Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-23-2009, 10:20 PM   #1
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
O' sensei.....Probably because he was a Shin Tao priest..
???

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 11:54 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
???
I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-23-2009 at 11:57 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 01:35 PM   #3
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
???
As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D

Last edited by RED : 12-24-2009 at 01:37 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 02:00 PM   #4
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.
I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Last edited by RED : 12-24-2009 at 02:03 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 03:10 PM   #5
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D
I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 04:51 PM   #6
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.
I actually don't know if he was really a priest or not. All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 06:20 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 07:01 PM   #8
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 08:24 PM   #9
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Music Offensive

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron
Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.

Back on point, "A Life in Aikido" is a book written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba is a book that talks a little about O'Sensei's life. In it he tells a lot of antidotes about how O'Sensei saw ghosts, tengu, and such... I would say that makes him a mystic. He also tells about how one Moriteru Ueshiba became involved with the Omoto-kyo sect of Shinto. He was a personal acquaintance of Oinsaburo Deguchi, the leader of the Omoto-kyo sect at the time. During this time Moriteru Ueshiba is said to have a student by the name of Naohi Deguchi, who became the third leader of this sect, as well as the majority of the Omoto staff at that time. He taught priest, the majority of the com unity (in a religious commune mind you), and was a noted personal confidant of the leader of the movement (a priest himself). I would say that gives strong evidence that he ether was a priest or was at least sound enough in Shinto doctrine to entrust future generations of priests. Read the book (it is pretty good), if anyone is making it up, it is Kisshomaru Ueshiba.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 10:56 PM   #10
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 12:24 PM   #11
Kent Enfield
 
Kent Enfield's Avatar
Location: Oregon, USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 224
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did)
Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.
Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.

Kentokuseisei
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 12:47 PM   #12
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Please watch the tone of your postings, folks.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 03:37 PM   #13
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?
You are correct, I made a typo. In my previous post, Moriteru Ueshiba is should be replaced with Ueshiba Morihei. The facts are still the same. Kisshomaru Ueshiba is also Ueshiba Morihei's youngest son, so it was an interesting perspective on his life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 03:44 PM   #14
Russ Q
Dojo: Shohei Juku Aikido Gibsons
Location: Gibsons BC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 193
Canada
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Hi all,

It's as if Ron did irimi but no tenkan.....:-)

Merry Christmas,

Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 03:57 PM   #15
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

I've gone back through my library and can't find a single reference that suggests that Ueshiba Morihei was a Shinto priest. I'm very confident that he was a member of the Omoto sect of Shintoism and that he was close to Deguchi Onisaburo. The record is clear that he accompanied Deguchi to Mongolia on the ill-fated expedition. The record seems equally clear that he avoided the suppression of the sect through his powerful military and civil patrons who supported his budo teaching.

I suppose he could have been called a mystic as well since he claimed all sorts of extraordinary events such as the famed "golden light" story. Those may have happened (who am I to say?), he may have BELIEVED they happened, and he may well have made the whole thing up to enhance his reputation.

For me, the bottom line is that Ueshiba O Sensei was a very complex character, a strongly religious follower of Omoto, and that there is no evidence presented that he was a priest of any denomination. He certainly practiced the kotodama and lead others in the practice, but that doesn't translate to priesthood either. I suggest that he was a layman, much like some christian religions currently have laymen serving as "deacons" and other titles.

The fact that he taught Omoto followers his martial art isn't persuasive evidence of priesthood either. At times they were living in a communal style and the residents surely gave of their talents to the group. He taught martial arts, others did construction and so on.

As for the white hakama, I've seen many photographs of individuals wearing white hakama who clearly weren't priests - the most recent person I've seen in the white hakama was Ellis Amdur Sensei at the Aiki Expo. I won't say that Amdur Sensei is or isn't a Shinto priest, but some of his writings strongly discuss his faith.

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 04:01 PM   #16
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.
I don't appreciate the tone of your post.
If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.
Instead you are being confrontational in a way that's coming across like you intend to incite an argument.
I can explain my sources to you if you actually want a conversation about the issue? But if your intent in posting was simply to incite an argument I'm really not game.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 04:10 PM   #17
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.
I'm not entirely sure if he was or was not as well at this point. I've always assumed he was due to things said by my teachers and one Shihan.
I've found a lot of things that referred to this movement as a 'cult' at first. So I'm wondering if the terms were loser back then for what constituted priesthood and what did not. A lot is unsubstantial right now for me. I'm looking stuff up.
I'm once again, getting all my info from: "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba

Last edited by RED : 12-25-2009 at 04:21 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 04:15 PM   #18
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out."
In the "Please help with a small bit of history" thread, there is a comment that the Omoto Kyo sect requires all of its members to go through training of a priest (his involvement was 10 years ago so his information might be dated). This training lasted a week, and Steven Segal has claimed to be a shinto priest before, so it isn't that outrageous considering O'Sensei had a shinto shrine in every dojo he owned since his involvement in the Omoto Kyo sect.

