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Old 12-25-2009, 02:24 PM   #26
DH
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It’s tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-25-2009 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:39 PM   #27
gregstec
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It's tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan
Hey Dan, all that stuff sounds like 'how to' to me - I thought you did not do how to stuff

we all need to get a life! it's xmas for Christ's sake (pun?) time for some holiday cheer

Greg
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:10 PM   #28
Aikibu
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It’s tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan
Interesting Points Dan Thanks ...FYI Nishio did not "invent" "palm up" and it's not so much palm up as "holding sword in hand" Tai Jitsu...I should have clarified this better but I was referring to Chris's Specific Movements in the You Tube and our training paradigm...The Arm is an extension of the Sword/Jo and not the other way around from the point of view of "structure" Hopefully that helps clarify things a bit.

Happy Holidays and Hopefully I'll get a chance one of these days to put flesh and bones towards understanding your excellent expression of Aiki.

William Hazen
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:55 PM   #29
phitruong
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Dan
more waist and less hips for long weapons? don't have much experience with long japanese weapon other than the bo. for some reason the longer the weapon, the more hips i used. i would consider the chinese kwan dao a bloody long and heavy weapon, for example, this dude here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2DahSZyVg
but then again, the kwan dao, i believed, was meant for heavy cavalry troop. i don't ride horse, so do folks use more hips or less hips on horse back? if you only use your waist alone, how do you bring the power of your legs to your arms? i guess i am a bit confused on the power source for the long weapon. i guess i have to run to home depot and get meself a long heavy water pipe to test out the approaches. or could it be i misunderstood your description? very likely as well since i am not experienced in these matters.
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:27 PM   #30
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

i really liked THIS part of the clip you posted Phi.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:20 AM   #31
Michael Douglas
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
i really liked THIS part of the clip you posted Phi.
Funny how the comments are all on about how heavy they are and how his isn't a lightweight floppy one ... but it IS a floppy one, you can see it flex about halfway through the video. Awful. Maybe he canoes.

Back to the OP : Thanks for posting your training thing. Can you do it with the (Jeremy) guy in black not falling down? He could just take a step back instead then you can get more sessions in before he gets tired.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:54 PM   #32
John Connolly
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Hey Michael,

I'm not Chris (duh, right?), but I know his training paradigm. Having uke step back would defeat the point of training w/ 2 people. It would essentially be solo training, which we already do mountains of. The purpose of the 2 person training is to feel where/how ones structure is effected and causes effects in both Uke and Tori. This allows for tweaks to be made in the intent/feel/visualization of solo practice as well as in 2 person waza.

p.s. to Dan, thanks for the thoughtful post.

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Old 12-27-2009, 02:24 AM   #33
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Hi!

First:
I hope you have had some fine christmas days and enjoied it. And those of you who had to work on those days could nevertheless grasp a little bit of christmas.

Second:
I don't want to argue or quarrel! I just come again and again to the same point each time I read about IT oder Aunkai specific practice. or whateve it is called the right way.
Please notice that there is no such thing where I live an practice.

So I get my onlyimpressions and informations about thist way of practice from what you right and show here.

Well, that said ...

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
the "aikido" versions are posted for context and should not be considered ultimate versions of the techniques but as BASIC versions ....
It's not about being basic versions or about being one version among countless others. But you show both basic version of technique on a verry, verry beginners level. (footwork, positioning, where you have your arms ...)
So this execution of this form of this basic techniques in my eyes can't be used to compare it to whatever you want to compare it.

Then showing "your" technique you work a lot more in an advanced way. You move a lot more like it would be expected of someone who is doing Aikido on a more advanced level.
(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)

Please excuse me! I don't know the graduation you hold in Aikido and I don't know the shihan you learned from.
I apologize very much.

Do you do this deliberately?

Quote:
Also, a big part of the problem with video is the old, "it has to be felt".
Well yes: But I only have the video ...

Quote:
So much of why what I'm doing in the vid has nothing to do with the specifics of the technique and all about how my body is coordinated.
So: What can be shown this way? How can I get what you like me to get, if it can't be communicated by a video?

And well, if you move showing "Aikido" structured like a beginner and you move showing "your technique" like a more experienced or advanced practioner (in our nomenclatur) i nevertheless have to believe that these differences are not of importance?

So if it's not about technique and not about youf body structure what can I see in your video?

Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

Quote:
As an old training partner from Aikido (yodan with almost 20 years of Aikido) who recently started training with us when he felt these versions put it, "Holy Sh!t!!!"
Well, that's the same what we here some times. But we are just also doing aikido.
Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?

Again: I don't see anything which I haven't seen in an aikido-dojo. But you are wright: I only can see it. I don't feel it.

Greetings,
Carsten

Last edited by akiy : 12-27-2009 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:48 AM   #34
Upyu
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if you only use your waist alone, how do you bring the power of your legs to your arms? i guess i am a bit confused on the power source for the long weapon. i guess i have to run to home depot and get meself a long heavy water pipe to test out the approaches. or could it be i misunderstood your description? very likely as well since i am not experienced in these matters.
Er Phi, I think you can figure this one out, seeing as you're working on this stuff yourself. If you twist the hips you break the connection. And obviously it's not the "waist" alone that powers it. So the real question is "what" do you use to turn without breaking the connection you have through your crotch to the legs to the horse...
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:33 AM   #35
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi!

(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)

Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?

Greetings,
Carsten
Here's a clip of William Gleason teaching recently.

He was a long time Deshi of Yamaguchi, I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs_Gnigupo

Also, I saw this on TV the other night and I figured it's what Akuzawa gets up to on weekends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8DNg3kgTDU
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:36 PM   #36
JW
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Hi Chris, thanks for posting the vid. I think it is really important for the future of aikido for people to be doing this kind of "body research" and to be showing others.
I like it as a demonstration of "non-internally powered aikido" vs "internally powered aikido using the aunkai method." One thing that troubles me though is that we as readers/community have to recognize that this is what the video is for, rather than being a general non-internal vs internal aikido.

Put another way: if Morihei Ueshiba posted a vid to illustrate his "what you people are doing is not aikido!!" comment, what would it look like? He could show what not to do (might look like the aikido versions in Chris' video). Then, when he shows what TO do, it would not look like Chris' aunkai method aikido, yet it would be another form of internally-powered aikido, I think we can all agree. In other words, the shapes/forms that he left us are in line with his method of internal strength-- that's why he could execute the waza that way.

So, we could do research and make vids of putting all kinds of internal strength methods into aikido throws. They would all be rewarding. But if we trained in whatever secret/not-so-secret ways that O-sensei trained, we should also be able to make a vid of non-internal aikido vs O-sensei's internally-powered aikido.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?
I like this question. It is what I am talking about. O-sensei was FOR SURE getting fascial torque across the cross, but his forms look the way they do. So I think in general, maybe there are lots of ways to do certain things, so that O-sensei and Akuzawa were in some ways doing the same things (like torque across the cross), but using different methods of getting those things (one using arm extended and one not so much).

Don't know really, just thinking out loud.
--JW
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:59 PM   #37
ChrisMoses
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Sorry for the delayed responses, more to follow. My rad wife got me a PS3 for XMas and when not playing Bakugan with XuanXuan, I've been deep in the study of MotoGP 08 and Assassins Creed II (awesome).

