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Old 04-11-2002, 09:43 AM   #1
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Bunkai/finishing techniques

How many of your have classes teach the Bunkai/ finishing technique of different Aikido techniques? How does your style of Aikido teach them.

I know, I was taught to find five or more different finishing moves in Jujitsu/Karate, but sometimes it is just me and my teacher who understand this concept? Sometimes it is just enough to get to a finishing technique with the beginners and those who haven't cross trained? So, we only do them when the level of experience in the class can get to this point understanding safety with hurting concerns.

Does your teacher have one or more classes that not only show pins and submissions, but strikes to finish opponents?

We don't get there but once a week or less.
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Old 04-11-2002, 10:18 AM   #2
Kenn
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Re: Bunkai/finishing techniques

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
How many of your have classes teach the Bunkai/ finishing technique of different Aikido techniques? How does your style of Aikido teach them.

I know, I was taught to find five or more different finishing moves in Jujitsu/Karate, but sometimes it is just me and my teacher who understand this concept? Sometimes it is just enough to get to a finishing technique with the beginners and those who haven't cross trained? So, we only do them when the level of experience in the class can get to this point understanding safety with hurting concerns.

Does your teacher have one or more classes that not only show pins and submissions, but strikes to finish opponents?

We don't get there but once a week or less.
Although Aikido IS a martial art, I don't believe you "get" the basic philosophy behind it. With all due repect Bruce, it sounds like you would be better suited to study Jujitsu, Silat, or some other martial art whose main purpose is combat.

Just my opinion, you are entitled to yours, however wrong you may be

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 04-11-2002, 10:25 AM   #3
Jonathan
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In my Aikido training I have been taught, not to "finish" an oppponent, but to control him. If my pin or lock is correct, I do not need to punch out the lights of my opponent. Besides, how can we peacefully discuss our differences if he is unconscious? (Maybe I could leave a note?)

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 04-11-2002, 10:40 AM   #4
DanielR
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Re: Bunkai/finishing techniques

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenn


Although Aikido IS a martial art, I don't believe you "get" the basic philosophy behind it. With all due repect Bruce, it sounds like you would be better suited to study Jujitsu, Silat, or some other martial art whose main purpose is combat.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan

In my Aikido training I have been taught, not to "finish" an oppponent, but to control him. If my pin or lock is correct, I do not need to punch out the lights of my opponent.
I was wondering why making your opponent unable to continue attacking you is against the Aikido philosophy? I understand that the basic approach is to cause as little damage to the attacker as possible while making clear that you're able to control him, but don't you think there might be situations where you're left with no choice? Also, isn't it true that the Yoshinkan style does have finishing strikes? (please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm a beginner in Aikido and my opinion is often not too informed...)
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:44 AM   #5
Bruce Baker
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Bunkai ... clairify parameters

Please do not assume there is any mal-intent in learning and understanding Bunkai.

Assume it is within the tenents of Aikido.

Just because you know how to shoot a gun doesn't mean you will kill others, does it? I hope not. Even though we had multiple murders here in little old Barnegat the last few days, I don't assume it was worse than reported for the reasons reported, even though the old lady information line is alive with rumors? (If it gets that bad we will have to take guns away from policemen too!)

Let us assume we are learning bunkai for the best possible reasons and go on from there ...
Assume bunkai is to immobilize, not to kill. The human body is tougher than some people give it credit to be.
Let us consider it to be something that continues to work after a technique or pin. Does that clarify our parameters?

Thanks.
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Old 04-11-2002, 01:33 PM   #6
Lenocinari
 
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FINISH HIM!!!.....(huh?)

All-

As far as hand to hand aikido I have yet to encounter any sort of finishing move. It seems that with hand to hand you are dealing with someone that doesnt have control over their actions and therefore might have wanted to reconsider. However, when working with weapons (bokken, jo, tanto) the stakes are a bit higher and the ways to neutralize your assailent might leave a bit of a scratch. I believe that this is because of the potential for things to go a lot worse. So far in history there has been only one way to stop an attacker with no harm done to him what so ever...does anyone remember the phasers from Star Trek?

Just some thoughts-
Ben

In order to see the stars, you first have to turn off the lights.
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Old 04-11-2002, 01:44 PM   #7
Greg Jennings
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Re: Bunkai/finishing techniques

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
How many of your have classes teach the Bunkai/ finishing technique of different Aikido techniques? How does your style of Aikido teach them.
Bunkai roughly means "to find the meaning of" or "analysis".

I don't think that has any direct connection to "finishing techniques".

Best,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 04-11-2002 at 01:59 PM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:25 PM   #8
Keith R Lee
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Bunkai

I'd have to agree with Greg on this one. Whenever I have been privvy to discussions about bunkai it has always been in the context of what the technique's original purpose was for. Such as, What is the bunkai of jo kata dai ichi?