I am personally a bit of a history buff, so any information you have on the subject would be appreciated. I am basing most of my information on O'Sensei's religious background on "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, "Essence of Aikido" by Ueshiba, Morihei, and "Phylosophy of Aikido" by John Stevens. What evidence do you have to support he was not?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 05:58 PM   #19
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 809
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Ueshiba - mystic, no doubt. Devotee and worshiper at shrines - no doubt. Shinto priest. NO.

White hakama are worn by many kendoka and other koryu folks.
Here's one of jodo:
And pre-war, more than a few aikidoka wore white hakama. After the war, it was relegated to Ueshiba and to 9th - 10th dan. Here's Iwata Hajime.
Here's Hikitsuchi, Here's Hikitsuchi and Ueshiba,
I'm told that in this picture Ueshiba told Hikitsuchi that it was an "unholy day" - sort of like "casual Fridays at certain banks. So they dressed down to go bar hopping and get ripped on cheap shochu (O.K., I made that up).

I've attached a picture from a demo in St. Louis. From L-R, there's Will Schutt, Diane Skoss, Meik Skoss, Phil Relnick, Larry Bieri, Dave Lowry, moi, and my student, Steve Bowman. (Why are all those people so little? Well, that's another discussion, I suppose).
Phil Relnick had the microphone answering questions, and someone asked the significance of the different hakama and keikko-gi and Phil graciously and unwisely handed the mic to me. I replied, "Well, the colors of the clothes are symbolize of one's moral intent and attainment. You see these people on my right, wearing all dark clothes, blue or black. They have embraced evil. I, wearing white, have embraced good. My student Steve, here, on my left, just can make up his mind yet which way he wants to go.
Merry Xmas
Ellis Amdur
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Group #2.jpg
Views:	159
Size:	15.3 KB
ID:	707  

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-25-2009 at 06:04 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 06:11 PM   #20
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Hi Maggie, Ryan,

If I may step in for a moment...

It seems as though you have stirred up a veritable hornets nest with your thoughts that Morihei Ueshiba was a Shinto priest.

I think that the disbelief that you are encountering comes from the research undertaken by many, including those in this thread, that does not support your thoughts. Many people here have read the same books that you have, (some in its original Japanese language -- "Aikido Ichiro" and "Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei Den" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba) and have walked away not having found what you are claiming.

I'm sure that should you produce a substantive piece of evidence that points to Morihei Ueshiba's having been a Shinto priest, people would be quite interested, and most likely, happy to be proven wrong. But, until then, as what you are asserting is out of the norm, the burden of proof lies with you in pointing us towards the evidence (e.g. a quote and the page number from a book) that supports your assertion.

(As far as the other evidence cited of Morihei Ueshiba having worn a white hakama, having been called a mystic, and having had a Shinto shrine in all of his dojo, I would consider all of these to be circumstantial evidence -- many folks who are not Shinto priests wear white hakama, being called a "mystic" does not confer that person with priesthood necessarily, and the presence of a Shinto "shrine" in a dojo does not its dojocho into a Shinto priest make. I believe this is what many here in this thread are objecting to.)

Best,

-- Jun

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 06:41 PM   #21
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Quote:
PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...
Oh no Jun, you, of all people, have definately chosen the light. You still tolerate old sour pusses like me, so it must be true!

Quote:
Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.
Dude, if I want to call someone a liar, I know how to type the word. If at some point I decide to use the word, no one will have to wonder.

Best, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and to all, a Good Night.
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 07:03 PM   #22
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

I actually only said he was in passing, off of what I've read and heard seniors suggest.
I'm not exactly sure why it stirs so much up. It was never any claim I defended passionately.
I feel a bit on egg shells.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 07:06 PM   #23
Kent Enfield
 
Kent Enfield's Avatar
Location: Oregon, USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 224
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.
That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.

Kentokuseisei
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 07:13 PM   #24
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Hi Maggie, I'm just an old curmugeon. I probably didn't even spell that correctly. Just feel free to ignore me when I get cranky, and please don't take it personally.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 07:13 PM   #25
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Music While Training - Offensive?

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.
I had no hypothesis. That's what I've been saying.

MM
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu Mike Sigman Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 242 02-20-2009 07:54 PM
Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad aikido_fudoshin General 126 02-04-2009 05:54 PM
Seminar with Students of Chiba Sensei Ron Tisdale Seminars 0 01-21-2004 09:47 AM
Seminar/Event: Saito Sensei Seminar Update AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-17-2001 01:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:40 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate