no personal control over that system, only your skill in learning and using that system.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:50 PM   #21
Melchizedek
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

@ Mr. Jon Reading,

my philosophy is that, Noting happens to anyone that s/he is not fitted by nature to bear

and also one of the teaching of O Sensei

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei

Quote:
Aikido does not need defense. If someone challenges aikido, they can write hombu dojo and express their concerns for the quality of the art. It is inappropriate to challenge a system because you have no personal control over that system, only your skill in learning and using that system.
this is quite redeeming Sir thank you!
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:44 PM   #22
Russ Q
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Just remember what Funakoshi said... If it's not important enough for one of you to die for, then you shouldn't be fighting.
Thank you sensei!
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Old 01-06-2010, 05:46 PM   #23
Janet Rosen
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Araneta Melchizedek wrote: View Post
my philosophy is that, Noting happens to anyone that s/he is not fitted by nature to bear
Interesting. So if a 10 ton truck jumps off the curb and runs into me, I'm fitted by nature to bear this - whether I live or not?

Just checking.

(I think I understand what you mean to say: that most of life difficulties are, in fact, liveable, even if they seem emotionally or physically insupportible at the time. It was the way you said it....)

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 01-06-2010 at 05:48 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 01-06-2010, 06:05 PM   #24
David Board
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Interesting. So if a 10 ton truck jumps off the curb and runs into me, I'm fitted by nature to bear this - whether I live or not?

Just checking.

(I think I understand what you mean to say: that most of life difficulties are, in fact, liveable, even if they seem emotionally or physically insupportible at the time. It was the way you said it....)
If only you had remembered ten-ton tenkan...

Sorry.
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:10 PM   #25
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: OK to Challenge Other Arts / Defend the Name of Aikido?

Times have changed from when O'Sensei and others took on challengers. Defending the honor of anything in this day and age can be a litigous nightmare. Defending yourself is another story.

Lyle Laizure
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