Meaning, why do you strike in certain places, and block in others. Where are you supposed to be striking, or when you move into a block, what type of strike are you blocking, etc. Ask a higher level instructor next time you have a chance and ask them about the bunkai of your style's weapons kata.

Personally, I have never heard of bunkai in reference to "finishing moves?"

And yes, there are techniques in Yoshinkai Aikido where the shite finishes with a strike instead of an osae.

Keith Lee
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:03 PM   #9
Dan Hover
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finishing strikes

The common finishing strike that one usually sees in Yoshinkan or other earlier Aikibudo off shoots comes from the Pre war mentality of swordmanship. When we pin nowadays in a standard ikkyo pin, that is, we control to immobilize, thus ended the lesson.
Now the shuto that is commonly seen performed at the end of the pin ( although I have only seen Daito people do it) it's Bunkai stems from the idea that once you had the uke controlled on the battlefield you would then draw a dagger or short sword and then finish them off. This is now demonstrated by the aforementioned shuto. One can see the shift in the performance of this movement in the styles that still retain it, i.e. DTR people still have that "jutsu" mind set ergo the movement is still there. Aikikai and modern day exponents no longer need that particular movement as a) we seldom carry a short sword or dagger with us and b) our point is to control not to conquer.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:12 PM   #10
Greg Jennings
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Re: Bunkai

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith R Lee
I'd have to agree with Greg on this one.
Of course! We both have that Alabama mindset.

I sure wish you, Scott and Dean would all journey down together one Saturday. We could swap techniques, catch big air and generally have a blast.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:36 PM   #11
Keith R Lee
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Re: Re: Bunkai

Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


I sure wish you, Scott and Dean would all journey down together one Saturday. We could swap techniques, catch big air and generally have a blast.

I'd really like to! It's hard to get away though, y'know? Too bad you can't come up to see Blok sensei next Friday/Saturday. I remeber you posting somewhere that your child has a soccer game or something, right? We'll be having two Shodan tests & two Nidan tests on Saturday around 5:30 PM, which are always fun.

Once I get through May I should have some more free time and hopefully we can schedule a trip down to the Capital City.

Cheers,

Keith Lee
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Old 04-11-2002, 04:01 PM   #12
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: Re: Bunkai

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith R Lee

I'd really like to! It's hard to get away though, y'know? Too bad you can't come up to see Blok sensei next Friday/Saturday. I remeber you posting somewhere that your child has a soccer game or something, right? We'll be having two Shodan tests & two Nidan tests on Saturday around 5:30 PM, which are always fun.

Once I get through May I should have some more free time and hopefully we can schedule a trip down to the Capital City.
Hi Keith,

Soccer season is in fully swing. We have games every Saturday through the end of May.

If sometime there is an opportunity on Saturday or Sunday afternoon to get together up there, I could probably make it. Dean tells me, however, that your dojo is normally closed on weekends.

Maybe we can schedule a get together sometime further out. I've really enjoyed what little I've experienced of Yoshinkan aikido. It seems that a lot of the underlying pedagogical principles are the same as my Iwama-oriented training.

Anytime you guys are down this way, please let me know. I can open up the dojo for us to play any time (except Sunday mornings).

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-11-2002, 05:58 PM   #13
guest1234
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Why worry about a finishing blow when you can just apply a power ranger technique---opps, sorry---pressure point knockout technique.

OK, sorry, but it was just to difficult to resist...
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Old 04-11-2002, 06:13 PM   #14
IrimiTom
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all this "finishing move" business sounds to me like something out of Mortal Kombat

I do, however, think that sometimes we might put too much emphasis on the causing as little damage as possible to the opponent thing... I think as aikidoka we are not supposed to CAUSE anything really, if an attacker comes at you with a foaming mouth and a machete, you help him... blend with the floor to make him understand you won't let him harm you that easily... and just cause you won't kill him it doesn't mean let him get up and try again... if a friend is drunk and takes a swing at you cause you kissed his girlfriend... well, you might try to be more spiritual there
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:41 PM   #15
Largo
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Evil Eyes Finishing Moves

If you've pinned someone in, oh, say a sankyo and they are face down on the ground, and you have control of them... isn't it easy to see how to finish them (if you wanted to, that is)
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:59 PM   #16
brian northrup
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bunkai

i agree with irimetom
and please do everyone a favor if you wish to have corrorspondence do it via email
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:57 AM   #17
PeterR
 
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Re: Bunkai

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith R Lee And yes, there are techniques in Yoshinkai Aikido where the shite finishes with a strike instead of an osae.
And I assume a combination of the two - waves from the Shodokan corner.

Still I think it is a bit archaic to mime the movements of throat and tendon cut after the pin is applied. Like if I figure you were that sort of person we would not even get as far as the pin. The idea that this was for battlefields is also a bit of a stretch. Consider the time it takes and that your enemy was not likely alone.

Apply the pin if you wish to control - much better ways to damage someone if that is your intent.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-12-2002, 03:11 AM   #18
nikonl
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Talking

How bout 10 hit combos? or double KO?
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:34 AM   #19
JJF
 
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I am pretty sure that I would never be able to cut the throat of a guy allready pinned - it would be to much in cold blod. Perhaps in the right (wrong) situation I would be able to apply the throw or strangulation-pin in a way that terminated the attacker but I sure hope it wil NEVER come to that. When I do a technique I try to be aware of atemi at all times and thereby the possibility of striking the opponent if I loose control.

I believe that everything we do should reflect the situation. If one guy attacks me, and I'm able to bring him into a pin, then perhaps I would do that, but if there is multiple attackers there most likely wouldn't be time, and I think I would escalate the power of the technique leading to the pin, so that the attacker can be taken out of the equation ASAP and I can concentrate on the next 'bad guy'.

I think I have heard somebody quote Nishio sensei on saying that 'sometimes you have to cut the enemy', which - as I se it - means that sometimes all this talking about harmony and taking care of the oppponent can not be carried out in reality and you have to use the means at your disposal to save yourself.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

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Old 04-12-2002, 04:42 AM   #20
erikmenzel
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First, when I trained shotokan karate (long ago) bunkai was the understanding and explaining of among others kata's. I do not remember any connection to finnishing techniques other then those that where part of the kata's.

Second, wanting to train finnishing techniques clearly indicates that your understanding of the context of aikido is lacking and that you have no understanding of the philosophy and ideas of aikido.

Third, maybe you should spent more time in the dojo instead of playing Mortal Combat all day.

Last edited by erikmenzel : 04-12-2002 at 06:34 AM.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:42 AM   #21
Jorx
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Mortal Kombat that is
I wished I had four arms or something ot acidic spit...

Anyway really...when you already pin/control someone you are in far better position than the uke... so if you are a killer or just a sadist you can hit him/her in pretty much every way you want... no matter how crappy one's strikes really are, a kneestrike to the nuts is always a kneestrike to the nuts.

However a purpose of every technique is:
a) to kill
b) to injure
c) to capture
d) to neutralize in some other way...

Regarding to O'Sensei as I remember it Aikido practices always the way of D (that sounded nice )

However and just for the record we in our dojo sometimes show a strike after controlling the opponent (as in shihonage for example). Even more common thing is that you release the pin and when the opponent tries to stand up or strike then you apply one mighty throw KABOOM...

In dojo and with the beginners it usually comes down to this: "Okay now try to get up... in real situation uke tries to get up." "Nooooo! Do I really HAVE to?!?"

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

P.S. As my knowledge of shotokan is quite close to zero then I actually don't know what a bunkai is
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:32 AM   #22
Bruce Baker
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Bunkai ... hidden

Bunkai can be the many things hidden which will stop, or immobilize from injury, or as I have alluded to ... pressure points also known as excruciating pain?

Let's keep our child like opinions out this, read the thread, and respond responsively?

If I wanted looney toon answers I would watch Cartoon-Cartoon, my wife might think it strange for a 48 year old man, but hey!

I have spent a lot of time exchanging views with many different people on this, and my curiosity was to see what your teachers were allowing you to see in your modern Aikido practice, verses the old ways of MA?

Thanks.
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Old 04-12-2002, 07:30 AM   #23
erikmenzel
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Well,

IIRC bunkai (•ª‰ðjsimply means analysis and has no direct link in meaning to finnishing.

As for the rest of your sensless rant:

the great philosopher Yogi Bear once said:
The deeper you get into the woods, the more nuts you will find!!

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 04-12-2002, 07:35 AM   #24
Ghost Fox
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I've seen finishing moves in Tanto-Dori and Bokken-Dori, but rarely in open-handed techniques. Some of the yudansha and I who are into defensive tactics and self-defense techniques sometimes experiment with finishing moves. Most of them are from throws and not pins. One handed Kotegaieshi with the other hand on the throat, so the throat collapses on impact. A kokyunage (Figure eigth version) where you control the head by grapping thee chin, and give a good snap in the neck during the throw. Those are a couple we have developed (or rediscovered).

With pins we sometimes practice dislocating the shoulder, but that's only for situations where the uke resists the technique. In a real encounter if I had someone pinned and his friend decided to join the melee, you better believe I would break something before I released the pin and engadged his frien. Okay, okay first I would cause pain and threathen to break something if the other guy got any closer.

One of my previous Aikido instructors once threw someone into traffic (splat) during a self-defence situation involving several attackers. Is this an example of Bunkai?
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Old 04-12-2002, 09:14 AM   #25
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Bunkai ... hidden

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Let's keep our child like opinions out this, read the thread, and respond responsively?

Yes, please.

Chuck


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