Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-18-2009, 03:05 AM   #1
swalsh
Dojo: Watanabe dojo/Australia
Location: Perth
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
When were Aikido waza named?

A query some of the learned folk of this forum may be able to answer. I recently had a discussion with a friend who studies Yoseikan Aikido and the differences between waza names e.g. Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Robuse. On my Yoshinkan side of the house, we are often told that the waza names come from the pre-War naming. My Yoseikan friend mentioned that the naming of Aikido waza in the modern Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc forms took place during a conference in the 60's era.

Is this rumour or can anyone confirm/deny? When in the development of Aikido did they stop using the Daito ryu waza names and start using the modern names?

Regards,

Stu
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 10:34 AM   #2
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 485
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

I was once told by a former Hombu deshi that O'Sensei would do a technique (after some esoteric discussion), say 'kokyunage', then leave...lol The problem he stated was that O'Sensei called every technique 'kokyunage' so K.Ueshiba and some of the other seniors started to name the techniques for the sake of clarity...although ikajo, nikajo, etc were in use pre-war.
I'm not sure how true the story is but if so I find it telling in how O'Sensei viewed what he was doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 10:48 AM   #3
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

You would do well to refer to some of the work of Stan Pranin and Ellis Amdur for more in depth knowledge on this, as my answer will be rudimentary at best, but it goes something like this:

Daito-ryu has series of techniques named ikkajo, nikkajo, etc (there were many techniques in each series). When O'sensei synthesized his Daito-ryu into what became Aikido, he essential took one technique from each of these series and that's the Ikkyo, nikkyo, etc that we have today. Though I can't recall of O'sensei actually named them specifically, that transition would have been right before or right after WWII. That's not a pinpoint anwer, but it's as close as I can give.

The systemization of the techniques, I believe, was done by second Doshu.

Last edited by chillzATL : 12-18-2009 at 10:51 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2009, 07:09 PM   #4
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

O sensei never named any of it, he just did it to my understanding. The Doshu ruled at that. Typical Aikikai Aikido still uses the waza that the Doshu used. Different federations diverted from that waza calling.

Ikkyo, nikkyo... it is just numbers, like, technique #1 and technique #2 ^_^
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 01:46 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

Does anyone know if the Daito ryu licenses given to the prewar deshi were written by Ueshiba? If so, does anyone know of the actual technique names were listed, and if so, what names were used?

My guess is that Ueshiba wrote those scrolls, or at least dicatated them, and that there were specific technique names used, and that they followed closely the Daito ryu naming conventions.

A lot of those licenses were lost during the war (I believe Gozo Shioda's was) but surely at least some of them survived.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 01:04 PM   #6
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 384
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

From my understanding, some of the previous posts have bits and pieces of the answer. Daito-ryu has several classifications with numerous techniques within each class {ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, etc..}. O'Sensei took several techniques from each classification when making Aikido. Some of the techniques names were changed while some were kept the same. Ikkyo is Ippon dori in Daito-ryu and Nikyo is Shuto zume while Kotegaeshi remained the same as examples. I think O'Sensei gave the names to the techniques for Saito Sensei and Ichidai Doshu has the same name for the techniques but they didn't practice together. One being in Iwama while the other being in Tokyo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 04:15 PM   #7
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

And then we have the Yoseikan case, with Robuse being Ikkyo, Kote Kudaki being Nikyo, Mukae Daoshi being Irimi Nage and so on. If O Sensei is the source for the names of the techniques... why Mochizuki changed them? Or O Sensei's not the source?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 08:39 PM   #8
swalsh
Dojo: Watanabe dojo/Australia
Location: Perth
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

Thanks for all your input.

The systemisation of Aikido by Doshu, Saito, etc makes sense and that would explain the modern naming and timeframes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 04:05 AM   #9
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
From my understanding, some of the previous posts have bits and pieces of the answer. Daito-ryu has several classifications with numerous techniques within each class {ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, etc..}. O'Sensei took several techniques from each classification when making Aikido. Some of the techniques names were changed while some were kept the same. Ikkyo is Ippon dori in Daito-ryu and Nikyo is Shuto zume while Kotegaeshi remained the same as examples. I think O'Sensei gave the names to the techniques for Saito Sensei and Ichidai Doshu has the same name for the techniques but they didn't practice together. One being in Iwama while the other being in Tokyo.
Saito M. and Ueshiba K. certainly did practice together... in Iwama after the war. O-sensei had retired to Iwama and so his deshis had to go there for direct training with him. Tohei K, Ueshiba K, Shioda G, Abe and Saito all trained together there under the tutelage of the founder.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2009, 04:32 PM   #10
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 384
Offline
Re: When were Aikido waza named?

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote: View Post
Saito M. and Ueshiba K. certainly did practice together... in Iwama after the war. O-sensei had retired to Iwama and so his deshis had to go there for direct training with him. Tohei K, Ueshiba K, Shioda G, Abe and Saito all trained together there under the tutelage of the founder.

/J
By practice together, I mean come up through the ranks and struggle and experiment with each other on how the techniques are supposed to work. When O'Sensei retired to Iwama, he gave over the day to day operation of honbu to Ichidai Doshu. He was/had to be accomplished in his own right to run/teach at the dojo for the other senior students to follow him.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yoshinkai - Beyond the "Hard Style" Label Susan Dalton Columns 8 11-16-2011 07:53 AM
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 122 02-10-2010 05:39 PM
The Use of Atemi (Striking) in Aikido George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 2 08-08-2009 10:09 AM
What Aikido is Not (IMHO) SeiserL Columns 17 12-24-2007 03:23 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 06:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate