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Old 12-22-2009, 08:49 AM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Um, Ueshiba does owe his martial skills to Takeda. That's fact. Just as Sagawa owed his martial skills to Takeda. You might still be searching for that holy grail of the Chinese connection via Deguchi, but it's pretty obvious to anyone doing the in depth research in Daito ryu where Ueshiba got his martial skills. Where aiki came from. That would be Takeda. Fact. And aiki
Nobody has ever questioned where Ueshiba got his prior training. Did Takeda do Misogi the way Ueshiba did? Do you understand what Misogi breathing does (hint: take a look at a post I recently put in one of P. Goldsbury's threads). So does Ueshiba owe everything in Aikido to Takeda? Not proven. But the sheer number of posts you and Dan have devoted to it show that it's a fixation to diminish Ueshiba's role in Aikido. Let's see how big that number of posts is, now that you've asked for it.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:52 AM   #52
Stormcrow34
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Again, I encourage people to.go meet the real master level guys and cross-hands with them.
Happy holidays
Dan
Excuse the interruption gentlemen, but will someone please tell me who "the real master level guys" are and where I can find them?

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-22-2009 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:24 AM   #53
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Nobody has ever questioned where Ueshiba got his prior training. Did Takeda do Misogi the way Ueshiba did? Do you understand what Misogi breathing does (hint: take a look at a post I recently put in one of P. Goldsbury's threads).

Mike Sigman
Great questions, Mike.

Can you post the relevant proof of how Ueshiba did Misogi breath training? Can you post the relevant proof of if, when, or how Takeda did breath training? Then, can you correlate the two? How in depth is your research into Daito ryu breath training methods from known and capable men who use aiki (there are less than a handful in that category)? How in depth is your research into Ueshiba's breath training. You can't use Tohei because he went elsewhere for his breath work. We're talking Ueshiba and Takeda.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Ueshiba's spiritual Misogi breath work was an adaptation/incorporation of what he learned from Takeda's breath training? Just like his spiritual vision was incorporated into his aiki training, which, btw, he learned from Takeda.

Just as all the other students of Takeda took their training into personal levels, so did Ueshiba (I've said that many times). Ueshiba found the spiritual (for example, Deguchi and Oomoto kyo) and incorporated that into his martial abilities. I don't get into the spiritual because it's a worse mess than aiki. IHTBE, not IHTBF. It Has To Be Experienced. Reading, writing, and Feeling won't get you there. Spirituality is in the direct experiences. Feeling Ueshiba as he's possessed by kami isn't going to do anything. You have to experience that first hand. So, anyone out there want to jump on that bandwagon???

Anyway, until proof surfaces of what the actual breath training that Ueshiba and Takeda did, I think it's pretty much a stab in the dark at what they mean. So, hint wise, unless you've got proof of the above, I don't see where anyone without the necessary research could come to distinct conclusions. Opinions, yes. But we all have that, don't we?

Unless you want to post in depth research into correlations between the Chinese breathing methods, Japanese breathing methods, Ueshiba's take on breathing methods, and Takeda's breathing methods? Like I said, great questions ... no research, facts, or answers given ... just opinions. It would be a nice offshoot thread from this one, though.

Course, if you really want to trivialize things, you could just open a thread on being trivial instead. That'd be a much greater use of time and research. Oh, wait. You did. Huh. Choice between posting information and research about Ueshiba, Takeda, breathing methods, etc or a thread about digging up supposed posts on trivializing Ueshiba. What was that Indy scene ... oh yeah, which Carpenter's Cup did you choose?
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:27 AM   #54
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Excuse the interruption gentlemen, but will someone please tell me who "the real master level guys" are and where I can find them?

Thanks and Happy Holidays!
While they probably wouldn't say they were "master level guys", I'd say that Liu Chengde and Li Chugong seem pretty good. Howard has spoken very highly of Okamoto. A lot of people seem to think Sam Chin is very good. There was a thread here on Aikiweb that listed people to visit. Quite a few people have trained with Akuzawa. That's a start, hopefully.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:55 AM   #55
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

"Can you post the relevant proof of if, when, or how Takeda did breath training?"

Has anyone looked into the kiai/kokyu methods of Jikishinkage-ryu? Nahhh... couldn't be.

Chris Covington
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:17 AM   #56
Stormcrow34
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
While they probably wouldn't say they were "master level guys", I'd say that Liu Chengde and Li Chugong seem pretty good. Howard has spoken very highly of Okamoto. A lot of people seem to think Sam Chin is very good. There was a thread here on Aikiweb that listed people to visit. Quite a few people have trained with Akuzawa. That's a start, hopefully.
That's a start and thank you. With all of the....well you know....going on around here, it's difiicult to tell who the charlatans are...or aren't....

Thanks again.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:26 AM   #57
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

THESE are the Charlatans

-------------------

My opinion = 2cents; okay? Keep that in mind. : ]

I find it funny talking about off-topicness in this thread.
What was the topic again? "Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts"....shame really...you guys may have had a really interesting talk and we (/I) would've gotten to learn a lot by eavesdropping.. dang. Isn't this kind of one area of your specialization Mike? Something historically you have been most interested in discussing? I would love to hear more from you on this very topic; and how you experience chansijin; and all this stuff. Is chansijin an inner loop in the body too? Is it the same as how the (parts of the) DR model was explained? SOrry; if I make a lot of mistakes. My reach exceeds my grasp (as usual)

I guess now there's so much bad mojo a real discussion isn't likely. Maybe others'll run with it.

RE: last post. Thanks for your response Mike. Can I be honest enough to say, I struggle with something. Frankly; your answer as to why it's difficult to post 'how-to' or nuts-and-bolts details flies in the face of what and how you claim QIJIN workds. You see that, right? Then at the very same time you suggest we do that very thing to stimulate the conversation. I really only care about the specifics; that stuff is really cool. Any chance you could post a reference to a post of yours you feel has a similar level of detail from the archives? I don't know; and re: Detail vs. How-To:: at some point a specific enough description of "what" is going on has to be able to be taken as a 'type' of a 'how-to' in that....well....now you know "what'....that should be a good enough hint/helper for you to start to find 'how-to'...so I feel it gets confusing when the descriptions are specific enough. Yeah; it certainly could be more step-by-step; but I don't know that i ever saw that here.
2/ And also; Dan made some pretty serious accusations about your MO and past behaviour. What's up with that? If that is true well...damn...no kidding you guys don't get along. Keep in mind; I have no idea about any of this personally; but that is what a stranger to all this sees.
3/ re: breathing=relax: i personally felt it was referring to this post. You could probably go into more specific detail had you wanted to there (no?). You wrote on the type or quality of relaxing; but can it be taken literally as the same type of 'description' taken as a 'how-to'? I think you are. Is there more you could point to to help? Are you pointing to submerged breathing? Or something else? You talk about the importance of the breath: I always wished you had gone on and wrote more on that post. Just a teaser that! Or do I miss the thing right in front of my eyes? (again!?)
4/ And re: "Giving to Get"...For instance Phi made a cool post just now you could've launched off of; and i've tried to do that too(for sure i've not done as well); but you and others choose not to respond. And that has to be okay; and now maybe neither the time nor place, nor absolutely is it not owed ;but you do choose when and how to respond (as you should); so it doesn't seem fair to accuse Dan of doing the same, eh? That is a bit of a disconnect.

Anyhoo.... as usual; those are unsolicited thoughts from the peanut gallery. worth what you paid for them.
NATTA!

p.s. re: Phi's post
"where is the middle, where the up and down meet"
How about this; They don't meet...as in collide; but rather have two lines (that are either up/or/down) that do either...and then you 'intentionally' meet/or/mix them in the 'switching yard' that is the hara/dantien area (i.e. the cinnabar/mixing field): between either 'groundpaths':
gp 1/ they go right into the "wheelhouse" of the gluteus maximus and then connect and link on the lines on the 'outside/rear' of the body
or
gp 2/ The go up through the soleus/rear-groin/psoas/dantien/center line on the 'inside/front' of the body
Then 'choose' with bodyskill how to combine them to 'meet' in a useful way with the center/intent/dantien area. Which one is up and which one is the down... is 'up' to you?
? dunno.

More interesting would have been is these question'
re: "where is the middle, where the up and down meet"
Do all arts have the same answer to this question?
Are there 'standard' answers to this question in JPN and CN arts? Is one more likely to 'answer' it in one way or the other?
How does 6-harmony movement answer this? How does Aikido/DR answer this?
/random thoughts

Happy Festivus Everyone!
Don't forget your pole!

Be safe out there!
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:10 AM   #58
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Great questions, Mike.

Can you post the relevant proof of how Ueshiba did Misogi breath training? Can you post the relevant proof of if, when, or how Takeda did breath training?
You've got it backwards, Mark. You and Dan are the ones claiming Ueshiba got all his stuff from Takeda, so those particular proofs are in your court, as I've pointed out before. If you don't have any knowledge or proof that Takeda's misogi training was the same as Ueshiba's then the "Ueshiba got everything from Takeda" argument falls on it's face.

Asking me to prove/disprove what you've posited about Takeda/Ueshiba is frowned upon in Debate 101.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:02 PM   #59
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You've got it backwards, Mark. You and Dan are the ones claiming Ueshiba got all his stuff from Takeda, so those particular proofs are in your court, as I've pointed out before. If you don't have any knowledge or proof that Takeda's misogi training was the same as Ueshiba's then the "Ueshiba got everything from Takeda" argument falls on it's face.

Asking me to prove/disprove what you've posited about Takeda/Ueshiba is frowned upon in Debate 101.

Mike Sigman
Usually the burden to counter previously known and accepted research is on the late arrival.

Actually I don't state what you just offered as my opinion. That's yet another incomplete and poorly defined view of my opinion.
I offer known facts and the research of others. The proofs are already established. To which I often discuss how and when and where he modified that to include specific directional changes, as well as changes to the body method that had to take place to achieve his goal.
I think you are confusing my comments about his proven training history, with what he did after.

Verified training history of Ueshiba
1.The only lengthy training Ueshiba ever got (over 20+ years) was in D.R. period. Everything else was discredited.
2. He taught and handed out scrolls to all of the prewar deshi in...DR.
3. The only people known in Japan known to have equaled or surpassed (pick your poison) were his peers in.....DR.
4. There is no other evidence to support or negate that what he did was based on anything other than DR. And that he-like his peers-only expanded on later. The essential skills and power being DR
4. There is no proof that what he trained was not already included in Takedas training regimen. (I think he did add things too, but we cannot prove it didn't already exist in DR. No one knows what Takeda taught).
5. To date; no one can produce evidence of anyone who trained ONLY in Ueshiba's later methods who matched his power. Only those from DR with Takeda's teachings did.

I am all for giving him credit for "growing" and changing and making discoveries. Which when I am not being misquoted, I frequently say. Sagawa , Okomoto, Kodo, all stated they made discoveries past their initial eye-opening experience in DR. In fact many in DR say that. The body method -by its nature-opens your mind. Ueshiba's changes were more prounounced as they were a marked difference in the execution and look and feel of DR...by choice. I happen to admire the choice, as I am quoted on in Ellis's book.

But in the end what do we know and can prove? In his time, the story of unusual and immense power and skills begins and ends with Daito ryu.

What isn't true
All that is left is a continuing string of people to show up over the years with their "theories" and speculations of where he got his body skills, to include; yagyu, mastery of multiple koryu, Bagua, misogi training and others. All of which have been debunked.
But no one until now- asked for or demanded an unsupported speculation be proved false.

To state I trivialize Ueshiba -or that anyone from establised DR schools does, is a fabrication. I think he is just viewed in a proper perspective.
Happy Holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2009 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:15 PM   #60
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Usually the burden to counter previously known and accepted research is on the late arrival.

Actually I don't state what you just offered as my opinion. That's yet another incomplete and poorly defined view of my opinion.
I offer known facts and the research of others. The proofs are already established. To which I often discuss how and when and where he modified that to include specific directional changes, as well as changes to the body method that had to take place to achieve his goal.
I think you are confusing my comments about his proven training history, with what he did after.