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Do you mind going over what you're working on in this part? At a guess, I'd say keeping the spine centered in your body while you move. Keeping slack out of the arms and the arms connected with the upper cross. Do you have contradictory forces going out both arms? Are you working on up/down of the spine, too? Are you using the arm "twisting/turning" to start a sort of torque in the arms?
All of that and none of it really. I've done enough twisted mabu and shintaijuku and I'm actually trying to maintain the sensation of those exercises but with a partner, particularly on the first one. The arms have contradictory forces, but I'm trying to not give into the temptation to generate those forces with the muscles of the shoulders and arms. I'm really working on keeping the shoulders soft all the time. As for the twisting of the arms, it's like the arms rotate because of the pull of the waist and the waist moved because of the pull of the arms it's one unit. Spine is always up down, shoulders are always out/in (sideways), six directions yadda yadda yadda... Again, the first one is very much an exploration of a solo exercise with a partner. Nothing more. Particularly with the first one, I'm not even saying that the "Aunkai" version is better, the BASIC RUDIMENTARY kokyu done at the beginning is there to put eveyone on the same page, defining terms so to speak.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
One of the hard parts is to tell just how much "resistance" Jeremy is giving. Don't take that the wrong way, just saying it's hard to tell from video. IHTBF.
Yeah, I'm reminded of some of the early videos of Ark and Rob doing standing aiki-age and thinking I could see what was going on in the video. Then I met them, and realized just how much resistance Rob is capable of generating while looking like he's just standing there, then I felt Ark and realized just how much power he can generate and well, that changed things now didn't it...

I will say that in the BASIC versions, Jeremy isn't offering much resistance. That's because there's no way I could throw him with those versions if he was going to resist me. He does offer quite a bit of solid foundational resistance in the second versions however. On most people at the dojo the technique actually looks more like twisted mabu/shintaijuku but I wasn't very on that night and couldn't complete the circle. Doesn't bother me one bit if you think he's tanking. Although if you know what to look for (particularly in the second frame based version of the first waza it's pretty clear he's not tanking).

Chris Moses
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:04 PM   #38
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.
Dan, interesting post. I'm assuming you're talking about the first one? If so, three comments. First: again I'm trying to actually do the solo exercise with resistance. I need to work at it more, as I mentioned to Mark, with most folks I can basically just do twisted mabu, but Jeremy is really solid. Second, the more applied version of what I demonstrated there (the one that Neil likes a lot better) is much more in line with what you recommend. The waist drives the cross in a pure horizontal plane until uke is compressed then we add a weight drop to effect the throw. Third: the heel rotation is from our Yanagi Ryu influence, so take it up with Don.

Thanks very much for the comments!

Chris Moses
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:06 PM   #39
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Back to the OP : Thanks for posting your training thing. Can you do it with the (Jeremy) guy in black not falling down? He could just take a step back instead then you can get more sessions in before he gets tired.
What John said, you really need solid resistance all the way through the movement to get the feedback you're looking for. Besides, as you can tell from our, er, physiques, we could probably use some more falling down and getting up in our lives...

Chris Moses
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:33 PM   #40
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Lots here, but I'll offer a few responses.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post

Second:
I don't want to argue or quarrel! I just come again and again to the same point each time I read about IT oder Aunkai specific practice. or whateve it is called the right way.
Please notice that there is no such thing where I live an practice.
No worries, all fair questions. Let's both realize that there's nothing I can say in a forum or do in a video to dismiss all doubt, so with that said...

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It's not about being basic versions or about being one version among countless others. But you show both basic version of technique on a verry, verry beginners level. (footwork, positioning, where you have your arms ...)
So this execution of this form of this basic techniques in my eyes can't be used to compare it to whatever you want to compare it.

Then showing "your" technique you work a lot more in an advanced way. You move a lot more like it would be expected of someone who is doing Aikido on a more advanced level.
(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)
Certainly one of the problems with videos in general and what I did in particular. Again the first part is basic to give context to the next part. I would say that what I'm doing in the second parts LOOKS like some Aikido, but FEELS and (most importantly) is accomplished differently. I don't know if there are enough words out there to go through all the reasons why, but that's my OPINION.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Please excuse me! I don't know the graduation you hold in Aikido and I don't know the shihan you learned from.
I apologize very much.
No need for apologies, you're rightly looking for context. I don't want to write a whole resume, but I received my shodan from direct students of Kurita Minouru Shihan (one of Osensei's Uchideshi, also influeced by Saito Sensei and Nishio Sensei). I then trained under Kimberly Richardson Sensei who trained under Mary Heiny Sensei with influences from Tom Reed, Saotome Sensei, Ikeda Sensei and others. She promoted me to nidan in 2002. For the last six years I've trained under Neil Yamamoto, the head of Icho Ryu aikibudo in a small group setting. Neil doesn't offer rank anymore so I haven't been promoted since I was at Two Cranes Aikido. You mention Yamaguchi, I assume you're referring to Seigo Yamaguchi sensei? I do have hands on time with Takeda Yoshinobu Sensei who was one of (the?) senior students of Yamaguchi sensei. I was never a student of his but I have been to a week long seminar, a few guest classes and visited his dojo in Yokohama. I've taken ukemi from him and some of his senior guys. I mention this just for some potential context.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Do you do this deliberately?
You mean do I hide my training background deliberately? No. Ask if you want more detail.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So: What can be shown this way? How can I get what you like me to get, if it can't be communicated by a video?

And well, if you move showing "Aikido" structured like a beginner and you move showing "your technique" like a more experienced or advanced practioner (in our nomenclatur) i nevertheless have to believe that these differences are not of importance?
Initially I was just going to post this to a private forum for other Aunkai practitioners. A lot of these context questions wouldn't really matter there since I've met some of them and we all share some common frames of reference. At the last minute I decided to throw it out generally. I really don't care what you believe. It's not a promotional video, nor an instructional video. It's intended as part of an ongoing conversation with other people exploring similar training methods. If someone outside of that conversation finds something interesting, then that's awesome. But that was never the goal of this vid.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So if it's not about technique and not about youf body structure what can I see in your video?
Well, I would say that it is partly about body structure. If you see that or not is hard to say. I would wager Mark, Dan or Rob saw something about body structure in the video (even if some of what they saw was something negative) they probably saw something.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?
Very good question. The answer is I can sometimes get a similar support to the cross without the other arm outstretched and that's my goal, but I'm still working up to being able to maintain the cross just as stably no matter what the arms are doing. It's a training tool, and I am usually stronger with the arm extended. In the Iriminage, the arms are not extended into the cross after the beginning of the technique, but the cross is still behind my movements and why Jeremy goes down so fast. It also may be hard to see, but the iriminage is actually a sequence of three specific atemi using the cross.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well, that's the same what we here some times. But we are just also doing aikido.
Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?
Having felt Takeda Sensei, I would say that this is quite a bit different from what you feel in Yamaguchi style Aikido, my opinion certainly, but that's all I can offer over the web.


Last edited by ChrisMoses : 12-27-2009 at 02:36 PM.

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Old 12-27-2009, 04:23 PM   #41
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Sorry for the delayed responses, more to follow. My rad wife got me a PS3 for XMas and when not playing Bakugan with XuanXuan, I've been deep in the study of MotoGP 08 and Assassins Creed II (awesome).
Welcome to the world of PS3 gaming.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'm reminded of some of the early videos of Ark and Rob doing standing aiki-age and thinking I could see what was going on in the video. Then I met them, and realized just how much resistance Rob is capable of generating while looking like he's just standing there, then I felt Ark and realized just how much power he can generate and well, that changed things now didn't it...

I will say that in the BASIC versions, Jeremy isn't offering much resistance. That's because there's no way I could throw him with those versions if he was going to resist me. He does offer quite a bit of solid foundational resistance in the second versions however. On most people at the dojo the technique actually looks more like twisted mabu/shintaijuku but I wasn't very on that night and couldn't complete the circle. Doesn't bother me one bit if you think he's tanking. Although if you know what to look for (particularly in the second frame based version of the first waza it's pretty clear he's not tanking).
No, didn't think he was tanking. More along the lines of what you thought about Rob (I haven't met Ark) generating power while just standing there. It's really hard to tell just how much structure and power someone has on video. So, I just made mention that I couldn't tell at what level of power/structure you were working.

Again, thanks for posting.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:30 AM   #42
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Dan, interesting post. I'm assuming you're talking about the first one? If so, three comments. First: again I'm trying to actually do the solo exercise with resistance. I need to work at it more, as I mentioned to Mark, with most folks I can basically just do twisted mabu, but Jeremy is really solid. Second, the more applied version of what I demonstrated there (the one that Neil likes a lot better) is much more in line with what you recommend. The waist drives the cross in a pure horizontal plane until uke is compressed then we add a weight drop to effect the throw. Third: the heel rotation is from our Yanagi Ryu influence, so take it up with Don.

Thanks very much for the comments!
Hi Chris
Actually I'm talking about both.
No big deal. I was suggesting that with the feet flat on the floor and the hips staying in line; the feet / waist / spine and arms will no longer just be moving horizontally or "together" in the way you are moving.
*Note, I'm not talking right or wrong here. I am talking about how you are training the body for power. When I see various kokyu throws being worked on I don't think just horizontal and I don't think hips. The legs would "each" be supported by two different things going on in them at same time as well which keeps the feet ankles in-line and stable-so for my purposes much of that movement violates what I would be seeking to remain connected. The pronated hip you end up with in your turn is just not somewhere I want to go in my own training. YMMV.
You might want to consider how what you are doing and specifically working on will "feel" and function while making repeated cuts across a floor with changing vectors and angles with a sword or large weapons. I think not so good.

Since you would have to change the essential body quality- why do anything that isn't consistent and cogent throughout? As you have noted by your many influences; there are ways to do things that are not all the same and indeed do conflict. For me I prefer movement that is consistent from start to finish, unarmed, and armed with sword, long weapons or twin sticks, Aikido, Jujutsu, MMA, etc.
Happy Holidays
Dan
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:16 AM   #43
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

This post seems relevant:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...124273#p124273
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:02 PM   #44
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
whaddya do if you can only 'feel' it so far..and gets stuck? or if there are gaps in `yer lines?

-keep trying
-stretch
-flex more
-hold static
-soft tissue work

??
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:03 PM   #45
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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I think that post's a keeper, Mark. Thanks for pointing it out. Everyone should put that one in their files for future reference.

Chris: Maybe if you broke the video even further down and simply tossed the "martial applications" bit while focussing on why one thing is stronger than another? What's actually happening that you feel makes one throw "stronger" than another? Couldn't you take a static target and apply a force against it one way and then compare it with a force another way?

One of the problems, as people have more or less vaguely pointed out, is that as you complicate a demonstration with "is that a committed attack?" etc., you get diverted from the point you're trying to make and think about. Frankly, the discussions about I.S. that move too quickly into "applications" also too quickly (IMO) get off into technique, uke-cooperation, and so on. I like the stark, clinical way of discussing what's going on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:17 AM   #46
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Just to clarify, I didn't mean there wasn't a committed attack. You can tell Jeremy has some force going. My point from personal experience with video is that you can't really tell how much force is being used.

Personally, I like the application usage that Chris and Jeremy showed. I'd be interested in seeing more. I think there's room to talk about how to train from solo training to two person drill training to application training. Yet still not doing techniques.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:38 AM   #47
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

No worries Mark, I never took any of your posts that way. My reply to you was intended to echo how hard it is to tell how much force is actually part of an encounter on video, but must have come out like I was trying to convince you. My bad.

Mike, those are all good suggestions and actually reflect how we train in class to a large extent, experimentation followed by physical and verbal feedback (from Neil and from other people in the group). As for tossing out the "martial application" side, this video was never intended to demonstrate applied or "martial" waza. Both are explorations of movement with a partner, the second is more like applied waza, but it still a teaching technique for the most part.

Since my goal in posting videos is to engage in conversation and not to offer how-to or a sales pitch I don't think I would go into quite the detail you're talking about in video format. I think we would hit the same issues of what is/isn't resistance and compliance.

But, since they are good points of conversation, I'll try to go into a bit more detail here a bit later.

Thanks to everyone for the conversation, good stuff.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:27 AM   #48
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Mike, those are all good suggestions and actually reflect how we train in class to a large extent, experimentation followed by physical and verbal feedback (from Neil and from other people in the group). As for tossing out the "martial application" side, this video was never intended to demonstrate applied or "martial" waza. Both are explorations of movement with a partner, the second is more like applied waza, but it still a teaching technique for the most part.
I take it as a given that you effect kuzushi in some manner (it's a separate discussion in itself), respond, turn, pivot, or whatever... there are a number of factors. Ultimately let's say that you look at the part where you effect the "throw". I could say (for the sake of discussion) that in the first throw you did technique, leverage, etc., and in your Aunkai-appearing attempt you did something else that was "easier" and somehow different. So just looking at that isolated part (you can see how all the rest murked up the discussion) of a "normal" versus a "Aunkai"-related throw, my question would be why that part is effective and I'd say let's break it down. If we can break it down an analyse that small part so that it's understood and then work to improve that aspect, we can ramp back up to the "martial application" level and then (hopefully) have the most effect utilization of I.S. skills in the technique.

In my opinion, jumping too quickly into the most "martial" application tends to leave people with bad habits that are difficult to correct later on.

Take a pole-shake with a white-waxwood pole as an example. In a way it is a simple "application" and I've seen a lot of people say they were doing a pole shake with "internal strength" (often some pretty strong shakes, too, which would certainly be martially applicable, if need be). Yet in many/most cases you can see that in rushing for the results (read "technique") a lot of the other factors like dantien, suit, etc., got left out. The way to analyse and correct is (IMO) to look at the exact moment of application and analyse at that one point, not cloud the issue with everything else or, worse yet, add in an attack by a partner to further cloud the issue. If you see what I mean.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:17 AM   #49
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Chris,

Just curious. Where we are at now in our training, we sort of do 3 types of training with an eye towards a fourth. Roughly broken down, that is.

1. Solo training. Conditioning the body with internal training exercises. Actually the Aikido "warm up" exercises seem to be a good fit for this, too. I do the "rowing exercise" but completely differently than before.

2. Paired partner training. These are simple exercises that are either static or the most basic of movements. I guess one example would be a push test. One person stands while the other person pushes/pulls either an outstretched hand, a shoulder, the chest, hips, etc.

3. Paired partner exercises. These begin to be dynamic but aren't complex. I would put your video in this category. While we might train some specific technique, like cross hand wrist grab kote gaeshi, we aren't working on the technique. Instead, we work on keeping structure and intent under a more complex load or force. In this case, an uke who is providing force while there is movement from both uke and tori. It's never about the technique as we will stop at various times to pick up intent or structure that was lost.

4. Free style. Spontaneous techniques, randori, etc. Using aiki in a free environment. (Not there yet.)

We actually subdivide each section into two: uke is using muscle and uke is using Internal Skill/Structure/whatever. So, we will work with an uke who uses normal muscle and then we'll do the same exercise using an uke who attacks with structure. Uke reacts very differently in each mode. It's good to train against both. As we progress, the former is getting a lot easier while the latter is getting a lot harder.

Just wondered if that compares in any way to your training?
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:53 PM   #50
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

That's actually really similar to how we're doing things Mark.

Newer people will spend more time on the solo and push test phases while the rest of us will move on to waza work, but like you we're using the waza to feedback into the solo skills/sensations. Like you, we're still kind of working up to freestyle. Too early, and I think you just fall back on what you know and end up doing the same old. We do have a few freestyle drills that we do pretty regularly but they're a far cry from (judo) randori or sparring.

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