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Old 12-14-2009, 02:54 PM   #26
Flintstone
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.
Or waki gatame / hiji kudaki. A favourite of mine.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:42 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ikkyo

yup! lots of cool stuff to do which is why it behoves uke to attack and respond properly!

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Old 12-14-2009, 06:26 PM   #28
seank
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Re: Ikkyo

Kevin has some really good points about proprioception. I often relate that just as uke grabbing your wrist lets you know where they are, you grabbing your ukes arm lets them know where you are!

As far as a fully resisting uke is concerned (ie "I'm not going to bend my elbow") I would suggest you ask said uke to try a little experiment. As your uke to stand on the spot and tense all of their muscles - arms, legs, the lot. Then ask them to try and jump up and down. If they tense everything they won't be able to move.

Striking (punching, kicking, shuto, etc.) when you have a stiff arm is akin to trying to drive without bending your arms. You simply can't drive without bending/relaxing your arm. The uke that "straight arms" an attack is simply inviting a broken arm or a damaged elbow or again as Kevin mentioned a nice hip throw.

No one throws a punch and leaves the arm hanging out there trying to muscle their way out of something...

Back to your original question - I'm not 6' 2" so I can't comment on the height aspect, but having ducks disease at 5' 7" I often have people taller than me where I find myself in a similar situation. It often helps to remember that your ukes strike must come to you, not the other way around. When you can effectively meet, blend and control (not grab) the attack, you should be able to lower your centre over your ukes and draw them to the ground. This assumes that you keep unbendable arm not draw your uke into your own centre.

Its a challenging but fun technique to play with and you invariably get a different result every time you change uke (unless you're practiced enough to replicate the effect every time (one year I'll get this!)).

Hope the practice goes well
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:47 PM   #29
Abasan
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well it is.

Greetings,
Carsten
This 2nd video is probably more useful for a beginner who already understands chushin and atari. But imagine for a moment he isn't Endo's student. He will assume that he can stay rooted in the spot to take the shomen. And then he will assume he can just bring down uke's arm with his arms. This video shows very good ikkyo, but without an explanation on the internal mechanics. Maybe starting with structural kuzushi, maai and tai sabaki would be better. IMO at least.

Raul, no offence on your posting. I just saw that the 1st video is more ki no nagare and the emphasis was more for intermediate students. But you're right, its ikkyo without a bump to the ribs that you wanted to highlight. You don't need to bump the body when you can bridge it through uke's hands and Endo's video is perfect as an example.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:09 PM   #30
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ikkyo

Yes, Ahmad, your point is well taken. I suppose in my posts in this thread, I just want to address the concept that tori needs to get closer to uke to get ikkyo to work. The OP talked about wanting to bend over to "get closer to the arm" to affect uke. Others spoke of using the knee to get an effect. But tori already has an atari, a point of engagement with uke, and that's all he needs. Endo talks about this (and demonstrates this beautifully) in his dvds.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:00 PM   #31
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: Ikkyo

hi there

i am only 6 foot 1 but i train in China, so usually i am practicing with people a lot smaller than me

Ikkyo, in the OP it sounds from your wordig that youmight be doing th ikkyo incorrectly, i am refer in to the use of the word 'force' and the fact that the arm is too far away for you to grab,

certainly dropping my center helps, but as i said, something doesn't fit in your writing of the tech, (maybe i am readin it wrong)

i have never had big problems doing ikkyo to people smaller than me, shihonage however................
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:35 PM   #32
Rob Watson
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... a proprioceptive response from uke...
Do you mean "I'm losing my balance" (uke says) in the kinesthetic sense or something along the lines of a refex of simply a response to being grabbed? "Proprioceptive response" seems a bit of a non-sequitur/oxymoron ... when I feel hot (as in burning) I pull back as a response but my sense of heat is not changed. Proprioception being ones awareness of ones body parts and their positions being distinct from the kinesthetic sense of balance and awareness of a state of motion. I'm confused on how you are using the term.

As for my take on ikkyo (I vote as not the most diffculy technique-in case anyone is counting):
Ukes response to sensing their balance being taken is to attempt to regain balance (or escape) which leaves an even bigger opening or simply further unbalacing. If one attempts to apply ikkyo but basically stops with their arms extended in front of them (at waist level with ukes arm captured) then that is not really ikkyo. Once ukes arm is captured and their balance taken (or given as is proper for senior to allow beginners a chance to learn) the motion continues until the arm is pinned onto the mat!

I see this problem all the time with omote and ura - there is a hitch in the technique where tori just stops (after the turn in ura or with ukes arm held at the waist omote- without much of tori arm extension to boot). Keep the technique moving until stopped by the mat!

Kihon with a really skilled uke might require the 'bump' but try to find an Endo clip in ki no nagare with a 'bump' ... besides the one from the mat.

My 2 cents. Maybe you are right, Kevin, the medium is not quite up to the task.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 12-15-2009, 07:55 PM   #33
Abasan
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Re: Ikkyo

Robert, I believe Kevin is relating to the fact that if you force something to move it will undoubtedly meet with resistance, in this case Uke's reflex to counter. As opposed to moving uke along the lines of least resistance, or better yet where uke would naturally move.

As far as getting ikkyo or rating it, I think I'll still be 'getting' the aha moment until the day I die.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:03 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ikkyo

Proprioception as in like the hot stove syndrome. If I touch a hot stove, it will generate a response. Maybe I am not technically using the word correctly, but the grab will/should in most people generate a natural response to do something, usually uke will stop moving forward, attempt to center his/her body, and pull away.

If you grab my wrist, for example, there is typically a proprioception that is communicated to me. If you pull, I will typically pull back and break contact with you. It does not make sense to me to continue to allow you to hold me. However, if you are "good" it is possible for you to make contact, not generate any "communication" at all, and leave me disoriented as to what to do and hence, it does not generate a response to pull back.

I talk to folks I am working with about giving me a reason to hold on. There are two reasons for me to hold on. First, you relay no message to me at all through your connection as to where your center might be. Two, you may communicate your center, but I realize that by letting go, there is worse things that might happen to me.

In Ikkyo though, for most beginners, grabbing is not the thing to do. They have not developed the skills necessary to avoid an incorrect response, and I submit that they will never learn it by reinforcing the bad things that go with the grab.

Therefore, I find it better to not grab at all, which eliminates this, and then requires them to learn how to control uke through their structure. The interesting thing I think is that by simply not grabbing, Uke immediately loses this proprioceptive reference point, which should by Nage more time, and causes Uke to continue through with his attack, therefore, committing his center "more".

It can be a scary thing to "let go" (no pun intended) as our fear is that by not grabbing we are gving up control. AND by not grabbing earlier, we are allowing uke more time to attack us which in our logical minds is a bad thing as conventional wisdom would say to us that grabbing often and early is much better than not grabbing and doing it later!

In reality, we find in our practice that sometimes not grabbing and allowing uke to continue through, gives us Time, causes uke to commit fully, and screws up his Decision/Act loop sense the feedback he needed to continue on to the next step was never there!

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Old 12-15-2009, 11:10 PM   #35
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Re: Ikkyo

Robert Watson wrote:

Quote:
As for my take on ikkyo (I vote as not the most diffculy technique-in case anyone is counting):
I agree, it is difficult. Maybe the most difficult as you state.

Why?

Well I think a number of factors.

1. Both Uke and Nage know the attack/response
2. It is simple...both the attack and the response.
3. It is narrow...there are only so many parameters that can get injected into the situation and Uke knows this.
4. It is a simple, balanced attack from the front with both uke and nage in a balance kamae.
5. Even as a committed attack, Uke can retain his balance if Nage does not figure out how to disrupt it.
6. Uke primarily controls the timing and distance of the situation, therefore, initially controls the OODA loop...Nage is playing "behind" the loop from the start of the technique and most figure out how to disrupt it and get ahead.

Well, these are the thoughts that come to mind...which actually make Ikkyo a very good tool for training. A simple, basic, yet very challenging puzzle to master.

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:00 PM   #36
roadtoad
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Re: Ikkyo

osensei was fond of saying, 'even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo correctly, or not'.
My idea is, thar almost no one does, The original idea was to stretch uke's loins, not just wrestle him downm then push him to the side, The original idea was to 'uplift' uke, in order to enter his attack.
Only Senudd, in sweden, seems to attempt to do it this way. Of everyone I've seen lately.
Of course, everyone still uses swordstrike for shomenuchi, which automatically negates any possibility of using ikkyo against a boxer, for example.
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Old 08-18-2012, 09:37 PM   #37
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
osensei was fond of saying, 'even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo correctly, or not'.
My idea is, thar almost no one does...
Assuming this saying is true, would it not more likely mean something along the lines of "I've forgotten what ikkyo is" (because he'd mastered the principles the techniques are designed to teach) rather than "this darn ikkyo, will I ever get it right?"
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:49 PM   #38
Dalaran1991
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Re: Ikkyo

I'm only a noob 4th kyu, but aren't you supposed to do sankyo when you fail at ikkyo at exactly the point where the OP has trouble with (having the arm but not the control)? At my level sensei said that sankyo is a fail safe for ikkyo if you miss it. Of course this is not relevant if you just want to get ikkyo well, but I think part of Aikido is knowing what to do when you mess up.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:21 AM   #39
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ikkyo

Quote:
Daniel Davis wrote: View Post
The problem I have with bending at the knees (and this is true with other aikido movements as well) as that I can't move forward very well when my knees are bent. I do like the idea of giving Uke a bump at an angle to help get the Uke down.
Do you do any yoga? Know what warrior 1 is?
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