Verified training history of Ueshiba
1.The only lengthy training Ueshiba ever got (over 20+ years) was in D.R. period. Everything else was discredited.
2. He taught and handed out scrolls to all of the pewar deshi in...DR.
3. The only people known in Japan known to have equaled or surpassed (pick your poison) were his peers in.....DR.
4. There is no other evidence to support or negate that what he did was based on anything other than DR that he-like his peers-only expanded on later. The essential skills and power being DR
4. There is no proof that what he trained was not already included in Takedas training regimen. (I think he did add things too, but we cannot prove it didn't already exist as no one knows what Takeda taught).
5. TO dat, no one can produce evidence of anyone who trained ONLY in Ueshiba's later methods who matched his power. Only those from DR did.

I am all for giving him credit for "growing" and changing and making discoveries. Which when I am not being misquoted, I frequently say. Sagawa , Okomoto, Kodo, all stated they made discoveries past their initial eye-opening experience in DR. In fact many in DR all say that. The body method -by its nature-opens your mind.

But in the end wha to we know and can prove? In his time, the story of unusual and immense power and skills begins and ends with Daito ryu.

What isn't true
All that is left is a continuing string of people to show up over the years with their "theories" and speculations of where he got his body skills, to include; yagyu, mastery of multiple koryu, Bagua, and others. All of which have been debunked.
But no one until now- asked for or demanded an unsupported speculation be proved false.

Happy Holidays
Dan
What was that? It certainly wasn't a logical defense of the idea that Ueshiba got his "power" and/or m.a. skills only from Takeda. Your reasoning falls back to "no one has proved that Ueshiba didn't get everything from Takeda", which is, again, back to the question of asking others to prove a negative.

Let's go to one point that I've made a number of times. If Ueshiba got his "power" from training some unknown methods of Takeda, why did Ueshiba use misogi breathing exercises (and related)? Was Ueshiba preaching his misogi breathing/exercuses while in secret he was doing something else, in some bizarre attempt to mislead people?

In other words, the constant minimization of Ueshiba's skills has a very big question-mark/hole that calls, at a minimum, for further exploration and a few less posts denigrating Ueshiba's efforts. The number of posts spent diminishing Ueshiba on an Aikido forum has got to be something for the record books.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:34 PM   #61
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Nobody has ever questioned where Ueshiba got his prior training.
Oh REALLY? Where have you been

Quote:
Did Takeda do Misogi the way Ueshiba did?
Do you understand what Misogi breathing does?
Do you understand what AIki in yo is and does?

Quote:
So does Ueshiba owe everything in Aikido to Takeda?
Not proven
Not disproven either

You're still at zero.

There were 23 years of training in DR- and nothing else that even comes close.
1. He got and was being recognized for power DURING his time with Takeda.
2. There was no time period AFTER when he suddenly (and provably) got MORE power.

Now, once again, put your thinking cap on.
Who else do we know had that kind of power that we have testimony of?
Takeda
Sagawa
Hisa
Kodo

And??? Who do we have in that time period from misogi training with provable power and skills like those men?
Er...no one...you're back to zero again aren't you?
Dan
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:36 PM   #62
ChrisMoses
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Just sayin...


Chris Moses
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:37 PM   #63
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Priceless!
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:40 PM   #64
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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"This is like deja vu all over again."
Yogi Berra.


David
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:52 PM   #65
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

just sayin'
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:48 PM   #66
John Connolly
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

LOL, Chris!

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Old 12-22-2009, 04:32 PM   #67
gregstec
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Yeah, that is IT ! - now all we need is a 'How to' manual - any takers?

Last edited by gregstec : 12-22-2009 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:38 PM   #68
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh REALLY? Where have you been
Gee.... I just flipped open a book by K Ueshiba and it's there.... all about D.R. Maybe I'm misreading.
Quote:

Do you understand what AIki in yo is and does?
Is it like Vodka and makes you drunk? We oughta make that a new toast: "Alki in yo face!".
Quote:
Not disproven either
Er... I rest my case.

"Not disproven" means your case isn't proven, in other words. I could say more, but it might give away something and I want you and your guys to enjoy what you have.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:23 PM   #69
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

In the words of Rob Liberti, "for the love of God, give it a rest".

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:38 AM   #70
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm misreading. Is it like Vodka and makes you drunk? We oughta make that a new toast: "Alki in yo face!". Er... I rest my case.

....I could say more, but it might give away something and I want you and your guys to enjoy what you have.
Mike Sigman
This misdirection may work on some people but it's transparent to me.
1. So you don't know what Aiki in yo ho is and does?
Why not just say that?
2. The translation I offered of what the Hong guy was doing you say wasn't accurate? How, where?
3. You say over and over I don't offer information-I pointed out your many errors in that regard....no answer just more misdirection

Please spare us more invective, dissembling of your knowledge and very questionable abilities to actually fight with what you do or do not know. In your reply follow your own advice:
Start with a sentence of actual substance of a technical process.

I call B.S. on you Mike. SImple, and direct. Other than you quoting others-I've never read a single word of anything "deep" coming from -you- personally.

I've a sense that I'm arguing with a desk sergeant who never put his boots in the mud.
Dan
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:29 AM   #71
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Since this started out as a potential discussion of internal power in the JMA and how it might compare with the CMA, I would like to once again suggest people get out and test and play with both. How are-you-going to know unless you get get dirty and do the work? At a point, experienced people can at "feel" what some teachers feel like and know it's not a direction they're interested in-others may feel something they have not felt before and start a wonderful second martial art career.

Most-if not close to all- of the people who train or have trained here have now felt and to some extent trained with various combinations of: Okomoto, Kiyama, Saotome, Otake, Chiba, and Liu ChengDe, CXW, LDX, Wang hai jun, He jin bao. Added to that list are Sigman and Arkuzawa. I could include modern style MMA styles (but its not the point).

When it comes to training and testing they have at least stepped up to begin their own personal evaluations and search. It's best for each person to be a bit cold-blooded and analytical. Take nothing at face value and make personal assessments of what you have felt and where you want to personally go. It does no good to take advice from sources with questionable hands-on skills, nor from people playing expert from outside the arts.
Get in and get dirty and feel actual experts and then see what their top students feel like. Here's another tip; if you are looking for IP/ aiki, and the substance of the training is waza, or "principles" of waza and the teacher isn't getting their hands on you and fixing various ways you are carrying and handling your weight, or getting into details of how to help you feel and adjust and fix your body and giving you solo work - it might not be where you want to go long term.

Waza and a teachers "feel" can be compelling, and if their students can express similar characteristics, then even more so, but the key is to get a firm comparison to others doing similar work and -their- students as well. Ask how long they have been training and what they do. If they don't have regular students or if you can't feel someone with power they have created-that might speak volumes. There is no end of teachers in the JMA and CMA who are guilty of that.

Even though Mike and I don't get along we can at least say that there is an effort under way for some people like him, and Ark, Ushiro, and I to actually teach various methods to gain power and sensitivity. Forgive us our debates and don't let it sway you. I know from people who have trained with them that Mike and Ark and Ushiro are all approachable in person. If you want to know about me ask around; there are dozens of people here who know me. The internet isn't a good judge of personal character.
This is about you right? Like I said, be cold blooded and analytical, strive for you. IP/Aiki remains the best training in the world for understanding the MA of the world.
Good luck in your search
Happy holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-23-2009 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:34 AM   #72
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Start with a sentence of actual substance of a technical process.
OK.

Aiki in yo ho is the application of systemic resonant shear -- meaning that stresses and motions are enabled to change sign and planes of action interchangeably and continuously -- torsional, tensile or compressive shear that applies torsional, tensile or compressive buckling or funicular load shifting: torsional, like in a torqued pool noodle; tensile, like in a whip; compressive, like in a collapsing building; funicular loading, like in a chain or arch.

And technically, that was all in one sentence.

What a great exercise. Like haiku with mechanics, almost...

One training method -- find all the ways your body can act in the manner of those things.

