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Old 04-17-2002, 03:36 AM   #26
bujin
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Quote:
Go to a biker bar, find the biggest guy in there and make a derogatory comment about his mother and the neighbors goat. If you live, keep doing it until win. There, now you can fight. But can you type?
Thanks for the advice .
Aikido is budo, a martial art, isn't it? It's not about competition. Nevertheless it's about fighting. If I remember well, O'sensei used to give lessons them, who wanted to try him out. What was it then if not a fight?
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:13 AM   #27
guest1234
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Well, this is just one very personal, not based on anything important opinion, but...

I'd say to some of us, budo is not about fighting, or about not fighting. And that this particular martial art is about overcoming ourselves, not others. Not everything pertaining to a warrior has to do with fighting. Secretary of State Colin Powell comes to my mind a lot lately. Definately a modern warrior.
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Old 04-17-2002, 06:13 AM   #28
thomson
 
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Thumbs down Bikers

Quote:
Go to a biker bar, find the biggest guy in there and make a derogatory comment about his mother and the neighbors goat.
Hey, we bikers love our goats!
But seriously, if you REALLY want a workout just stop by Sturgis,SD in August and pick the wrong campsite and spout off! Fun Stuff! My kinda people!

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-17-2002, 06:31 AM   #29
thomson
 
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Smile Good Point

Quote:
I'd say to some of us, budo is not about fighting, or about not fighting.
I agree wholeheartly with this. I could fight before I got into aikido, I started training to learn something about myself not to become a better street fighter. If thats what I wanted out of martial arts I probably would have taken a "jutsu" style that emphasizes injuring or killing opponents.

Its interesting how often in these forums and in class we ask "will this work on the street?" While I agree its fun to play the 'What If' game, at times it seems (to me) to get out of hand in the forums. PPL bickering back and forth about who's 'What if' is a more accurate or likely in a street situation.

If you really want to know "does technique x actually work against attack y" then go out and start issuing challenges like in feudal Japan. Thats the way Musashi determined what worked and what didn't. Take a look deep inside and ask yourself why you are in MA's, ie. aikido.

Might have gotten a little off subject, sorry. Just something I had to get off my chest.

Later.
Mike

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-17-2002, 09:16 AM   #30
Lyle Bogin
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Perhaps "pointless" techniques are a reflection of the "pointlessness" of life.
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:56 PM   #31
thomson
 
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Freaky! what the hell was I on?

I just reread my last post and I apologize to everyone if it sounds preachy. I haven't got a clue what I was thinking. Apparently I shouldn't post anything before I've had a morning cup of coffee.

Mike

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:15 PM   #32
tedehara
 
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Question Re: Pointless techniques

Quote:
Originally posted by bujin
Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?
I would say that majority of kokyu nage techniques are pure līart pour līart.
If done correctly, ALL Aikido techniques are kokyu nages.

Kokyu nage originally means Breath (Kokyu) Throw (Nage). However a better translation of it would be Timing Throw, since traditionally the timing was taken from the breath. You always struck or threw on an exhale.

When you do a technique in Aikido, you're always looking for that perfect timing, or at least performing the technique within the Window of Opportunity (Time) that the technique permits. Therefore, by definition, all correctly done Aikido techniques are kokyu nages, since all techniques are accurately performed within the field of time.

That means you don't have to grind down someone in a sankyo or break your partner's wrist in a kotegashi. Your training partners will gratefully follow your superb lead because you've developed impecable timing in your techniques.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:45 PM   #33
bujin
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Quote:
Well, this is just one very personal, not based on anything important opinion,
Iīm afraid youīre wrong, Colleen. No one has the right to call in question personal experience of someone else. My aikido practice is as important as yours. This is what I call free thinking.
Quote:
Secretary of State Colin Powell comes to my mind a lot lately. Definately a modern warrior.
He is both poor warrior and poor secretary of state. Bad example.
Quote:
Its interesting how often in these forums and in class we ask "will this work on the street?"
And this frequency is meaningful. We cannot look at aikido as if it was something idealistic, quasi-philosophy or quasi-religion. Oīsensei was a real fighter in his times. He did not avoid fighting. Ask anyone of his students, if you donīt believe me.

Quote:
If done correctly, ALL Aikido techniques are kokyu nages.
Nikyo can be also kokyu nage, if you want it. Thatīs right.



Best regards

Bujin
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:53 PM   #34
guest1234
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Hi Bujin,

I think you misunderstood me, which is understandable, since English is not your primary language, and your English is better than my German-- nonexisitant-- (and about the same as my Russian). If you go back and read my post again, you will see I said MY opinion was personal (it is), just mine (it may be), and not based on anything important (to anyone else, to me my thoughts and beliefs are important).

I said it was MYopinion that budo was not about fighting, that it was MYopinion that Aikido is about overcoming ourselves, not others (you obviously disagree, but I am entitled to MY opinion, and it CAN be different from yours), that in MYopinion Colin Powell is a great warrior (and he is in MY opinion doing a good job of it, and his position, by trying to broker peace within the framework of an administration that is seeking war, you of course can form your own opinion).

I am sorry you did not understand and that it bothered you. Feel free to think Aikido is about fighting, to you it is, to me it's not.
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Old 04-17-2002, 03:11 PM   #35
Don_Modesto
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Re: Good Point

Quote:
Originally posted by thomson
I could fight before I got into aikido, I started training to learn something about myself...
1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?

2-What did you want to learn?

3-What did you learn?

4-What taught you?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-17-2002, 03:46 PM   #36
thomson
 
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Thumbs down good questions

Quote:
1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?
I've just typed out 3 or 4 answers to this question and none of them seemed right. I'm sorry I can't give a good reason. It just felt right.



Quote:
2-What did you want to learn?
I had a list a mile long when I started. It's started to narrow a bit, I feel as if I'm starting to focus slowly. Now I think the number one thing I would like to learn is tolerance and understanding. Right now I tend to be very critical and unbending. I don't know how aikido will teach me what I want, but again it just feels right.

Quote:
3-What did you learn?
So far, that I have a loooooooooong way to go before claiming to know anything.

Quote:
4-What taught you?
I'm not sure if I truly learned anything yet. I suppose if anything I'm learning by trying to be more open and listen more.

Thank you very much for asking Don, I hadn't thought of 1,3 or 4 before. I appreciate the mental 'wake up' slap.

Mike

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-17-2002, 04:38 PM   #37
guest1234
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I would like to try answering those 4 questions as well:

2. I was at the end of a messy two years trying to get a divorce. I wanted to be more certain that what I thought was right was right -- hard to explain, but anyone who has left an abusive mate knows what that means, that kind of relationship takes away one's certainty in oneself. I wanted it back.

1. I was sceptical Aikido would help, but an Iwama-style teacher I know (he's the stereotypical Iwama sandan, arms like a gorilla and about as much time spent discussing philosophy of Aikido as a gorrilla would spend ) told me I needed to do Aikido, that it would give me what I needed. I believed him only because he seemed to have what I wanted, and he said he was not the same man before Aikido, that if I did Aikido, I would find what I wanted.

3. Still a work in progress, but I can say what I think without worrying it will upset someone. I refuse to take responsibility that is not mine. For instance, I disagree with some of the views of some of my instructors. I am OK with not seeing it their way, but at one time would have continually beat myself up over not agreeing with them, and been afraid they would find out and it would hurt their feelings, etc. Now, I assume they are adults who can handle disagreement (they seem to be able to), and the fact that they want me to think differently doesn't mean I have to be unhappy that I don't. On the other hand, I mostly attend classes taught by instructors that are not radically different in viewpoint; still, I do sometimes attend the other's classes, and take what I can and give what I can in them. I think my personal life has made similar progress, but won't bore you with the details

4. How I interact with different teachers and partners and their personalities. Letting others take responsibility for their actions (atemi, amazingly has done this the most): my current aiki-idol really stresses the use of it, and I can see why he wants it where he does, it seems what he shows me is more 'space preserving' (or that's how it seems to me), keeps uke off of me (certainly important, especially since I'm small and folks tend to crowd me). In the beginning, I resisted doing this, as uke always seemed to run into my hand. After a while, I found I no longer cared, it was their decision to run their face into my hand, everyone knows I put my arm out to keep them off of me, I let them make their decision and I made mine.
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Old 04-18-2002, 02:55 AM   #38
bujin
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Hi Bujin,

I think you misunderstood me, which is understandable, since English is not your primary language, and your English is better than my German-- nonexisitant-- (and about the same as my Russian). If you go back and read my post again, you will see I said MY opinion was personal (it is), just mine (it may be), and not based on anything important (to anyone else, to me my thoughts and beliefs are important).

I said it was MYopinion that budo was not about fighting, that it was MYopinion that Aikido is about overcoming ourselves, not others (you obviously disagree, but I am entitled to MY opinion, and it CAN be different from yours), that in MYopinion Colin Powell is a great warrior (and he is in MY opinion doing a good job of it, and his position, by trying to broker peace within the framework of an administration that is seeking war, you of course can form your own opinion).

I am sorry you did not understand and that it bothered you. Feel free to think Aikido is about fighting, to you it is, to me it's not.
Dear Colleen,

1.Yes, indeed I overlooked that it's only your opinion. My fault.
2. Perhaps I watched "The Ghostdog" too many times and therefore I think that "budo" means "the way of samurai" or something like that.
3. Overcoming ourselves (beautiful phrase) is the necessary condition of any progress.
4.I suppose that your Russian is better than mine .
5.For me the spiritual purpose of practicing aikido is as important as its practical side.
The most important is whether your aikido works or not. Anything else doesn't matter that much. But, of course, it's only my opinion.

Best regards

Bujin
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Old 04-19-2002, 02:25 AM   #39
Steff
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Re: Re: Good Point

Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto


1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?

2-What did you want to learn?

3-What did you learn?

4-What taught you?

Oh, oh - Don, these are tricky questions. But they are the ones I am asked very often when I tell people I am practising aikido. So, thanks a lot to you for asking them . I started aikido just six months ago and have wondered myself a lot why I started and why I am still doing it. I am very curious what the answers will be in another 6 months, in a few years aso.

But anyway, here are my answers for the time being:

1) Well, I read a few things, heard a few comments on budo and MA and whenever they were about aikido-techniques I thought: wow, perhaps I will be able to do that (I hated sports all my life so far). But I didnīt think I would learn how to fight - I just wanted to get a better grip on myself.

2) see 1) and: Like the other two who answered so far (thankx ) , I had a list as long as my arm. But first place, I wanted to learn the techniques, the moving, the style. I expected the other, more philosophcal and strategic things would follow when the body and mind were ready and trained.

3) No, this would take toooooooooo much space

4) It was not a "what", but a"who", and it still is. All the people at the dojo, my senseis, and all the people I am talking (and writing ) with about aikido.

Sorry for all the words, have a sunny day,
Steffi

Steff
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Old 04-19-2002, 12:17 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Re: Good Point

Quote:
Originally posted by Steff
Oh, oh - Don, these are tricky questions.
I realized a while ago that, unlike myself, many practitioners were attracted to the art simply for its philosophy. With me, it was a bait and switch: I wanted the martial magic promised in Tohei Koichi's books. Now, however, I truly look askance at aikido's utility--but I'm still doing it. "Why" is a good question for me, so I'll give these questions a shot, too.

1-What did you want to learn in aikido?

Effortless technique, invulnerable fighting ability (I was in my teens.)

2-What made you think you'd learn it ?

As per above, Tohei Koichi's books.

3-What did you learn?
4-What taught you?

How much I learned when uke get through defenses once in a while/the lessons to be learned from "losing"

The importance of timing, of waiting till it's right to throw, of not forcing technique/patience

How to take a punch (one of my dojos was, er, atypical)/tolerance for criticism.

How irriated I got when uke didn't fall, or did rise out of my pin (despite my desire to have authentic technique)/how my ego could interfere with my goal

To go back to the beginnning when things don't work; this probably facilitated by Saotome's genius as a teacher, his way of breaking down and grading students' approach to a technique.

The importance of connection, simplicity, and repetition. These usually arising from sessions doing kokyu exercizes; I find techniques starting to flow spontaneously from very simple beginnings.

The excruciating balance of vigor and reticence necessary for good ukemi/er, tough love?

The pleasures of community, shared endeavor, sincere colleagues.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-19-2002, 02:42 PM   #41
Bruce Baker
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useful insights

The beginning .... useless techniques

The response ... what you know.

The interaction ... personal contact.

The result ... usefull knowledge.

The end result ... a usefull technique.

The picture of life:

.... in the days black plague ... amongst the death and bitter life children sing," Ring around the rosy, pockets full of posies, ashes ... ashes ... we all fall down!"

Why?

Joy, love, and children at play are the constant Aiki of our lives.

Temper your learning, insights, and words with these things.



See the good in all things.
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Old 04-21-2002, 07:48 PM   #42
warriorwoman
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pointless techniques

There is no such thing as "pointless" techniques, merely techniques we have yet to discover the point of.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org
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Old 05-13-2002, 08:04 AM   #43
Paul
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It would appear that the question of whether or not aikido would work for you in a fight should really read; would your aikido work in a fight?
Aikido techniques were not created by O'sensei. However they were created as real solutions to real combat questions. Aikido techniques are perfect, it is we who are ruining them.

Regards Paul Finn
Edinburgh
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Old 06-13-2002, 07:20 AM   #44
vikki
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Pointless Techniques!

Hi, i have been doing Aikido for 11 years now and through all that time i have never seen or practised a pointless technique. we are preparing ourselves 99% of our Aikido lives ready for that 1% when we really need it.
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Old 06-13-2002, 08:25 AM   #45
paw
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Well, I supose this will get me flamed and added to many ignore lists.....

It seems to me that when someone speaks about a technique, there is an implied context. In a multiple attack training situation (ie 3 ukes, one tori with sensei and class watching), I suspect that dropping down to one's knees to perform swari waza techniques is probably not the best choice for tori. Tori is probably best served by remaining standing.

Does that mean swari waza techniques are pointless? I don't know. I'd agree if someone said they were (given a specific context) and I'd agree if someone said they were not (because of benefits in other areas). I don't think labeling a technique as "pointless" is any threat or belittlement of a martial art or martial system given a specific context per se.

Ducking for cover,

Paul
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Old 06-13-2002, 08:29 AM   #46
SeiserL
 
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I think there are techniques that are more pratcical than others. At times, I feel that some of the technqiues I practice are to teach me principles of Aikido rather than direct application readying me for a bar room brawl. On some of Peyton Quinn's tapes, he has a sidekick that apllies Aikido very well to just this situation. Very effective.

I would also agree that the question is about the pointlessness of a certain technique more than can we discover the point and make it effective. There are technqiues that I know I cannot at this stage make work, yet I have felt my Sensei slam me with.

Just stay open and let the point discover you through the practice. There was much I did not understand and there will always be new points to discover. That's the beauty of Aikido.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-16-2002, 12:53 AM   #47
davoravo
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There are no pointless techniques, just techniques you would feel uncomfortable using.

One of the junior students at our dojo (we are talking less than a handful of classes) walked up to his car to find it being broken into. He yelled out and one attacker ran up and grabbed him, preparing to punch. Our student, obviously a quick learner, turned in a circle and flung his attacker off in a kokyu nage, kicked his assailant twice in the head (aiki??) and ran away unharmed.

David McNamara
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Old 06-16-2002, 10:53 AM   #48
mike lee
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knowledge is power

Turning movements are for demonstrations and direct, entering movements are for the street.

The large turning motions help students learn to use their entire body properly. If they were to try to learn quick, entering movements too soon, they would not use their entire body properly -- they would only use their arms and their technique would be weak, if not totally useless.

It's unfortunate that many teachers don't tell their students this from the beginning so that students could fully understand what they were doing in practice. The proof that many teachers don't really know what they are doing is evident by the fact that this thread even exists.

If students try to use big, slow movements in a life and death situation, they will be killed.

Last edited by mike lee : 06-17-2002 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 06-16-2002, 10:17 PM   #49
davoravo
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Re: knowledge is power

"If students try to use big, slow movements in a life and death situation, they will be killed. [/b][/quote]"

I don't think it is that absolute. Sure, squaring off with another martial artist irimi techniques can give you the "secret-edge" you need to make aikido work, but most assualts are suprise attacks and I think that tenkan movements lend themselves well to responding to an attacker who is already on top of you.

Also, mucking around with mates, I found I got in trouble if I sped my aikido up to their timing rather than slowing them down to my aikido timing.

David McNamara
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Old 06-27-2002, 10:32 AM   #50
Jermaine Alley
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No such thing as pointless techniques...Every technique that you would use has some sort of purpose to it....whether it be learning how to lead, or off balance your attacker, or proper "dead angle" positioning...etc.
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