Here endeth the lesson -- but the proof is left as an exercise for the class...,
---------------------------

But -- somehow -- I rather doubt the complete sincerity of the request.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:50 AM   #73
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

I made no request from you-therefore the sincerety is not an issue.
Aiki in yo ho has not one thing to do with that Eric. It's a completely unrelated topic to what you wrote.
That was sincere by the way.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-23-2009 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:46 AM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This misdirection may work on some people but it's transparent to me.
1. So you don't know what Aiki in yo ho is and does?
Why not just say that?
Try the archives, Dan. I said that every variation of the single jin, neijin, groundpath, weightpath is simply a variation of the core jin. I've said it a number of times. There is nothing to Aiki in yo ho, to reiki-no-ho (just to grab another of example of how different appellations of the same core skills are still the same core skill), and others that isn't some known variant. I.e., there's nothing you know that I don't know or that any reasonably skilled-in-I.S. CMA'er isn't going to know. The fact that you don't understand that highlights where you are. You're mixed up about the idea of "one jin", "groundpath" as being a simple descriptor for the "jin that starts at the feet, is controlled by the waist, and expressed by the hands", and a number of other things. You're trying to play buzzwords, which is worse yet. All these attempts of yours to trivialize and name-call simply don't work, but they certainly leave an opinion about you.

I've asked over the years that you try to get into some explicit how-to's. I've asked explicit questions *based on assertions you have previously made* and you can't answer them. So most of your comments look like spite that is designed to compensate for what you really know. Let's drop it. Take any functional, mechanical statement I've made on this forum and expand on it. That's the way we did it on the Neijia List, Dan.... if you knew something you could discuss it in depth. If someone didn't know much, they invariably went to spiteful commentary... and it was obvious to everyone. I.e., it's very hard to hide your level when you have to engage in an open, forthright discussion. On the other hand, I'd suggest that you would be far ahead of where you are now if a few years ago you'd dropped the pretense of being all-knowing and simply engaged in honest, functional discussion.
Quote:
2. The translation I offered of what the Hong guy was doing you say wasn't accurate? How, where?
Dan, since you started this game of taking information from some of my old sources and then saying that it is "beginner stuff", I've blocked off your access to new info and re-jiggered the QiJin forum so that the better levels of information can't slip out for you to use. You should know what the Hong guy was saying and meant. It's pretty obvious. Your problem is that you hang around with guys who don't know enough to feed you what's really going on. BTW... why pick Hong and his guys as experts anyway? Aren't you aware of the real history of Chen FaKe and the Beijing students he had, most of whom all claim to be the single person where the true Chen style resides and that Chen Village has lost the real stuff?
Quote:
3. You say over and over I don't offer information-I pointed out your many errors in that regard....no answer just more misdirection
Where.... show me one instance of real and useable information that is correct. Maybe I've missed it. If so, I'll apologize.
Quote:
I call B.S. on you Mike. SImple, and direct. Other than you quoting others-I've never read a single word of anything "deep" coming from -you- personally.
Well, maybe so, Dan. You've quoted from my posts and videos of the past, in archived discussions, so you've obviously gone and searched for the material. You've de-briefed people who have been to my workshops. And of course you're free to continue the role that "it's all baby stuff that Dan has known for 100 years", but many of us in the CMA community have seen this play out before. Here's what happens. If you want to play that game then the spiggot gets turned off and your guys wind up in 10-20 years have the equivalent skills of a Stan Baker. All you had to do was drop the role-playing and do some honest discussion and I'd have been happy to oblige. Now my koryu vows prevent me from telling you anything.
Quote:
I've a sense that I'm arguing with a desk sergeant who never put his boots in the mud.
Keep trivializing, Dan.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:18 PM   #75
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

DH writes:
Quote:
Please spare us more invective, dissembling of your knowledge and very questionable abilities to actually fight with what you do or do not know. In your reply follow your own advice:
Start with a sentence of actual substance of a technical process.

Other than you "quoting" other sources-I've never read a single word of anything "deep" coming from -you- personally.
And?
Crickets.................

Dan
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